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Offline Karin

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Magic
« on: September 28, 2012, 08:29:48 AM »
Joseph, I need your help.  The question is about magic.
My friend is in great distress. About one and a half years ago, she was about 5 1/2 months pregnant when she heard from many different doctors her unborn baby had a malformation and wouldn't survive days after the birth. She had the baby aborted. Some months after the abortion, she started showing very strong signs of depression and anxiety, which were diagnosed as "Post-traumatic Stress Disorder". She has been on controlled medication since. Her husband by the other hand didn't show many signs of grief at the time.
About 8 months ago her husband has started acting very strangely: "like a zombie" - she says, and I have witnessed myself a strange blank expression on his face on both occasions I got to see him. He used to be a lovely family man, a good father, husband and friend, my friend says. But now he barely talks to anybody, only yells at their little girl and his mind seems to be "somewhere else" most of the time...
My friend says she is sure somebody has cast a spell on her husband. The circumstances which made her suspect the issue of  somebody "blowing into knots" are very long to detail, but they seem quite credible. The spell seems to have the objective of splitting the couple apart. There's a woman of "ill-repute" involved in the story whose best friend deals with "Black Magic".
So my distressed friend is desperately trying to save her family. She has consulted with couple religious authorities who deal with the issue of magic in Turkey. One has advised her to put a specific prayer in a bucket of water and give the water to her family to drink every day. He has also advised her to find a way to make her husband shower with that water, which my friend successfully did. She claims her husband changed right after that shower, but returned to his strange mood some days later. Another religious authority has told her that the "jinns have informed him" there is a spell cast on my friend's family for sure, and the only way to break the spell cast by the woman of "ill-repute" is for my friend to cast on her husband the same spell the other lady supposedly did.
She has asked my opinion, and I told her I do believe the power of Magic, as there are references about in the Quran. But I think her husband may just be clinically depressed... after all, it was his baby too, you know? And different people react to pain in different ways. I have advised her to take him to a psychiatrist.
She is however concerned: what if the doctor says there's nothing physically wrong with her husband? What if there's really a spell cast on him? What should she do? Should she follow the religious authority's advice and make another spell to break the first one? I told her she would be playing with fire (literally), and the best remedy for things like that would be lots of prayer and patience.
What about the prayer in water thing? Can it be considered ablution and not magic?
What is your take in this story Joseph? Can you help her? She is really suffering and doesn't know what to do...

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Magic
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 01:03:39 PM »
Dear Karin,

Peace to you.

While I wholeheartedly concur with the presence of dark occult arts (113:4) and possibly the use of such arts to cause strife in people's lives (2:102 & article [1]), we must always remember that any loss whether of a child (22:5) or else, is by the Will of God alone and are part of our trials. To Him we belong and to Him is our return.

We are all being continuously tested in multifaceted ways. Even the greatest of people were not immune from the pains of suffering and adversity. [2]. Therefore, we must exercise forbearance. (103:3).

Also, there seems to be a great inclination on the part of many in various cultures and communities to readily assign one’s suffering to the realms of the unseen and dark occult arts where there are legitimate alternative explanations.

One only has to read the immense trials and tribulations of the great prophets in the Old Testament and how they showed forbearance and committed themselves to prayer during their trials whilst not relegating their troubles to dark arts or seeking 'quick fix' solutions.

I was very concerned to read that one of the suggestions advanced was to drag a purely innocent party (husband of the other woman ‘suspected’) into the whole predicament by casting a spell on him (counter-spell). This is a ludicrous suggestion in my humble opinion and wholly unislamic. This would be no different from punishing someone wholly innocent of someone else's 'alleged' crimes. This also raises deep concern on the credibility from whom advice is being sought.

Given the limited information, I would humbly feel that the best course of action would be to put one’s trust wholly into God (and not isolated individuals with quick fix solutions) and enhance one’s worship considerably seeking help and protection from God alone.  This can be done individually and I humbly see no harm seeking respite from God on this issue as part of a congregation.

Therefore, I would personally be disinclined to seek assistance from such 'witch doctors' as the ones your friend has consulted and rather make use of intense contemplation and prayer to seek assistance directly from the Almighty.  I would also exhaust all possible avenues of cognitive therapy via specialist assistance and just as importantly, from trusted, seasoned members of family and friends. Sometimes it’s the closest that make one attain best perspectives and whose advice penetrates the mind.

In the end, the trial may simply be to ascertain whether the individuals involved actually believe and uphold the following sentiment of the Quran.

‘Iyyaka na’budu wa-iyyaka nasta’in’ (You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help) (1:5)

…Or whether they incline by placing their trust in the power of men seeking hurried solutions to their detriment.

And only God knows best.

Related articles:

[1] DID HARUT AND MARUT TEACH DARK MAGIC?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/harut-marut%20FM3.htm
[2] SUFFERING AND ADVERSITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/suffering%20FM3.htm

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Karin

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Re: Magic
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2012, 07:12:00 PM »
Thank you Joseph. We have discussed your answer extensively.
My friend has set up a family meeting where her in-laws will try to convince the husband to seek medical help.
There has been a misunderstanding about my post: The "other woman" isn't married. The "wicth doctor" who suggested a "counter-spell" has actually said that my friend needed to replicate the same spell on her own husband, as means to "break" the one allegedly made by the other lady.
Something has also come to our attention while discussing your answer: the issue of suspicion. Nobody is sure the other lady has performed witchcraft. Those are just allegations. Slandering somebody is something very serious.
So as of right now, we are all praying and hoping the husband will either get proper professional care or come to his senses with the help of his family and friends.
One of her friends however, trying to defend a possible "spiritual guidance" from the "religious authorities" has come with a point, and I'd love to hear your take on it: if all help should be sougth from God, then why do we go to the doctor when we are ill?
Regards,
Karin

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Magic
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 09:54:29 AM »
Dear Karin,

Peace to you.

I am happy that you have decided to discuss this as a family unit and to exhaust conventional routes first.

In response to your question, I wholeheartedly agree that the requirement for seeking assistance from God does not negate the need for humans to ensure every effort is taken to help themselves. This is clear even in the verse where precautions were expected to be taken in religious war. (4:71; 4:102).

Also, God’s guidance and assistance can manifest through other people. A simple case when one trains a dog to catch their food, they are training it with information that God has taught them, not by scripture, but through knowledge that He has manifested through other humans / means.

“…You teach them of what God has taught you …” (5:4)

Similarly, doctors are humans that God has taught wisdom in various ways.

However, there is a fundamental difference between a doctor and a witch doctor.

One deals with the realm of the 'seen', the 'tangible', where there is a systematic process of deep learning, testing, expertise, systematic and reviewed experimentations throughout the globe over many decades / centuries, analytics, cause and effect, data analysis, diagnosis in a broad spectrum of an ever expanding field.  The data is measurable, quantifiable and in the main, reliable. 

The world of the occult arts has no rigid foundation with a systematic learning process, there are no world recognised institutions of occult arts, it deals wholly with the ‘unseen’, has no real quantifiable or qualitative analysis scope which is rigorously tested and peer reviewed and is often based on suspicion, speculation and spurious results.  This is at best a speculative arena with anyone potentially able to practice it.

When we visit a doctor we make best efforts for assistance from people whom we believe God has taught. We make an ‘informed’ decision based on verifiable criteria. Can we honestly say the same for those that practice occult arts whom we often know nothing about or their works which cannot be verified independently?

However, I accept there may be some that are good at what they do and I know there are those that speak highly of people such as Abu Muhammad. The credibility of the videos I leave to your own personal assessment. However, they are worth watching.

Jinn Interrupts during a live call in show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B90CauxfDDc

Jinns and Exorcisms in Islam - Abu Muhammad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro3kxkc7nYo

Personally, I have not dealt with such individuals or have subjected their works, claims to any scrutiny.  However, I also do not dismiss the presence of such occult arts lightly. Having said this, I would always seek assistance from God and would always attempt to exhaust conventional routes first asking Him to manifest his guidance through whatever means he deems fit.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline chadiga

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Re: Magic
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 01:48:42 PM »
Salam all
I have more experience with the subject of magic - my husband worked intensively with the issue and, unfortunately, still seems to be obsessed with it.
I am of the opinion that although there is a magic that is also practiced by some people and apparently does have results, that these practices can never defraud , if  God does not allow it. Brother Joseph has this fact  presented very nice in his scheme about God.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/timeandspace%20FM3.htm
The Magic fell -like everything else in the universe- under the creation of Allah. He and He alone is outside this creation,  outside time and space and not include their laws.Magic may act according to 'the laws of physics in the universe. So can anyone be 'bewitched', as, for example, can get a virus. Same magic may not produce the same for two people.
As for a cure through the Koran, Append I want that there is no question that our words have a certain effect on the Opposite. Words are power. The effect of words on substances has been proven several times, think of talking to plants or effects on the water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnbZN54IZNE&feature=related
And the Quran is the word of God- so it  is clear for me that it certainly has a very positive effect on a diseased organism. Which processes are involved is, of course, beyond my knowledge.

On the other hand people gives the magic  clearly too much weight. For example, I suffered for years under constant infection in uterus and stomach - the conclusion from my husband: clear magic....
The reading of Quranic Verses let me feel good of course, but i was still sick.. I was finally cured by simple treatment medicine. ;D
Salam

Offline HOPE

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Re: Magic
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 06:46:26 PM »
Peace Chadiga,

The title confuses me, since I'm conditioned to think of magic as trickery.  But if we define it as supernatural powers that produces desired results I'm with you.  It is a relative concept based on understanding.  Once diseases were considered caused by evil spirits.  As far as humans are concerned, jinn and angels are supernatural or immaterial yet they are creations of Allah and can only act according to God's will; they cannot act independently.

58:10  Conspiracy for evil purposes is the work of Satan, by which he means to bring grief to believers. But he cannot harm them in the least, unless it be by Gods leave. Let the believers put their trust in God.

I suppose jinn can take human form too just like some angels or have the physical faculty of hearing like those listening to the Quran.  Solomon did not disagree with the jinn who claimed to be able to bring the queen's throne in an instant.

The heart emits electromagnetic fields based on your emotions.  Sometimes I can feel the negative vibes coming from certain people when I am in close proximity to them. 

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline chadiga

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Re: Magic
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 10:44:43 AM »
Salam Hope

Quote
I suppose jinn can take human form too just like some angels or have the physical faculty of hearing like those listening to the Quran.  Solomon did not disagree with the jinn who claimed to be able to bring the queen's throne in an instant.

this question is in my mind since this early morning ;). Why this spirits are named 'jinn'? Because they are not visible for our eyes, or??
if they can take human form, then the  present situation on earth will become to much more clear..

Quote
The heart emits electromagnetic fields based on your emotions.  Sometimes I can feel the negative vibes coming from certain people when I am in close proximity to them. 

hmm i remember one hadith ( ;D) where the prophet he said, that if the heart bad, all the body bad...it seems to be more then a tale from the past..
yes i cann feel negative vibes too.
peace






UPDATE BY QM FORUM MODERATOR

13th March 2013

This thread is now closed and a direct link to this post is now available at the dedicated Q&A page.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/q&as%20FM3.htm

Thanks.