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Offline IjazAhmad

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Brother Joseph, a little help here.. thanks!
« on: April 29, 2017, 04:16:11 AM »
As-salāmu 'alaykum brother Joseph!

I found this online, I would be grateful if you who have immense knowledge and have helped many people with your fabulous articles and of course, your time. Can you please read this and give some answers? JazakAllāh.



The aim of this article is to expose some ridiculous claims and failed challenges made by the Quran, and its constant appeal to human ignorance of science and worldly facts.

(I) Quran's self defeating challenge to find contradictions in it:

4:82 - Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

The most interesting thing about this challenge is that one only needs to go back four verses to see how it fails miserably. Here we have back to back verses contradicting each other:

4:78 - Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

In the above verse, Allah criticizes people for accepting that good is from Allah while blaming others for evil. Allah affirms that all things (good and evil) are from himself. However in the very next verse Allah contradicts this, claiming that any evil that befalls a person is from the person himself.

4:79 - What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.

Now let's go to another clear contradiction - whether intercession (the act of a person requesting forgiveness for the sins of another person to save the latter from hell fire) will be acceptable on the day of judgement.

The following three verses clearly say NO to ANY sort of intercession being acceptable on the judgement day:

2:48 - And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided.

2:123 - And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.

6:51 - And warn by the Qur'an those who fear that they will be gathered before their Lord - for them besides Him will be no protector and no intercessor - that they might become righteous.

The following three verses however say YES to the idea that intercession is acceptable - to those whom Allah permits:

20:109 - That Day, no intercession will benefit except [that of] one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word.

34:23 - And intercession does not benefit with Him except for one whom He permits.

53:26 - And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves.

(II) The challenge to bring a Surah (chapter) like one in the Quran:

2:23 to 2:24 - And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a Surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

10:38 - Or do they say [about the Prophet], "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful."

Notice that Allah challenges those who doubt the Quran to produce a chapter like one in the book, claiming that this challenge cannot be ever met. Let's put aside all the magnificent poetries, philosophical writings, and delightful novels and stories that people have produced over the ages from time immemorial. The sheer stupidity of this challenge can be shown by simply looking at certain chapters in the Quran. Let's take a look at one of them - chapter 111 of the Quran:

111:1 to 111:5 - May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he. His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained. He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame. And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood. Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

And that's it - the whole chapter. How beautiful! A whole chapter dedicated just to condemn some guy and his wife into hellfire and torture. Anyone can easily produce a much more valuable chapter than this. Nothing more needs to be added here.

(III) How the Quran tries to validate itself, appealing to human ignorance:

13:2 - It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne and made subject the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain.

Implies that the "heavens" or objects that we can see in the atmosphere or beyond like planets or stars (depending on how people translate the word heavens) have invisible pillars supporting them from Earth. For those who argue that it implies no pillars at all, then the verse conveys that the atmosphere or celestial objects just being there is something miraculous. Either way this verse directly appeals to human ignorance of the basics of how gravity works.

16:15 - And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided.

Mountains are in fact formed in the least stable parts of the Earth, and such regions are more prone to earthquakes or landslides. The claim of mountains holding the Earth firm is hence a laughable one. Also notice how Allah claims that rivers and roads were made so that humans would be guided. This is a strange enough claim with rivers, but seriously was Allah unaware that it was humans who made the roads on Earth?

16:79 - Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe.

Back then, people really didn't know the basics of aerodynamics. Hence the idea that it is God who holds the birds up in the sky from falling down would seem credible and wonderful to those who hear it. This is projected as a sign for people to validate the Quran.

31:31 - Do you not see that ships sail through the sea by the favor of Allah that He may show you of His signs? Indeed in that are signs for everyone patient and grateful.

Again, claiming that ships sailing through the sea and not sinking is by the favor of Allah. We can see one of the repeated attempts at self-validation over here. Of course, the ignorance of basic hydrodynamics can make this feel wonderful.

(IV) Some dubious claims that any believer should think about:

15:26 - And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.

Claims that humans were created from clay by shaping black mud.

16:8 - And [He created] the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and [as] adornment.

Claims that horses, mules and donkeys were created by God for humans to ride and decoration or show.

CONCLUSION: I'm not stressing much on the scientific or factual inaccuracy here, but rather the ridiculous nature of these claims made by the Quran. I invite anyone who believes in the divine nature of the Quran to ponder over these claims and the failed attempts at self-validation. It should be pretty clear to anyone who reads over this article with an unbiased mind that the Quran cannot possibly be from a divine being, if at all a divine being exists.

Offline Amira

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Re: Brother Joseph, a little help here.. thanks!
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2017, 09:56:06 AM »
Salaam

My only advice is to avoid going through claims like this. This seems directly copied from Answering Islam, which is notorious for making questionable claims and executing numerous logical fallacies while attempting to degrade the Quran.

I'm not going to give any specific responses to your queries, but please ignore arguments like these. The Quran's divinity stands up to systematic scrutiny, and if you examine Answering Islam's (mis)arguments, they all fall apart.
“Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib: I heard the Apostle of Allah say: In eloquence there is magic, in knowledge ignorance, and in poetry wisdom”

“Historically, what is or isn’t mainstream (in Islam) has always been a function of power, not of truth.” (Iyad El-Baghdadi, Arab Spring activist)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Brother Joseph, a little help here.. thanks!
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 05:01:51 PM »
Asalamu Alykum IjazAhmad

Insha'Allah I will try to give my humble thoughts about the comments you had shared.

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(I) Quran's self defeating challenge to find contradictions in it:

4:82 - Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

The most interesting thing about this challenge is that one only needs to go back four verses to see how it fails miserably. Here we have back to back verses contradicting each other:

4:78 - Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

In the above verse, Allah criticizes people for accepting that good is from Allah while blaming others for evil. Allah affirms that all things (good and evil) are from himself. However in the very next verse Allah contradicts this, claiming that any evil that befalls a person is from the person himself.

4:79 - What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.

Now let's go to another clear contradiction - whether intercession (the act of a person requesting forgiveness for the sins of another person to save the latter from hell fire) will be acceptable on the day of judgement.

I think verse 4:78 is revealing to the believers their wrong sayings and lack of faith when blaming the Prophet(pbuh) for their short comings in their lives. They are attributing any bad things happening to the Prophet when they should know that God could have stopped it and what ever of bad things that happened was destined to happen. The Prophet really cannot do anything about it. They should rightfully be understanding that everything all causes and effects are from God. So ultimately everything good and bad is from God or God has allowed everything to happen.

At the same stroke whatever of good things happen this should always be known it is from God as He is the One who makes it happen and the good things should be rightfully appreciated and thanks should be given to God. Believers should be grateful and thankful for the good things. Any bad things that happen is ultimately from the actions of humans which God has allowed it to play its course. As He created everything.

Also to keep in mind as an example God fixes or straightens people crooked actions and ways to a better or straighter way as a blessing from Himself. This should not be attributed to peoples own power or intelligence but believer attribute this path of adjustment to God as He is the one who gave the capability to the person or people.


Quote
The following three verses clearly say NO to ANY sort of intercession being acceptable on the judgement day:

2:48 - And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided.

2:123 - And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.

6:51 - And warn by the Qur'an those who fear that they will be gathered before their Lord - for them besides Him will be no protector and no intercessor - that they might become righteous.

The following three verses however say YES to the idea that intercession is acceptable - to those whom Allah permits:

20:109 - That Day, no intercession will benefit except [that of] one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word.

34:23 - And intercession does not benefit with Him except for one whom He permits.

53:26 - And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves.

I simply do not see any contradiction because in the first 3 verses God is giving a warning and a reminder to humans that there will be a day where nothing will be judge or have any ruling except God Himself. These verses are speaking about that it is only in God's will that things will happen and after judgement is made no intercession can avail or repel the decision made by God. No ransom no intercession no nothing.

The other verses seem to state that God may or may not allow people, angels, etc to speak or act in whatever ways like be witnesses for example messengers will be witnesses on the Day of Judgement by God's permission. Even if messengers or angels speak good on behalf of people and were witnesses to good things, these will not be accepted only after God The Almighty has approved.

Furthermore there is more wisdom that can be expressed from the verses as others may share Insha'Allah.

Quote
(II) The challenge to bring a Surah (chapter) like one in the Quran:

2:23 to 2:24 - And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a Surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

10:38 - Or do they say [about the Prophet], "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful."

Notice that Allah challenges those who doubt the Quran to produce a chapter like one in the book, claiming that this challenge cannot be ever met. Let's put aside all the magnificent poetries, philosophical writings, and delightful novels and stories that people have produced over the ages from time immemorial. The sheer stupidity of this challenge can be shown by simply looking at certain chapters in the Quran. Let's take a look at one of them - chapter 111 of the Quran:

111:1 to 111:5 - May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he. His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained. He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame. And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood. Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

And that's it - the whole chapter. How beautiful! A whole chapter dedicated just to condemn some guy and his wife into hellfire and torture. Anyone can easily produce a much more valuable chapter than this. Nothing more needs to be added here.

Brother Joseph has written an article on this topic and the verses stated.[1]

If one actually accepts and considers that the Quran was not revealed all at once and was indeed revealed in stages which can be verified from the verses of the Quran (25:32, 17:106) then the verses in subject can be easily understood.

If verse 10:38 is read with the previous and following verses 10:37-38 one can capture the intention of the verse or the challenge being made to those who were receiving the Quran.

10:37-39
And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be invented in despite of Allah; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and an exposition of that which is decreed for mankind - Therein is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.
Or say they: He hath invented it? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.
Nay, but they denied that, the knowledge whereof they could not compass, and whereof the interpretation (in events)[walamma yatihim ta'weeluhu] hath not yet come unto them. Even so did those before them deny. Then see what was the consequence for the wrong-doers!


The word "ta'weel" can be interpreted as "full explanation".

If we go read the story of the messenger Joseph (pbuh) and how he was given a dream from God and also given the power to interpret dreams he did not know the full interpretation (ta'weel) of his dream until he actually lived to see the actual happening of the moment. He had said in verse 12:100 to his father that this is the interpretation of my dream of old. Joseph(pbuh) was a young boy when he saw the dream but it was not until later on in his life after the actual events happened that he was actually able to grasp the full interpretation(ta'weel) of what the dream meant.

Taking this inconsideration, God was asking those people who are accusing the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) of inventing this Quran to complete the next chapters or give one that correlates or expounds on what has already been revealed. But they cannot do that because they would need to know the knowledge of the chapters that has already been revealed and they would need to know how to complete the Quran without any contradictions and they would need to know the future live events that are going to happen. Therefore they could not do it and never will as they do not understand its full interpretation and explanation.

Insha'Allah the point that makes sense.


Quote
(III) How the Quran tries to validate itself, appealing to human ignorance:

13:2 - It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne and made subject the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain.

Implies that the "heavens" or objects that we can see in the atmosphere or beyond like planets or stars (depending on how people translate the word heavens) have invisible pillars supporting them from Earth. For those who argue that it implies no pillars at all, then the verse conveys that the atmosphere or celestial objects just being there is something miraculous. Either way this verse directly appeals to human ignorance of the basics of how gravity works.

What I think this writer fails to realize is that its the science and gravity and all the amazing things that God has created that believers are so fascinated about and its just that, which makes them certain of the meeting with their Lord Insha'Allah. Its the pondering and sighting of the great creation and the unexplained and explained things that makes believers certain about their faith in God. That they see a definite Designer and One who can do anything even hold great objects and heavens without any sort of support.


Quote
16:79 - Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe.

Back then, people really didn't know the basics of aerodynamics. Hence the idea that it is God who holds the birds up in the sky from falling down would seem credible and wonderful to those who hear it. This is projected as a sign for people to validate the Quran.

I do not agree that people back then did not know the basics of aerodynamics. I'm sure they understood some sort things about it. But what is forgotten is that the law of aerodynamics and the gravity and wind is all governed and controlled by God. How He does that is all up to Him. Sometimes we see thunderstorms, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. This is all by God's will. The movement of the seas and oceans is all by His governance and commands.

Quote
31:31 - Do you not see that ships sail through the sea by the favor of Allah that He may show you of His signs? Indeed in that are signs for everyone patient and grateful.

Again, claiming that ships sailing through the sea and not sinking is by the favor of Allah. We can see one of the repeated attempts at self-validation over here. Of course, the ignorance of basic hydrodynamics can make this feel wonderful.

Again one gives thanks and is grateful to the Lord for making the seas and oceans calm and easy to move through them. If this was not governed by the Lord, and is left to its own will then we might not know anything how it will react. Why are there severe winds or waves? Why is not everyday and every moment the same? What is logic of winds speeding and slowing down? What tells it to stop or keep moving or which direction to go forth? Is not God in full control of them all? Believers know very well God is aware of all things and all time, and is in full control.

Quote
(IV) Some dubious claims that any believer should think about:

15:26 - And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.

Claims that humans were created from clay by shaping black mud.

Whatever other reasoning is to how humans were formed or came to earth would possibly be more harder to imagine or far-fetched than that what the verse is stating from a scientific point of view. Although I do not find this verse at all far-fetched or unimaginable as one does indeed ponder as to how humans actually came to being, how did they get on earth or develop.

Did they just "form" in thin air from nothing? Did they fall from the sky? Did they come from another planet? Did they transform from another species even if they did how did they develop(I'm not saying they did either) or did they form gradually from clay?

The obvious case is that the first human or humans were created from clay by God's will. He has produced us from the ground.

Quote
16:8 - And [He created] the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and [as] adornment.

Claims that horses, mules and donkeys were created by God for humans to ride and decoration or show.

I do not see any problems.

Quote
CONCLUSION: I'm not stressing much on the scientific or factual inaccuracy here, but rather the ridiculous nature of these claims made by the Quran. I invite anyone who believes in the divine nature of the Quran to ponder over these claims and the failed attempts at self-validation. It should be pretty clear to anyone who reads over this article with an unbiased mind that the Quran cannot possibly be from a divine being, if at all a divine being exists.

I do not find anything ridiculous Alhamdulila. All the claims seem to actually fit perfectly in ones harmony and give an ease to ones heart and an assurance to the Great Mighty Lord and the source of the Quran.

Insha'Allah peace and blessings :)

[1] PRODUCE A SURAH LIKE IT - THE CHALLENGE OF THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/produce%20a%20surah%20FM3.htm