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Offline Ahmad

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What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« on: August 21, 2017, 06:42:06 PM »
As Salam Alaykum,

Does the Torah the Quran mentions, refer to only the Five books of Moses and not all the old testament ?
Similarly, Does the Injeel the Quran mentions refer to only the four gospels of the new testament and not all the new testament ?

Thank you

Regards,
Ahmad

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 07:13:01 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum Ahmad

In my humble opinion I do think that when the Quran mentioned the Torah it is referring only to the five books of Moses. As there does seem to be an indication that also other Scriptures were also given to the Children of Israel by verse 3:84.

3:84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Him we are submissive" 

The Jewish Scriptures mainly consist of the Tanakh which contains:

Torah (five books of Moses)
Nevi'im (prophets)
Ketuvim (writings)

I think when the Quran mentions the Torah it is directly referring to the Torah (five books of Moses). When the Quran refers to other Scriptures it does seem to indicate which ones. The mention of the book given to prophet David 4:163. The scriptures given to the prophets seem to be highlighted and confirmed by verse 3:84 which are possibly the Nevi'im.

4:163 Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].

Also from verse 5:68 the Torah does seem to stand out from other revelations that was sent to the People of the Book which indicates that the Torah is not the same as the others.

5.68 "Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"


One question I have regarding this topic is, are the "suhuf Moses" that is mentioned in in 87:19 the same as the Torah?

Insha'Allah others will give their opinions as well on this as the mention of suhuf Ibrahim is also mentioned and I wonder that since the writings of Ibrahim seems to be a book that does not exist(just an assumption) as I do not know any collection of it, then possibly then are the writings of Moses also not in existence as the Quran is just reminding us that all thats been said in Surah 87 a reminder and that this has been said in the scrolls of Moses and Ibrahim?

As I read that the Torah does not indicate any mention of afterlife or the punishment.


87:9 -19
Therefor remind (men), for of use is the reminder.
He will heed who feareth
But the most hapless will flout it,
He who will be flung to the great Fire
Wherein he will neither die nor live.
He is successful who groweth,
And remembereth the name of his Lord, so prayeth,
But ye prefer the life of the world
Although the Hereafter is better and more lasting.
Lo! This is in the former scrolls.
The Books of Abraham and Moses.


The Injeel the Quran mentions does indicate the wisdom that was given to Prophet Jesus(pbuh). In my opinion it would be any truth that was captured and written down. The Christians are expected to obey those teachings and it would be on them to figure out all the authentic manuscripts that they have. As far as I know there seems to be evidence that the non-canonical Gospels do contain some truth as the Quran confirms some narratives in them. Although in the main the Christians do not consider the non-canonical Gospels authentic(also just an assumption) the Injeel the Quran speaks of does indicate that its can be from all the manuscripts that exist and can be confirmed as truth. Please read the article below for more elaboration on this topic.

Salam bro

WHAT IS THE INJEEL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm

Offline good logic

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 01:45:26 PM »
Peace .
In my view Qoran does not say Moses was given the Torah,nor does it say it is any particular(Five) books.
Qoran mentions Totah sent to Beni Israeel and the "Furqaan"/book to Moses and Haroon.

The indication,according to my understanding,is that Torah  includes what was given to Moses plus other/ what was given to prophets of Beni Israeel after Moses.

In other words Torah may be present in some  books of the old testament. How many or what books is still not clear. Future research/es may shed more light on this particular topic.

I am of the opinion that Qoran has rendered that task easy. It confirms and supersedes both Torah and Injeel.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Offline Ahmad

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 04:03:38 PM »
Thank you brother Hamza and Brother Good logic for your replies.

Brother Hamza, I have some comments about your post.

From the verses you shared, I did not see any explicit indication that the children of Israel were obliged to follow scriptures other than the Torah. Maybe they did it out of choice, but I can't find where are they were commanded in the Quran to do so. So could you please elaborate on the issue ?


Also I read brother Joseph's view regarding the Injeel. But he only used implicit arguments. And I found that other verses could be used to suggest the the injeel was indeed a book. Such as:

[19:30]
[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
ِArguably the scripture or (Ketab in Arabic) here is the injeel.

ِAlso from what I understood, If we say that Injeel is only the wisdom imparted to prophet jesus, would that mean that its not the direct word of God. And only Jesus' own words. If that is the case, then I believe it would be a problematic assertion that would not be in harmony with verses like:

[3:3]
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

The word Revealed or (Anzal in Arabic) is used for both the Torah and Injeel. It is also used with the Quran. I believe that would imply the same mode of inspiration. Which would arguably be God's direct word (like the Torah and Quran). Not Prophet Jesus' wisdom.

I do not intend to enter a debate, I would just like to know what are your thoughts.

Thanks again for your reply :)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 08:33:03 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Ahmad

I apologize for not getting back to your comments.

Before I give my opinion to your questions I would like to just clarify some issues to the best of my understanding Insha'Allah.

First I would have to say that anytime God tells us about revealing the ketab I would be inclined to argue that would be any vestige of knowledge authorized by God to be part of Revelation. Whether it came through direct inspiration or a command to carry out a task to make a revalation by God's will.

The Quran tells us that the Quran is directly God's words dictated to prophet Muhammad through a medium.

There does seem to be a differance in how the revelations were transmitted to prophet Muhammad, Moses and Jesus (pbut) and how they were commanded to reveal the message. The final message seems to be intended to guard and correct all the signs and manifestations that happened before it. As those before it had different trials.

When God tells His prophets to reveal a message or law that would still be attributed to be revealed by God. A whole life time of a prophet (example Jesus) maybe a revelation as he spoke and acted according to God's will. They were given authority to carry out God's mesage to their people.

Prophet Jesus is said to be given the ketab as you kindly noted in verse 19:30. He is also noted to be given the Injeel in verse 5:46.

The Injeel would be part of the Ketab. The knowledge and wisdom that he was given was not from Jesus. Jesus was a human being who carried God's words. That could be what is ment by verses 3:46 and 4:171(A word from Him). God knows best.

Similarly the ketab was given to prophet Moses. It was also refered to as the furqan(criterion) in other verses. It does not say explicitly that he was given the Torah to my recollection but there does seem to be evidence from verse 5:44 that even the prophets who came after Moses were using the Torah to judge the Jews. But they would still have revelations of their own.

Also the Jews and Children if Israel are arguably the same people and at times they are also being included in being part of the people of the Book. God knows best.

Verse 3:84 does show that revelations to prophets were revealed. It does not seem like God needed to reveal all the prophets He gave a revelation to as there seems to be people already familiar with them.

The Quran in verse 5:68 does confirm that other revelations other than the Torah and the Injeel was revealed to the people of the Book which is why I would kindly disagree with brother good logics comments that the Torah is what is revealed to Moses and the prophets of the children of Israel.

Also the Quran does command the Jews to judge by the Torah. Which indicates that the Torah is well known to them. There does not seem to be a reason to doubt that what is known to the Jews as the Torah as being the 5 books of Moses not true.

Also the Quran calls the Children of Israel to believe in the Quran as its a confirmation to what they have. Readers will realize that the Quran confirms stories that is not what is considered the Torah only. It confirms narratives that is after Moses time.

God knows best. Insha'Allah I'll look into this a little more and will see if any one has any other ideas I'll post them.

Salam

Offline good logic

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 03:30:08 PM »
Peace Hamzeh.
When you say ,quote:
Also the Quran does command the Jews to judge by the Torah. Which indicates that the Torah is well known to them. There does not seem to be a reason to doubt that what is known to the Jews as the Torah as being the 5 books of Moses not true.

I say Qoran does not confirm that Torah was given to Moses,it does however confirm that Torah was sent to Beni  Israeel .
Qoran also confirm that Moses brought a book/furquan/scripture.
From this, I am deducing that Torah could be what Moses brought plus other inspired scripture/s to other prophets of Beni Israeel.Otherwise Qoran would have clearly said that Moses received the Torah. It did not.

Also, I am not saying plus all the prophets of Beni Israeel as we know David received the Psalms and Jesus the Injeel.
I am also saying ,I have not found to date something concrete that pins Torah into being 5 or more books. They are all theories and assumptions,unless of course one can provide clear evidence from Qoran.
Other than that ,I agree it requires more research and study.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 07:00:40 AM »
Peace to you to Good logic

You said
Quote
I say Qoran does not confirm that Torah was given to Moses,it does however confirm that Torah was sent to Beni  Israeel .
Qoran also confirm that Moses brought a book/furquan/scripture.

Does not the Quran say that Moses was sent to the Children of Israel? When God speaks to the Children of Israel He reminds them of how He delivered them from Pharaoh and so on. Therefor if the Torah was sent to the Children of Israel it is a possibility that its whats Moses was given.

Also there is a indication what the Torah contains. In verse 5:45 God tells us a part of what He commanded in the Torah.

5:45 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.


When one encounters the Old Testament you would notice that this command resonates in what we call the 5 books of Moses which is the Torah as they know it.

Exodus 21:23
"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

Exodus 21:24
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Deuteronomy 19:21
"Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Leviticus 24:19
'If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21'Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.…



Those are verses from 4 of the 5 books.

At the end God knows best.

May God bless you to brother

Salam



 

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 08:50:57 AM »
Salam

Just a correction

Should of typed that those verses are from 3 out of the 5 books of Moses.

Peace


Offline good logic

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 02:24:34 PM »
Yes brother Hamzeh, 5:45 and other verses are the reason I am saying Torah  includes the book  of Moses .

As for what exactly  is the Torah  in regards to the old testament, Which books that is,requires more research/study.
 I cannot find clear/explicit verses telling us this yet.
So ,I am open to hear views.
 Also ,God willing I will look into this in some details when I finish my current project on "who are the different  "Alladin Aamanu" GOD addresses in Qoran ? Plus who does GOD address in Qoran and why?

This project is taking me few weeks up to now  because the verses are many ,for example why does GOD ask "Alladina Aamanu" to believe in Him? You would think "Alladina Aamanu" have already believed( This topic is proving to be complex,I shall share it in future to hear some thoughts on it?)...etc

I will come back to this thread,God willing, soon.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Ahmad

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2017, 10:58:27 PM »
Thank you for your answer

Offline Duster

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 11:33:05 PM »
Shalom / peace.....a possible related thread below

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2191.msg11216#msg11216

Offline Ahmad

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 11:57:20 PM »
Thank you :)

Offline Aijaz

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Re: What constitutes the Torah and the Injeel today ?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2018, 03:40:14 AM »
Allah refers to His message in Book form as 'Al-Kitab'. There are other attributes of this message i.e when it is remembered its called Az-Zikr, when it is recited its called 'Al-Quran', when it is used by people as knowledge its referred to as Ilm and Noor. When narrations are set forth and events narrated in it, it is 'Ahsan al Hadith'. So this message of God is referred by its various attributes. In 6:83-89, it mentions all the prophets were given Al-Kitab.
So, this Al-Kitab is given to all prophets. Then Injeel, Torat and Zabur, can also be the attributes of this Al-Kitab. It does not make sense that Allah send different books, as Quran says that all prophets were given the same Sharia in Sura Shura 42:13. Also, it challenges to bring any previous book than this Book or even any remnant of those previous books. So, all these indications are that when Taurat and Injeel are mentioned they are the attributes of the same Book of Allah. What happened was that people put this Book of Allah, behind their back and bring forth an alternative Book which they wrote with their own hands and ascribed this book as from inspiration of Allah. The below link explores this topic in a little bit more detail.

https://topicsfromquran.wordpress.com/2017/03/26/who-are-ahlal-kitab/