Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

[Sword]

Salam alaykum.

My dear brothers and sisters, please watch this video below and share your thoughts.

Sunni Muslims vs Quran Alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4Oogq0djw


Regards.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Sword,

Wa alaikum assalam

Thank you for sharing this link.

In my humble view, the brother(s) that are arguing from a traditional perspective are correct on many fronts.

First of all, the argument regarding language is correct. I have discussed this in many of my writings and the post [1] below also summarises my position. The Quran cannot be understood without reliance on secondary sources.

In another post, I share the following:

• "Neither did the Quran invent a new language, nor was it intended to be a lexicon or dictionary. The Quran cannot be properly understood without relying on a vehicle to understand the language whether these are classical lexicons, spoken Arabic or else. Otherwise the Quran would be whittled down to something akin to Egyptian Hieroglyphics with no granodiorite stele such as the Rosetta Stone, or any other source to assist.
  
  Therefore, the Quran simply cannot be understood based on the book itself. It would become meaningless. It would be like giving an Arabic Quran to a community of Chinese speaking folk who know nothing of Arabic or its script and to ask them to translate the Book and use it as guidance. It would arguably be a preposterous suggestion.
  
  Therefore, I do believe that any 'source' that assists the understanding of the Quranic classical Arabic is implicitly ratified by the Quran (15:9) which assures the protection of the 'dhikr' which for me implies both the 'words' (kalam) and an appropriate ability to discern its meanings."

[2]

Furthermore, the question of the authenticity of the Ahadith corpus is also not founded on the unreliability of the classical Arabic language in which it is transmitted. Rather, it is founded on questionable content (matn) and transmission. The mere fact that the veracity of a particular hadith can be ‘questioned’ is proof that the ancient Arabic language in which the Ahadith is transmitted is accepted as reliable.

The other main point that was possibly being missed in the argument is that the 'Arabic language' or the 'authenticity' of the Ahadith corpus is not the main issue here.

From a Quran-centric perspective, the core contention is with the 'religious authority' of the secondary sources, especially in the corpus format we have received it today. The Quran provides no Divine religious authority for secondary sources as it does for itself. Utilising secondary sources to understand a language does not provide unfettered religious authority over all its contents. Therefore in the context of the video, just because one relies on secondary sources to understand the language of the Quran, does not automatically legitimise the secondary source corpus canonised centuries after the death of the prophet with Divine religious authority.

Sure, the secondary sources possess a wealth of wisdom and capture the practices of generations of Muslims in antiquity and how they interpreted the Quran in their respective eras, which we would be foolish to dismiss out of hand.  However, this corpus does not equate to 'Divine Scripture' and should always be open to intellectual critique and academic rigour. A particular 'sunna' can also be time bound as discussed in the article [3] below:

Finally, the 'ayats' (Quranic verses) and the 'hikmah' (wisdom) are indeed two separate notions. Albeit 'hikmah' (wisdom) can be 'extracted' from the verses of the Quran and applied in different contexts (as would have arguably be done at the time of the prophet), this does imply they are one of the same. The traditional brother is once again correct with his argument in this regards. I have discussed this in article [4] below and respectfully assert that 'hikmah' clearly denotes the 'enlightenment' or 'wisdom' one acquires from an accumulated body of work or knowledge.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] TWO CRUCIAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE 'QURANIST' (ISM) AND 'QURAN-CENTRIC' APPROACH
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/542672849203180
[2] Quran followers put on notice!
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1252.msg5872#msg5872
[3] TIME-BOUND SUNNA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/timebound%20sunna%20FM3.htm
[4] DOES 'HIKMAH' (WISDOM) MEAN SUNNA OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hikmah%20FM3.htm

[good logic]

Peace Sword.

Thank you for the link.
In my opinion,the "Quranist" has not used the argument that GOD put in Qoran properly .

Point number 1- Hikmah ,here is what GOD says about Qoran and Hikmah:
36:2 وَالقُرءانِ الحَكيمِ   Qoran is Hakeem
10:1 الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
3:58 ذٰلِكَ نَتلوهُ عَلَيكَ مِنَ الـٔايٰتِ وَالذِّكرِ الحَكيمِ
Hikmah is contained within Qoran itself,it is not outside it.

Point number 2 "Litubayyina linnas" is also contained in Qoran, i.e  Qoran ( Coming through you ) will do this
26:2 تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ المُبينِ Qoran is mubeen.
5:15مُبي يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ نٌ
The messenger is Qoran.
36:69 وَما عَلَّمنٰهُ الشِّعرَ وَما يَنبَغى لَهُ إِن هُوَ إِلّا ذِكرٌ وَقُرءانٌ مُبينٌ
i,e Messenger only brought Qoran.

Which leads to point number 3- Nothing else but Qoran:
6:51
وَأَنذِر بِهِ الَّذينَ يَخافونَ أَن يُحشَروا إِلىٰ رَبِّهِم لَيسَ لَهُم مِن دونِهِ وَلِىٌّ وَلا شَفيعٌ لَعَلَّهُم يَتَّقونَ
 "Bihi" is Qoran alone.

So,as far as the topic of that debate is concerned,Qoran should be the only source of "authority.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[wanderer]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Br. Joseph. I have a question for you however: You view the authenticity of the hadith corpus as irrelevant
in light of it being unsanctioned by the Quran. I would like to know however, how exactly do you view its authenticity? Is it mostly legitimate with perhaps a few errors in transmission, or mostly incorrect? Is there any way to gauge this? (e.g. Can/should we use Quran to see if some hadith are incorrect?) Besides academic study, what is the role they should play in our daily lives? While it may not be the biggest issue, I would argue that the authenticity of the hadith corpus is important to consider.
Regards
wanderer

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

You ask a very good question.

The authenticity of the Ahadith corpus is irrelevant from a 'religious authority' perspective. Even if the Ahadith were 100% authentic, this does not imply they have 'religious Divine sanction' for all humanity. For example, even the prophet had personal desires, likes, dislikes and was a product of his culture, community and setting within a certain slice of history. For example, if the prophet was born, say in China today, would he wear a thobe (dishdasha), use a miswak and / or ride a camel?  Would he apply generic Quranic verses in exactly the same manner in different societal contexts and given the varying needs of different communities with the same outcomes?

It is clear in my mind from my humble efforts studying the Ahadith literature and its provenance, that there are all sorts of influences on the corpus. Some may be pious additions, some a question of transmission errors, capture, some narratives biased with theological, political and sectarian viewpoints reflecting the milieu in which this corpus was filtered through the hands of fallible human beings. Of course, there may also possibly be many Ahadith that correctly capture the actual sentiments reflecting a particular practices and beliefs of believing communities in antiquity.

I have long argued that the 'Quran-centric' approach never dismisses any vestige or body of knowledge but engages with it, using the Quran as the criterion / filter / sieve. However, I also believe that for anyone to engage with a corpus such as the Ahadith, they should / must have a very good understanding of the Quran and the messages it imparts. It would be a futile endeavour to attempt to discern any body of knowledge / thought (particularly one that espouses to be of theological / religious significance such as the Ahadith) if one's understanding of the discerning criterion (The Quran) is weak.

In my humble view, the Ahadith corpus does have pearls of knowledge and wisdom. But it also has much which appears wholly incongruent with the Quran's guidance / verses / message. If anything, the Ahadith corpus can provide us insights into how the believers of antiquity practiced and understood their religion. This may have some significance in our daily lives or in particular Islamic cultures.

This corpus may also be of some academic value to understand the practices / thoughts of a certain people in antiquity even if some / much of the contents appear dubious. As I have shared on my website:

"It would, therefore, be improper to ignore or underestimate the significance of the Ahadith literature as a historical source even if its authenticity may appeal doubtful. The modern Occidentalists are of the opinion that in spite of the fact that Apocrypha are of doubtful authenticity, we can still peep through them into the social life and behaviour of their fabricators, hence their significance as a source of history should not be denied. Similarly, even such portions of the hadith material as have been declared fake, unauthentic and of doubtful nature, contain most valuable hints regarding one or the other aspect of the early Islamic society"   [1]

I have a Facebook post which you may also find interesting. I share an excerpt of humble note:

"Assess the traditions that have reached you in whatever culture you live in. Do not simply dismiss them but sharpen the ability to discern. Those traditions of your culture that fall within the spirit and guidance of the Quran, be free to embrace it. Those that do not, respectfully leave it aside or curtail your involvement in it." [2]

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] SINGH. N.K, Encyclopaedia Historiography of the Muslim World, Global Vision Publishing House, First Edition 2003, Page 319
[2] MY HUMBLE ADVICE
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/213495468787588
[3] The Approach Towards Hadeeth and Sunnah
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=497.msg1610#msg1610
[4] HOW I ENGAGE WITH THE SUNNAH AND WIDER ISLAMIC SECONDARY SOURCES SUCH AS THE AHADITH CORPUS
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/258274607643007

[good logic]

Peace Sword.
I would like to add one very important point to that debate,if I may.
GOD has clearly defined for us the role of Qoran and has shown us why GOD s argument in Qoran is the best.
Basically Qoran is all we need for our redemption/salvation.If anything else was important and essential for our salvation GOD would have told us to follow/use it. GOD did not forget to mention anything else:
 19:69 وَما نَتَنَزَّلُ إِلّا بِأَمرِ رَبِّكَ لَهُ ما بَينَ أَيدينا وَما خَلفَنا وَما بَينَ ذٰلِكَ وَما كانَ رَبُّكَ نَسِيًّا

Does GOD say that Qoran is fully detailed,complete and instructs the prophet to use Qoran alone?6:19
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ

Warn all generations with this Qoran. 6:114-115
أَفَغَيرَ اللَّهِ أَبتَغى حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ إِلَيكُمُ الكِتٰبَ مُفَصَّلًا وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعلَمونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ فَلا تَكونَنَّ مِنَ المُمتَرينَ
وَتَمَّت كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدقًا وَعَدلًا لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ

GOD s words are enough for salvation.
GOD has provided His words for Adam to redeem him,and GOD does the same for all humans. He provides His words  and insists they are sufficient for redemption.
The argument that Ahadiths are useful is nil as far as redemption is concerned. But if one  argues there is some other use for them like science,harry potter,medical books,history books and all sorts of other books,then fair enough.
However the debate was not about discussing useful books, it was specifically about Qoran alone is enough.
If we believe in GOD,then we should believe GOD as well,His words never run out.

Watching that debate ,this verse came to my mind:( many are not satisfied to use Qoran alone- QORAN WAHDAHU- they need other materials!)
17:46
...وَإِذا ذَكَرتَ رَبَّكَ فِى القُرءانِ وَحدَهُ وَلَّوا عَلىٰ أَدبٰرِهِم نُفورًا

Just thought I complete the picture. (Wa tilka hujjatuna...Theses verses- and many other verses- are GOD s argument that He provides for us in Qoran to use Qoran alone)
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ahmad]

Dear Brother Joseph,

Can you clarify your third point about Hikmah, as I did not understand it.

Finally, the 'ayats' (Quranic verses) and the 'hikmah' (wisdom) are indeed two separate notions. Albeit 'hikmah' (wisdom) can be 'extracted' from the verses of the Quran and applied in different contexts (as would have arguably be done at the time of the prophet), this does imply they are one of the same. The traditional brother is once again correct with his argument in this regards. I have discussed this in article [4] below and respectfully assert that 'hikmah' clearly denotes the 'enlightenment' or 'wisdom' one acquires from an accumulated body of work or knowledge.

If wisdom can be extracted from the Quran would this mean that they are the same thing ? And What is the traditional brother correct about ?



You also said:

The authenticity of the Ahadith corpus is irrelevant from a 'religious authority' perspective. Even if the Ahadith were 100% authentic, this does not imply they have 'religious Divine sanction' for all humanity. For example, even the prophet had personal desires, likes, dislikes and was a product of his culture, community and setting within a certain slice of history. For example, if the prophet was born, say in China today, would he wear a thobe (dishdasha), use a miswak and / or ride a camel?  Would he apply generic Quranic verses in exactly the same manner in different societal contexts and given the varying needs of different communities with the same outcomes?

If a hadith about the prophet's desires is 100% authentic, it would not imply that it has religious Divine sanction. I agree. But what about a hadith that is not about the prophets desires but instead about a clear command. (For example: X is Haram). If hypothetically speaking we consider it 100% authentic then it would follow that it has religious authority. As we cannot deny a command by the prophet, if we knew it was 100% authentic. What are your thoughts ?

Thank you

Regards,
Ahmed

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Ahmad,

As-salamu alaykum

Please kindly see my responses to your questions in blue italics below:

If wisdom can be extracted from the Quran would this mean that they are the same thing ? And What is the traditional brother correct about ?

A verse of the Quran (ayat) and wisdom (hikmah) are not necessarily the same thing.

'Hikmah' is interpreted and can be applied and understood in a number of ways. This is irrespective of what a verse may potentially say.  For example, there are numerous parables in the Quran. Wisdom can then be extracted and inferred from them. The argument of the Quran-alone brother appeared to be that a verse = hikmah as one of the same thing. This is not necessarily true and this is where the traditional brother was correct.

The traditional brother from the video was also correct when he argued his point linguistically that the conjunction ('wa') separates two separate notions (i.e. the Ayat and Wisdom) in verse 33:34. This is also supported by the Quran from a contextual perspective.

'Hikmah' has been mentioned numerous times in the Quran. For example, when God states that Prophet David was given wisdom (2:251), this does not mean he was given the verses of the Quran. This also applies to Luqman (31:12) and many other patriarchs / people mentioned in the Quran. Prophets received scriptures separately from wisdom (3:81). There are some / many today that potentially recite the verses of God but cannot extract wisdom from it.

Wisdom is a separate (often acquired) faculty.

Over the many years, I have seen the same verses with so many different nuances and applications. I have also seen the wisdom behind many verses which are simple commands. I am sure many brothers and sisters on this forum have also experienced this.

If a hadith about the prophet's desires is 100% authentic, it would not imply that it has religious Divine sanction. I agree. But what about a hadith that is not about the prophets desires but instead about a clear command. (For example: X is Haram). If hypothetically speaking we consider it 100% authentic then it would follow that it has religious authority. As we cannot deny a command by the prophet, if we knew it was 100% authentic. What are your thoughts ?

The Quran does not sanction any other source as with religious authority for believers. Therefore, no other source can add a command or instruction as 'Divine decree' which is not contained in the Quran. Therefore, your hypothetical question would appear problematic as a secondary source cannot purport to be 100% authentic and then with the same stroke, go against the Quran and add religious instruction / commands which the Quran does not support / mention. It is also noteworthy that a prophet could not make something haraam (forbidden) if God had not made it so. Verse 66.1 is a stark reminder of this.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph

[Wakas]

In addition, explanation of "hikmah" being from Quran: source.

The way I see it, al kitab is to do with what is written, whilst al hikma refers to determining/judgement/wisdom - the stuff behind the scenes. They are most definitely both to be found in al quran. That is why al quran is not simply a long list of rules/regulations because if it were, there would be an endless list! I used to wonder why al quran had so much stuff not dedicated to rules/regulations, at first to me it seemed unecessary but I soon realised the genius of it. By providing lessons, insights/wisdom, a message within the stories/examples it relates, it provides us with a basic framework within which to base our judgement on. This is key. It is this that equips us to deal with ANY situation not explicitly mentioned in al quran.

This is used all the time in real life. For example the story about the boy who cried wolf. If one read it literally and never thought about the story, all they would get is the al kitab part, but if they reflect upon and learn the lessons within the story, they will grasp the al hikma part. Thus, as you can see a written text can have both.

Simple example:

17:39 That (singular: thalika) is from what your Lord has inspired to you of the wisdom.... (obviously referring to the previous verses of Quran)

Background reading:
Chapter 7 http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm

[ahmad]

Dear Brother Joseph,

Thank you for you reply and clarification.
I agree that wisdom may not always mean the verses of the book. However there are many verses that state that indeed the verses = Hikmah. For example see the verses below.

[2:231]
 ... and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

Here wisdom was sent down like the book, implying that its synonymous with the verses of the Quran.

[3:58]
This, We recite to you of the verses and the Wise Remembrance.

[17:39]
That is of the wisdom your Lord has revealed to you ...

[36:2]
By the Wise Koran,


Furthermore "wa" can be also be used to provide further explanation, not only to separate two separate notions. For example:

[5:15]
... A light has come to you from Allah and a Clear Book,

The Light and the Clear book are the same thing.


So I think both views are correct. Wisdom may = the Verses and may mean the wisdom that is granted by God.

Do you agree with this conclusion ?

[good logic]

Peace Sword.
May I also add that in my opinion the traditional brother was not right about "hikmah" in that verse meaning other than Qoran because the verse said " Litubayyina linnasi ma nuzzila ilayhum" .here it means clearly the Qoran only.

The traditional brother was implying that this "hikmah" was given to the prophet alone to be explained( in hadiths) to people!!!

Where as the verse is saying "Ma nuzzila ilyhum" not "Ma zuzzila ilyka". May I add ,even if it said "Ma nuzzila ilyka" it can only mean Qoran alone,because GOD would not have left out of Qoran what was meant to reach other people if it was "nuzzila" from Him,since GOD says "everything is in Qoran" -Kitaban mufassala".

Also where would that leave us? An infinite sayings of the prophet that can be claimed "Nuzzila Ilyhi"?

The door was already open,through misunderstanding GOD s words to various books claiming are the words of the prophet!!!
Students  of Qoran ,in my opinion,should analyse this  problematic interpretation of "hikmah" that GOD talks about in Qoran is not outside Qoran.
I shall come back ,GOD willing, with a comprehensive collection of Qoran verses that leave no doubt that "all "hikmah" talked about in Qoran is not outside the scriptures( GOD s words).
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Ahmad

As-salamu alaykum

So I think both views are correct. Wisdom may = the Verses and may mean the wisdom that is granted by God.

Do you agree with this conclusion ?

Yes, I have absolutely no problem with this conclusion. This also supports my humble perspective where I said above:

"A verse of the Quran (ayat) and wisdom (hikmah) are not necessarily the same thing.". Please kindly note my reference to the phrase 'not necessarily' which supports your sentiment.

I feel it is always important to remember that wisdom entails broader understanding beyond the literal verse (which is also granted by God) and comes by the way of application after one has understood a body of knowledge / experience. This does not mean that one is sanctioning the Ahadith corpus with religious authority. I respectfully feel that those that claim otherwise (that wisdom is the same as the Quranic verses) have no warrant either in linguistics or Quranic context.

I hope that helps, God willing

Joseph

[good logic]

Quote from good logic:
I shall come back ,GOD willing, with a comprehensive collection of Qoran verses that leave no doubt that "all "hikmah" talked about in Qoran is not outside the scriptures( GOD s words).

I shall start by 2:29:
رَبَّنا وَابعَث فيهِم رَسولًا مِنهُم يَتلوا عَلَيهِم ءايٰتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الكِتٰبَ وَالحِكمَةَ وَيُزَكّيهِم إِنَّكَ أَنتَ العَزيزُ الحَكيمُ

 "Yatloo" to them your verses...and teach them the book and wisdom and purfy/cleanse/...them.
Why the verses come first? Simply because without them there will be none of what follows,how?
Again ,simply because the verses(Qoran) contain everything. Yes including the "Hikmah" and whatever is needed for the salvation:
6:38...Ma Farratna Fi Al-Kitabi Min Chaain"... We did not leave anything out of the book(Qoran). Yes Al-Kitab is Qoran,this same book here:16:89
وَيَومَ نَبعَثُ فى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهيدًا عَلَيهِم مِن أَنفُسِهِم وَجِئنا بِكَ شَهيدًا عَلىٰ هٰؤُلاءِ وَنَزَّلنا عَلَيكَ الكِتٰبَ تِبيٰنًا لِكُلِّ شَىءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحمَةً وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

This book-Qoran- Explation for  everything.
Actually these two verses tell us that Qoran contains EVERYTHING, there is NOTHING else needed outside it. I do not need to go further than this to show that the "Hikmagh" debated on that video is included inside Qoran.
However, I shall continue ,GOD willing, to provide other verses to analyse and ponder .
In my opinion,there is no doubt that the traditional brother s argument in the video is nullified here.The prophet was not bringing to us wisdom from outside Qoran.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[good logic]

Quote from good logic:
However, I shall continue ,GOD willing, to provide other verses to analyse and ponder .

Just to clarify ,the aim is to show from Qoran that the traditional brother s argument of "Hikmah" in the verse given by him is outside Qoran ,hence we should accept the prophet s sayings as well as Qoran is WRONG! i.e the prophet received other words from GOD besides Qoran and are meant to be used for our salvation as well as Qoran.

I start with this verse 33:2:
وَاتَّبِع ما يوحىٰ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ بِما تَعمَلونَ خَبيرًا
 Follow what is revealed to you.What has been revealed to the prophet for us?:6:19
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ
The most important witness(GOD) is witnessing that what was revealed to the prophet to be passed on to us is Qoran only (Hada Qoran). GOD did not forget to add other sayings or Hikmah that are not in Qoran!!! Do we believe GOD?11:1
الر كِتٰبٌ أُحكِمَت ءايٰتُهُ ثُمَّ فُصِّلَت مِن لَدُن حَكيمٍ خَبيرٍ
The wise has included His wisdom in Qoran.
Some may argue what about Luqman s wisdom? Luqman did not have "this Qoran"? Well GOD has detailed Luqman s wisdom in Qoran as a series of advice to his son. So yes, it is in Qoran.
The traditional brother/s ,may well argue and bring this verse,33:34:
وَاذكُرنَ ما يُتلىٰ فى بُيوتِكُنَّ مِن ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ وَالحِكمَةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ لَطيفًا خَبيرًا
Insisting the use of Arabic language entails that the verses and Hikmah are two separate things. Hence it implies to the sayings/teachings of the prophet.
Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen"  the Noor  is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
Actually the fallacy that is committed by those who say "How do you believe in the legitimacy of Qoran but not Ahadiths is their lack of belief in All of the (words of Allah) book(Qoran) and their willingness to accept contradictions and abrogations.
My simple answer to them is that the prophet must have lacked Hikmah before "this Qoran" :12:3
نَحنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيكَ أَحسَنَ القَصَصِ بِما أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ هٰذَا القُرءانَ وَإِن كُنتَ مِن قَبلِهِ لَمِنَ الغٰفِلينَ and other verses...He was "Dallan"...
They even say he was illeterate...etc
So the best argument one can give is if the Prophet received "Hikmah" it must have been from Qoran.
I shall continue,GOD willing,with this argument of GOD in Qoran that Qoran has everything to do with our salvation and nothing is required outside it, including Hikmah.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[Duster]

hence we should accept the prophet s sayings as well as Qoran is WRONG!

Good logic .......where did the traditional brother say this in the video? He may be inplying this but the focus on the point of discussion was if ayat and hikmah were the same thing......

I think you missed the point on this thread too.....no one is saying hikmah means you have to accept the hadith .....hikmah can be beyond that...i think you are missing the point...again.

What is being agreed to is that hikmah can and may not be just the simple verses.