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Offline Mohammed

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Swalah times
« on: July 06, 2017, 05:11:27 PM »
Dear All,
Assalaamu 'Alaikum,

Firstly, my humble suggestion is that whenever we are reading a verse/ part of a verse(with a complete meaning) from the Qur'an (whether we are reading it as a reminder/ reading as a part of analyzing the verse/ reading it as a part of an article etc.) we should seek refuge with Allah from shaitha'n, the cursed (16:98). And we should start reading it with the name of Allah, The Merciful, The Compassionate (96:1).

Now let us come to the topic,
I saw the article in QM website ‘The Five Prayers from The Qur’an, I found some differences in it and I am sharing it here for your consideration.

In the Fajr Prayer section the author stated as follows:-
The end of the night can be perfectly reconciled with the actual moment at which the sun starts to lighten the sky whilst remaining well below the horizon. The end of the day would be the point at which the sun's rays no longer illuminate the sky.”

But how one can determine the end point of day or night precisely ?,
Allah says to the Prophet and believers;
”...and God predestines/evaluates the night and the daytime, He knew that you (will) not count/compute it...”(73:20)

i.e. even the Prophet is not given with such information.

Consider the verse 10:67, It says that the sign of day is being able to see

“He is who made/created for you the night to be tranquil/quiet in it, and the daytime to see, that in that (are) evidences/signs to a nation hearing/listening”.

If end of the day is as the author stated, then the point just before the complete disappearance of sun’s rays is part of day time, but at this moment we will not be able to see anything, it will be dark. i.e. the above statement will be against the verse (10:67)

Let us analyse some other verses,

1. “And an evidence/sign for them (is) the night, We skin off/uncover from it the daytime, so then they are darkened/in darkness”. (36:37)
-i.e. darkness is sign of night.

2. The term “Wazulafan mina llaili” (and two approaches from the night)[11:114] indicates that night includes a part of the twilight period i.e. even though the sun’s rays are illuminating the sky, if the location(land) we stand is dark, then it is part of the night (from both sides of night). So we cannot measure when night/day starts/ends precisely.
*in the above mentioned article the word 'two' is absent in translation for the Arabic term 'zulafan' , since the term having an 'alif' at the end, it represents dual (this is my interpretation with my limited knowledge in Arabic grammar), and Al Mawarid dictionary also gives the same.

So the portion of the twilight in which we are able to see is part of day and the remaining is part of night and this night's part from the twilight represents the term 'zulafan mina llaili' (two approaches from the night) i.e. from both the ends, but in the article the term is mistranslated.

Now, let us consider the two verses in which the periods for the Swalah are mentioned. Note that these are the only verses I found which starts with the term 'Aqimisswalatha' (which means keep up the Prayer) and mentioning the periods of the Prayer.

“And keep up the prayers at (the) two ends/edges (of) the daytime and the two approaches from the night; that the goodnesses wipe off/eliminate the sins/crimes, that (is) a remembrance/reminder to the praising/glorifying”.(11:114)

“Start/keep up the prayers for the sun's rubbing(with the horizon) /setting to(till) the night's darkness, and the dawn's  Qur’an, that the dawn's Qur’an was/is being witnessed”.(17:78)

from the above two verses we can connect the periods like this,

1. Sunset to night's darkness (17:78) equivalent to, one end of the day + one approaching part from the night (11:114)
2. Fajr (17:78) equivalent to, another end of the day + another approaching part from the night (11:114)

So the verse 17:78 gives a better explanation for the verse 11:114.

With this understanding if we are examining the verses 11:114 and 17:78 we can observe that the two verses are repeatedly saying about two prayers (Fajr and Isha’) at two periods (dawn, to sunrise + sunset to full night/complete darkness).

So many translations say that the arabic term 'wa' used in 11:114 ('Wazulafan') is, as an indication of separation of time, but when we are analysing Qur'anic texts we can find so many places where the term 'wa' is used as an approachment of simultaneous action, for example see the Surah 113,

1. 'Say: "I seek protection with/by Lord/master/owner (of) the daybreak/creation."
2. "From bad/evil/harm (of) what He created."
3. "And from bad/evil/harm (of an) intense dark night/moon, when/if (it) penetrated through body pores/spread/approached."
4. "And from bad/evil/harm (of) the female magicians/sorceresses/dischargers in the knots."
5. "And from bad/evil/harm (of) an envious with jealousy, when/if he envied with jealousy."

Here, the first two verses itself covers the whole creation, still the 3rd, 4th and 5th verses starts with 'wa' which doesn't mean the mentioned things in 3-5 verses are separate things out of creation.

So  in a day for a believer, the time for the prayers starts from the fajr (i.e. when sunlight first begins to appear)and ends at the complete darkness; more clearly, from the appearance of first ray of light to the disappearance of last ray of light.

In traditional system of Prayers, the time of Isha prayer starts from the complete darkness. This I believe, is not Quranic, because Qur'an says us to pray till night’s darkness (17:78) and not from night’s darkness.

And the verse 2:238,

“Observe/guard on the prayers, and the prayer the middle, and stand/call to God obeying/worshiping humbly”.

Here the verse tells to observe some prayers + the middle prayer, this may be because the prayers other than the middle prayer already mentioned in the verse 24:58 and their periods in 11:114 and 17:78.
Also as the term wusthwa (mid most/justly balanced) is used here, this more likely seems, to perform at the midst of other prayers, i.e. at midday. But when we are considering the traditional system of 5 prayers, we cannot find a justly balanced time for Swalatul wusthwa.
And Allah knows the best.

I request you to share your kind suggestions on my thoughts.
Regards,

Offline Wakas

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Re: Swalah times
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 11:28:46 AM »

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalah times
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 01:08:27 PM »
Assalaamu 'Alaikum

Dear Wakas,
I wish to remind you this verse:
"...and Allah predestines/evaluates the night and the daytime, He knew that you (will) not count/compute it...”(73:20)

i.e. even the Prophet is not given with such information. Then why are you trying to determine it ? Why you are wasting your time ?

And you translated the Surah 91 as follows,

[91:1] By the sun and its brightness.
[91:2] And the moon that follows it.
[91:3] And the "nahar" (day) that reveals it.
[91:4] And the "layl" (night) that covers it.

here for the arabic term 'idha' you have given the meaning 'that'. At the same time in the same discussion in your first reply you translated the term 'fa-idha' (36:37) as whereupon.

The more appropriate meaning for the term 'idha' from the Qur'an, is when/if.

Therefor, the literal meaning for the verses 3&4 of Surah 91 can be:

3. And/by the daytime ('nahar') when/if it shined/revealed it.
4. And/by the night ('layl') when/if it covers/darkens it.

[ Note that in the above two verses the verbs used are in different forms (underlined) ]

Thus from the 3rd verse, we can interpret, the sunrise happens at daytime i.e., even before the sunrise it is day already.

Also, consider the verse 10:67. It says that the sign of day is being able to see

“He is who made/created for you the night to be tranquil/quiet in it, and the daytime to see(to make things visible), that in that (are) evidences/signs to a nation hearing/listening”.

In the above thread you are trying to misinterpret this verse by giving the example of full moon night. I totally disagree with that.

How do you compare the light in full moon night with the light in twilights ?
Can you identify an object in full moon night as you identify it at just after sunset/just before sunrise ?

Finally, when analysing various Qur'anic verses, it is clear that we can't determine a precise end point for day and night. And the verse 73:20 confirms it.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Swalah times
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 09:09:00 PM »
w/salaam,

Dear mohammed,

Firstly, the context of 73:20 makes it obvious what that phrase is referring to, and that is not counting how much of day/night is being spent on reading/studying Quran or how much time one has left so do so etc, hence the use of "fa" connecting the statements together, and nothing to do with determining end point of day/night.

Secondly, I do not accept your re-translation of 91:3-4 makes any difference, and does not follow that "the sunrise happens at daytime i.e., even before the sunrise it is day already."

Thirdly, my point was one can still see somewhat in a full moon night. Anyone can test this out for themselves. If you disagree, each to their own.


Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalah times
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 04:08:44 AM »
Dear All,
Assalaamu 'alaikum

After a further analysis of the verses 11:114, 17:78, 24:58, 20:130, 50:39-40, 2:144,149-150, 76:25-26, 17:79, 62: 9-11 and 2:238, to the best of my knowledge the timed Swalah of the believers is twice daily.

Thank you.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalah times
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 05:24:56 AM »
You may find this thread helpful:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1152.0

Salaam All,

Dear Wakas,

What do you think about the interpretation of the term 'tarafayinnahaari' (two terminals/ends of the daytime) [Al Qur’an 11:114], as the brighter parts of both the twilights (at which solar illumination suffices for the human eye to clearly distinguish terrestrial objects. i.e. not limiting ‘tarafayinnahaari’ just to sunrise/sunset/a specific point in time).

Offline Wakas

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Re: Swalah times
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2018, 08:59:31 PM »
peace,

Based on my Quran studies, I consider it daytime when any part of the sun disc is above horizon, thus the two edges of daytime would be sunrise (sun disc begins to appear above horizon) and sunset (sun disc begins to dip below horizon).