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Offline Truth Seeker

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Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« on: May 28, 2019, 10:54:40 AM »
TOPIC SPLIT FROM THE ORIGINAL THREAD:

Plastic Surgery:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2665.0

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Salaam Mohammed,

I was just revisiting this thread and wanted to ask you about what you said :
Quote
If X harm Y intentionally/unintentionally, it happens because GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL letting X to do so, and Y deserves it.
But if Y do not deserves it/is innocent, then GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL will NEVER let X to do it.
Even if Y deserves it /is a sinner, X will definitely get punished by GOD for this evil deed (if he did it without cause /valid reason).

When you say if Y didn't deserve it/ is innocent then God would never let X do it.

What would say the  about the son's of Adam when one brother killed his innocent brother ? God let it happen.

Your theory doesn't for here.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 11:05:03 AM »
salaam Truth Seeker,

Quote
...when one brother killed his innocent brother ?

Who told you that? Do you have any evidence from the Qur'an?
I also heard it from traditional teachers, and brother Joseph also saying the same!.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20trials%20FM3.htm


Quote
We should think in this way also,

Given the example of the Prophet Moses when he met a knowledgeable slave of Allah, and he killed a boy then Prophet Moses questioned him.

"So they left/set out until when they met/found a servant/boy, so he killed him. He (Moses) said: "Did you kill a pure self without a self? You had come (with) an awful/obscene thing." (18:74)

Later he clarified the reason to Prophet Moses,

"And as for the boy/servant, so his parents were believing, so we feared that he burdens/oppresses them (with) tyranny/arrogance and disbelief." (18:80)

Here the boy was killed because, in future he might be turning against Allah.

-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2019, 03:17:55 AM »
Salaam Mohammed,

In the article you sent from Joseph Islam, he also believes that the murdered son was innocent:

Quote
Adam's son, who was wholly innocent, was slaughtered by the hands of his own brother (5:27-30). He committed no crime and was simply murdered out of jealousy because his sacrifice was accepted (5:27).


Thus, one brother had to transgress against another so that his sin could be manifested. This is made clear in the innocent brother’s own words captured for posterity and remains the bedrock of much of the Quran's teaching regarding our trials here on earth.

005.029
"Indeed, I wish that you be laden with my sin and your sin so you will be the companions of the fire, and that is the recompense for wrong-doers."

The innocent brother was presented as a trial. In the end, both were destined to die at one point or another. No one is to remain on this planet ad infinitum.


Sometimes within God's mighty plan, conflicts are allowed to fester, so that some can become trials for others and an opportunity granted for their transgressions to be manifested and others to do good (e.g. as peacemakers).

047.004 (part)

"...And if God had willed, surely He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may test some of you by means of others..."

 

049:009
"And if two parties among the believers should fight, then make settlement between the two. But if one of them oppresses the other, then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of God. Then if it returns, then make peace / settlement between them in justice and act justly. Indeed, God loves those who act justly."

I have made bold the parts that I wanted to highlight to you.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2019, 05:02:11 PM »
salaam,

I asked you evidence from the Qur’an not from Joseph Islam’s article!!! Where did the Qur’an say he was wholly innocent?
Months ago on another thread, I mentioned the same issue!

peace brother Joseph, Why are you still publishing that? Do you have any evidence for your claim?
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2019, 09:08:16 PM »
salaam,

I asked you evidence from the Qur’an not from Joseph Islam’s article!!! Where did the Qur’an say he was wholly innocent?
Months ago on another thread, I mentioned the same issue!

peace brother Joseph, Why are you still publishing that? Do you have any evidence for your claim?


Peace Mohammed,

Admittedly, I am a little surprised that you have chosen this matter to contend with. However, I will respond with a view to assist God willing.

Notwithstanding the following points:

  • There is no evidence from the Quran that Adam's son committed a crime for which death was warranted.
  • It appears from verses 5:27 that he was simply murdered out of jealousy as his sacrifice was acceptable and his sibling's wasn't. Therefore, the murder was unwarranted against an innocent soul.
  • In verse 5:28, Adam's son clearly expresses his fear of God not to transgress.
  • It is clear from verse 5:29 that to kill Adam's son, a sin would have to be committed intimating therefore, that he was innocent.
  • It is clear from verse 5:29 that if the murder took place, the murderer would become a wrongdoer, one who acts unjustly 'zalim'. It is only reasonable to posit that in order to become a 'zalim', one would have to commit a misdeed against an innocent party.
  • Verse 5:30 also confirms that after the murder took place, the murderer become of the losers (khasir). This again confirms the murdered son's innocence as his brother would not have become a 'khasir' had he not killed his innocent brother.
  • In verse 5:31, the son that committed the murder became repentant (nadima). There would arguably have been no need to become repentant if he had not killed an innocent soul.
  • The matter of killing an innocent human soul without cause was so grave, that a fundamental human law was established after this murder that the right to take life would only be permissible in 2 circumstances (5:32) (1) As a retribution for causing 'fasaad' (gross mischief / evil, beyond all bounds) in the land and (2) As a retribution for murder.

However, I only have one question for you.

The burden of proof is not with me to prove the innocence of Adam's murdered son from the Quran. Rather, the burden of proof is on you to prove his guilt. That is the fundamental tenet in any matter of jurisprudence (even from the Quran) where guilt needs to be proven. (i.e. Innocent until proven guilty).

Therefore with respect, please can you provide me unequivocal evidence from the Quran that Adam's murdered son was guilty.

Regards,
Joseph

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2019, 11:15:30 PM »
Whatever you say, readers can understand something from this (5:29)

"Indeed, I wish that you be laden with my sin/crime and your sin/crime, so you be from the fire's company, and that (is) the unjust's/oppressor's reimbursement."

Didn't he commit any sin before? Was he wholly innocent??

Anyway, thanks for this website. Some of your article which I read were really good/useful (I didn't read your complete articles).

salaam/peace be upon you
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 05:24:37 AM »
Peace Mohammed,

From what I can gather from your response, you have been unable to provide any evidence for Adam's son's crime that warranted his death / murder.

When I say 'wholly innocent', I mean in the context of him being murdered. I do not imply that he had never committed a sin in his entire life. From what you appear to be suggesting, it means that every person that is murdered for one reason or another, deserves it. With respect, I cannot support your perspective as this would make a mock of so many Quranic narratives and themes for me.

Therefore, please kindly let us conclude this discussion, God willing. The respected readership can make up their own minds.

Regards,
Joseph

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell