Messages

286

General Discussions / Re: 17.59

« on: July 06, 2012, 05:27:42 AM »

How is your contention any different from the argument which says that God knew Pharaoh would be a tyrant and would never believe, yet he still sent Prophet Moses to him?

Wa'alaikumu'ssalam,

I think it is not difficult to understand.   It was necessary he is sufficiently warned about his wrong ways and introduce Islam to him.  As you are aware, Allah would not punish any community without sending messengers and sufficiently send warnings.

Allahs says “Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed all bounds; But speak to him a gentle word, haply he might take heed or fear”. 20:43

“Allah directed Moses: 'Go thou to Pharaoh; he has rebelled,' And say to him. 'Wouldst thou be purified? And I will guide thee to thy Lord so that thou mayest fear Him. So he showed him the great Sign, But he rejected him and disobeyed; Then he turned away from the Truth, devising schemes; And he gathered his people and proclaimed, Saying, 'I am your Lord, the Most High. So God seized him for the punishment of the Hereafter and the present world.”(79:17-25)

Various ways how Pharoah was warned are explained at many places in Quran;

“O pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds” (7:104)

Moses said to Pharoah “It has, indeed, been revealed to us that punishment shall come upon him who rejects the Message of God and turns away“(20:48).

“Pharaoh said, 'Who then is the Lord of you two, O Moses? Moses said, 'Our Lord is He Who gave unto everything its proper form and then guided it to its proper function” (20:50)...."My Lord neither errs nor forgets. It is He Who has made the earth for you a bed and has caused pathways for you to run through it; and Who sends down rain from the sky and thereby We bring forth various kinds of vegetation in pairs. (20:51-53).

“Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them: So see what was the end of those who made mischief.(7:103)

And We showed pharaoh all Our Signs, but he did reject and refuse.(20:56)

“We have sent to you, (O men!) a messenger, to be a witness concerning you, even as We sent a messenger to pharaoh. But pharaoh disobeyed the messenger; so We seized him with a heavy Punishment.” (73:15-16)

Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.(10:75)

Please note Quran is not even addressing Pharaoh as a Kafir at the initial stage before he was introduced to Islam and deliberately rejecting the truth.  Initially he was addressed only as "people defiantly disobedient" (kanoo kauman faasiqoon) 28:32 and people "exceeded all bounds"(20:24)

287

General Discussions / Re: 17.59

« on: July 06, 2012, 04:01:33 AM »

Salam
i see this question in an other forum and i like to know your thoughts about it:

Verse 17:59

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَن نُّرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَن كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ

Transliteration : Wa ma manaAAana an nursila bialayati illa an kaththaba biha alawwaloona, …

Yusuf Ali: And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false.

This  translation implies that God initially sent Signs / miracles to convert people and had an intention to send more signs but He disappointed to learn that His signs did not work as expected. So, He stopped sending them.

Now see translation below:

Reformist Group: The rejection of previous people did not stop Us from sending the signs. 

Endnote (Page: 206): Traditional translations render the meaning of "Ma" as a relative pronoun rather than a negative particle, "What stopped us from sending…."
Source: https://www.irshadmanji.com/PDFS/ReformistTranslation.pdf

Now look at word to word translation:
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=17&verse=59

peace and thank you  for the help

Salamun alaikum

Permit me to post one comment without participating in any futher discussions on this question.   This issue has been taken up in another thread, however, I think I should make a comment here due to the above comments marked in red, which has serious flaws.

No Muslim would deny Allah’s knowledge covers past, present and future.  The above comment implys that, in spite of the fact that Allah knew the previous generations would deny his miracles he had still sent to them miracles!!  This is a wrong understanding.  What prevented Allah from not sending miracles  is not their expressed denial of such miracles in the past, but Allah’s confirmed knowledge that  those who are bend to reject Allah and those who seek miracles as a precondition to believe never apply their reason seldom learn from such proofs manifested through their acts.    That is the reason why Quran tells the prophet about such people;  “Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein, They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15:14-15).    This was the nature of such people at all times.  A miracle can do nothing for them to promote their belief.

Notice one important point also here.    According to Quran there would be no respite once a miracle is sent.  Verse 15:8 states if angels are sent there would be no further respite.  Also, when  Jesus prayed for a table of food as a sign as a result of repeated demand from his people (initially Jesus warned them),  Allah made a severe warning that anyone disobeys thereafer would be punished with very severe punishment never inflicted on any humanity (5:112).  When this stern warning was received the people did not pursue for the miracle. 

288

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 05, 2012, 08:35:59 PM »

We can continue to surmise ad infinitum. With respect, you will have to provide clear evidence that the Christians at the time of the Quran's revelation understood these narratives as allegories.

We know how the Christians understood these narratives of the Bible before the time of the Quran.  At the time of the revelation of the Quran, these thoughts were not corrected, but confirmed. This would have been the perfect time for the Quran to correct Biblical theology as it does in other areas. However, it did not.

Wa'alaikumu'ssalam,

I will say "Confirming what is between your hands from the Book" mentioned in the Quran means confirming what were actually stated in the original scriptures....not their actual beliefs at the time of the Quran's revelation.....Therefore, what is actually required to be investigated is whether all these miracles were mentioned in the original scriptures were allegorical or not.  I have come across in a google search many interesting such works from Christian scholars.  One of such works  I am reading (just out of curiosity) at the moment is; The miracles of Exodus  By John Plkinghorne -  A scientist’s discovery of the extraordinary natural causes of the biblical stories.

Even reading the Bible itself we can see many allegorical statements as such as,

Matthew 17:20 Jesus says quite clearly:  For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

In John 2:19  the Jews demanded Jesus what miraculous sign can you show to prove your  authority to do all this? Jesus answered them? Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three  days? The Jews replied, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you  are going to raise it in three days??

Please notice a spiritual connection in the above statements rather than literal understanding...see how Jesus telling them with spiritual power even the people can do miracles like moving a mountain!!

Well, the only question someone can ask; why such literal understandings were not corrected by Quran (there is NO question of confirmation prevailing beliefs of  Christians....what is confirmed by Quran is only what is mentioned in original scriptures...if these miracles are mentioned allegorically allegorical, if literally literal).  The plausible explanation for not specifically correcting could be, Allah would be deviating from His ways by doing literal explanation of something which he had decided to explain allegorically, another plausible reason could be it would be impossible for literal explanation, also the reason could be,  the issue is not something affecting the foundation of Deen, etc.   Anyhow, such a question has no relevance here.  It is like someone asked me recently why in Quran it was not specifically stated that many people will start to compile the hadiths of the prophet after prophet’s death and start to follow such hadiths,  and if Allah had done so the present day Muslims would not have been under the trap of Shaythan!! (May be, If Allah had stated such a comment in this way it would not have been possible to preserve the Quran as we see today….the criminals would have caused corruptions in verses of Quran as well).   Such questions have no relevance.   One can ask such questions out of curiosity only.

Once again, please accept my post as the last on this topic.

With respect.

Joseph.

I respect your decision.....I do have lot of respect for you....more than you can imagine.  Take care always

Salamun Alaikum

289

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 05, 2012, 01:34:52 AM »

I assert that this is no different to relying on modern Muslim theologians who claim allegories. I look forward to clear evidence for ancient Biblical understanding ideally supported by well documented ancient writings.

So for example, if Prophet Moses's rod became a snake (Hebrew - naw-khawsh: snake, serpent - Exodus 4:3) and this is how it was always understood by the People of the Book for generations, why did the Quran use a similar expression to describe the same narrative (Arabic: jannun - serpent, snake (27:10) thu'banun: serpent)? 

Dear Brother Joseph,  Salamun Alaikum,

For further consideration at your convenient time, and respecting your valuable time, I would like to mention hereunder couple of points for the above points so far I did not make any comments.  Please consider this as an excercise for evaluating all possible probabitilies.
   
1.  There is every possibility that narratives in christian scriptures are also stated allegorically and later generations took them in the literal sense (majority view has no basis when it comes to truth).  So the usage of the same word for snake (Hebrew - naw-khawsh: snake, serpent - Exodus 4:3) is justified.

2.  If the fact remains as the biblical narratives are also allegorically explained in Christian scriptures it is not necessary all those same narratives should have been literally explained in the Quran.   There is a purpose why certain things are allegorically explained and it remains the same.

3.  Now, a genuine question; In spite of the fact that the Christians and Jews “Understood”  those narratives in their scriptures in the literal sense during prophet’s time, why the Quran does not clarify the real situation?  This question has no substance due to the followings;

(a)  It could be interpreted as God deliberately changing His way, sometimes allegorically explaining things and sometimes the same things are explained literally.   
(b)  The real situation still remains the same, things cannot be literally explained.   
(c)   It would have created confusion and it would not have served any purpose since the people themselves were demanding miracles from the prophet and the people were generally not physiologically mature to appreciate such theological aspect.
(d)   Sufficient warnings have been given in the Quran about the fact of allegorical explanation of things and the danger of interpreting allegorical verses literally (3:7).

These are just my views.....appreciate your comments at your convenient time.   

Allah bless you

290

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 03, 2012, 05:14:48 PM »

I am unable to edit......just to add one point......examples of very SEVERE distortion and perversion are literal understanding and explanation of "Hands of Allah", "Allah's face",  "Allah's Throne being on water, etc.   Even such corruption can be found in books of hadith due to such literal understanding.   There is even a hadith in Bukahri stating Allah created Adam in HIS image!!!!!

291

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 03, 2012, 04:43:40 PM »

(alladahina fi qulubihim zayghun fayattabiuna ma tashabaha – 3:7) those in their hearts is perversity – so they follow what is allegorical.

Salamun Alaikum,

Thank you for your comments.  I liked the discussion with you and I love your sincere heart.   May Allah lead us to the right path and I sincerely prays these differences of opinion on issues like miracles among people who want to focus only on Quran should not lead distract their hearts.   

I have only one comment for the above quote from you related to verse 3:7.   I believe the correct understanding of the above statement from Allah is not the way you have stated.  Let me explain to you.  According to the entire verse in question, Allah's book contains two kinds of verses, the first kind consists of those verses which have definite meaning and constitute the foundation of Allah’s Laws. The second kind are figurative and explain abstract realities metaphorically. (Alladahina fi qulubihim zayghun fayattabiuna ma tashabaha  means those who tend to deviate from Allah’s Path, take the figurative verses in their literal sense thereby causing discord by interpreting these verses in their own way. The correct meaning is not the way you have explained....think.

Let me state some comments for "fi qulubihim zayghun"  in this verse.   "Zaaghatil" absaar زَاغَتِ الْأَبْصَارُ  has been used in  33:10 meaning eyes became distracted.   In 53:17 it says about prophet  مَا زَاغَ الْبَصَرُ وَمَا طَغَىٰ  your sight has neither moved away from the truth nor has it crossed the limit.   The Qur’an says in 61:5 alamma zaaghu  azaghallahu qulubahum meaning when moved away from God’s path, then the law of God or nature made them lean towards that very path (to which they had deviated).  To get the right guidance from the Qur’an, our eyes should be focused,  the comprehension should be blank, that is, there should be no preconception.  The right path is that no matter what our hearts and minds lean towards, we should never digress from the Qur’an; whatever the Qur’an says is haq (the truth) not what our leanings are; any one who goes to the Qur’an with preconceived ideas with the intention of getting confirmation of those ideas from the Qur’an, can never find the right guidance from the Qur’an.

May Allah guide us all to the right path

292

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 02, 2012, 03:34:09 PM »

Are you not even willing to consider it as a possibility?

Wa' alaikumussalam,

With immense respect to your comments (I may make further comments later if I have any further points) I would like to ask you very politely the same question back.....whether you are willing to consider the narratives in Quran, like Ant's speech, the possibility of an allegory?, considering the fact that an Ant cannot think and act like humans do.  Why it is necessary to insist to give a literal interpretation?    For me,  this allegory of Ant is not a difficult thing to understand especially considering the fact that Solomon had a mighty and powerful army.  Isn't it a possibility Quran allegorically  stating how powerful was the army of Solomon in comparison with the people in the valley, who wanted to avoid and confine themselves into their  dwellings without causing any hindrance to the movement of Solomon’s army lest they might get involved and crushed in the process.   Solomon smiles after he came to know about this news and his immediate prayer is also relevant here.  Solomons then prays   “My Lord, grant me that I may be grateful to Thee, for Thy favour which Thou hast bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I may do such good works as would please Thee, and admit me, by Thy mercy, among Thy righteous servants”.    This is not a prayer associated with knowing an Ant’s speech, but this is a prayer as a result of realization of his status and position in comparison with others. 

Now tell me, are you not  willing to consider it even as a possibility?

293

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 02, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »

Salaam Optomist,

Is is great that people like yourself are trying to separate the Quran from the traditional understanding that is marred by secondary sources.

I too decided to step back and start again, realising that I had looked at some subjects through pre conceived ideologies that had no basis from the Quran.

However this does not mean that everything in the Quran needs to be redefined just because the traditionalists practiced or believed in it.

I believe that salaat means physical prayer and that saum means fasting. I also believe that miracles existed.

That does not make me a traditionist. The Quran only approach does not mean that we strip everything back to the point where nothing exists, just leaving a void behind to be filled by big egos who have gone beyond the point of no return.

Shaytaan cannot change the Arabic, but has worked his way through the understanding of the words, to such an extent that we now have a Quran that is unrecognisable.

Wa' alaikumussalam,

Thank you for your comments.   I am also very happy to meet people like you with similar views.  I prefer to accommodate all those who focus only on Quran for guidance.   The points is, differences of opinion on issues like miracles should not be taken as a major hurdle in the Quranic path.    In other words, when someone tells us about Parwez, we should not say, Oh yes Parwez, I know him, the one who denies miracles, who translates and interprets the Quran whimsically!  No can deny his in-depth  knowledge in Arabic  which is evidence from two masterpieces of his life achievement Lughat-ul-Quran & Tabweeb-ul-Quran, both running into several volumes.   The former helps the reader to get clear root meanings of a word, and the latter helps him to know its Quranic concept through tasreef-e-ayat.    We should not overlook his other contributions also.   Please just read one of his works, out of many, "Quranic Laws (Qurani Qawaneen)"  and see how beautifully and convincingly he explains all aspects focusing only on Quran.   Just see the topics that he covers ;  http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/QL/QL.htm

Regarding differences of opinion on issues like miracles, even what Parwez himself had stated was this; “If you do not agree with my corollaries, you may ignore them and make your own decisions by contemplating upon the text. My only objective is to facilitate the work of those intending to tread the Quranic path, (helping them along according to my own ability and breadth of vision), so that they may find it easy to reach the goal. I would like to be their fellow  traveller, not mentor.”

Also towards the end of his work, “Reasons for decline of Muslims”, (the first book I read from Parwez) he makes a passionate appeal to all to write to him, to work together in the Quranic path, and to keep in touch with him in this mission; He says;   

“…….in the world the relationship established through Quranic thought and contemplation and seeing eye to eye in harmony is a relationship so strong and firm that none other relation compares with it.  It is also possible that through this mutual contact and communication, we could give more serious thought on this issue and devise ways and means to remove the obstacles and make the path smoother.  And in this manner  and in the universal light of the Quran, with its discernment and insight go on raising the curtains, the curtains which have fallen for a thousand years of dark conformity with the ancestors and religious tyranny have fallen on them”

Therefore, even if we ignore his views of miracles, we should appreciate and take inspiration from his life, his other major works that are written focusing only on Quran.

294

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 02, 2012, 06:27:37 AM »

With respect, please note again my contentions. I await a suitable response.

• Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth

Salamun alaikum,

I think this question is required a slight modification.    The question should not be whether Allah is competent to temporarily suspend the laws, it should be whether Allah will ever suspend /alter /interfere.   Allah is very much competent to suspend/ alter/ interfere, but Allah will not do.  For instance, the taste of salt is salty, Allah could have made it taste differently.   Can Allah change the taste of salt to something else?   Yes of course, Allah can do it, but Allah will not do.   This applies in the social world also.

“This has been Our way with Our Messengers whom We sent before thee; and thou wilt not find any change in Our way” (17:77)

“Such has been the way of God with those who passed away before, and never thou wilt find a change in the way of God.”(33:62)

“(Such has been) Allah's Way of dealing with His Servants (from the most ancient times).” (40:85)

“Such has ever been the law of God; and thou shalt not find any change in the law of God.”(48:23)

“Thus [it is]: no change wilt thou ever find in God's way; yea, no deviation wilt thou ever find in God's way!” (35: 43)
 

• What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 17:59 going forward that He had sent to previous communities?
• How could God stop something (17:59) He did before, if He did not alter His ways?

The reason why no miracles have been provided to the prophet, as stated in the Quran many times, was because the prophet was only a human being like us and a messenger with responsibility to deliver the message only.   I will say, the explanation of  “Miracles” in the above verse is only an interpretation, it is because we try to interpret the verse based on our pre-conceived notions.   

Please tell me what is the “miracle” in the story of Thamud discussed in the context?  People of Thamud treated Allah’s warnings with contempt and brought about punishment and immediate destruction.   The purpose for sending such a warning was to strike terror into the hearts of evildoers and reclaim them to the right path.  Here fear is used as a motive for reclaiming certain kinds of hard hearts.   Allah could have send the message with such warnings, however, it is Allah's Mercy that he gives the disbelievers grace for a time and prevents the coming of punishments which would overwhelm them if they were put to their trial at once.   

Considering your explanation of "miracles" associated with earlier people, we know that, when people asked Jesus a miracle, what Jesus himself had stated was. according to Quran, "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." (5:12).   

Also, it is to be noted that Allah mentions with contempt the habit of people requesting “miracles”;

“And those who have no knowledge say, 'Why does God not speak to us, or a Sign come to us direct?' Likewise said those before them what was similar to their saying. Their hearts are all alike. We have certainly made the Signs plain for a people who firmly believe.” (2:118)

• Why does the Quran 'confirm' (musaddiqan) the traditional understanding of the Jewish and Christian audience at the time of the Prophet's ministry with regards portents and not challenge it?
• Why does the Quran use similar terms in the Arabic language to support the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians regarding portents?

I  think we need to take into account the following things and take up the issue for further deliberations.

1.   There are christian scholars/ writers who claim that rod of Moses and many biblical stories, even the story of Adam are allegorical.  You can check for book “The Rod of the Almond Tree in God’s Master Plan” by Peter A. Michas , mainly from chapter 6 onwards.  I will say such an analysis is interesting only, especially from a Christian point of view.

2.   Then there is the issue how Quran can explain things which are having a pshychological reality to the people and I am unable to find a reason why a theological stand should have been taken  in explicit terms other than metaphorically explaining the things as it is and at the same time mentioning the reality of the actual situation through many verses.   

3.   Another important thing is to be noted is that no where any “miracles” have been said to have been done in response to a demand for miracles.  When a demand was made, as  stated in the Quran,  the response from Jesus was, “fear your lord”.   So please note, a "miracle" is said to have been performed when there was no request for it from people!   It is strange and there is a lot to ponder over. 

4.   An allegorical narration might be best possible way to explain facts for people who are not familiar and present at the time and period in history.   The fact that Moses requested Allah the help of Aaron for the reason that Aaron was more fluent speech and debate is itself a proof that what happened before Pharoah was more than a magical feast  (it is interesting to note, in the biblical narration it is Aaron who is throwing the stick).   We are actually overlooking  the possiblity of an intellectual debate and consequent victory explained through an allegory of a real snake swallowing false and faked snakes.   Even assuming this an allegory, the words and statements have deep and powerful meanings. 

5.   Quran itself testifies that it contains allegorical verses and and Allah only knows the essence of the realities which these verses represent.  Also, those who make a right approach to knowledge believe in the realities but can also form an idea of what they are and can perceive their significance. (3:7) and look also (74:31)

• Why would one not accept the Quran's clear testimony, even though the Quran says it is not a book of riddles and has no crookedness?
  "...qur'anan arabiyyan ghayra dhi iwajin ..." (A Quran in Arabic without any crookedness...)

Again, quranic confirmation for the existance of allegorical verses must be sufficient to answer this  point.  There are two types of verses.  The first kind consists of those verses which have definite meaning and constitute the foundation of Allah’s Laws. The second kind are figurative and explain abstract realities metaphorically.    It is unfair to  drag the issue of “crookedness” into allegorical verses.   Moreover,  even assuming such an argument is valid,  I can quote for you a number of verses a person with ordinary understading can not grasp its real meanings without indept study and analysis.   I provide below a few instances;

“And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith” (74:31)

"Whomever God wills to guide, He renders his chest wide open to Submission. And whomever He wills to send astray, He renders his chest intolerant and constricted, as if he were ascending in the sky." 6:125 (We now know the beauty in the statement “as if he were ascending in the sky”)

We ourselves  earlier discussed  verses 2:72-73 and in yourown analysis of this verse you said;   “Verses  2:72-73   often provide an array of interpretations from commentators with different theological perspectives.” ..........................” Whether an actual body was roused from death or whether there is room for a metaphorical interpretation of how God manifests truth of murder will be open to discussion. Such details do not seem to be the purpose of the Quran to expound.”  My question;  Can we say the above verse is a crooked verse due to lack of a direct clear meaning? 

I can quote for you so many verses like the above.  I am sure you yourself will be familiar with more than such verses than myself.   People who use their intellect and reason will be able to grasp the real meaning (more or less) of such verses,  and those who do not use their intelligence may explain such verses as "crooked".  The fault is on us for not properly applying our intelligence.

295

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 30, 2012, 04:45:54 PM »

If a mountain is to crumble, the necessary steps to make this happen were put into place within the earth’s geology long before Prophet Moses would ask the question (7:143). God did not make His mind up on the spot. God just knew Prophet Moses would ask the question out of choice and He had already prepared an answer.

Wa'alaikumussalam,

I believe you are in a way confirms that everything happens in the created universe based on "cause and effect", which applies uniformly to the entire Universe.

What if God had already chosen a portent to occur to manifest a particular truth to a set of people? I humbly assert that this cannot be disproved.

Again the point is whether it is without "cause and effect".   I would like to state in brief some points as explained by partwez in Book of Destiny; http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_02.htm     

1.   Allah’s domain has two relmns, Amr and Khalq.    Khalq is the created universe while Amr is whatever is beyond.   The domain of ‘Amr’ (creating from nothingness) is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone.   This is the initial stage of creation. The chemistry of it all is beyond human comprehension and consequently, unquestionable. Allah used His exclusive power and privileges to create things (from nothingness) giving them their particular characteristics (24/45). He simply exercised His ‘will’.  There are no binding laws.  Amr is based upon ‘Allah’s will’. (22/14, 11/107, 5/1, 22/18, 21/31). 2/117 also 6/14 and 30/11.)

2.   Having created the universe according to His own will, Allah introduced a great change in this cosmic program. Now, He bound His Amr in LAWS.  In the ‘Domain of ‘Khalq’ Allah’s will is bound by laws and thus ‘Allah set a standard to everything’ (65/3)....................Here it is important to know how the term ‘Qadr’ (قدر) is used in Quran.  Quran uses the word Q-D-R with the basic meaning of a measure. ‘Qadrun’ or ‘Taqdeer’ means a measure or a standard; also, of something to be of the right measurements, standard and estimate. ‘Qadr’ (قدر) of the Quran is nothing but the Laws of Nature.   Sura An’aam reports: “Allah made night for rest and the sun and the moon for calculation (of time). This the taqdeer (destiny) of the Powerful and Knowledgeable Allah,” 6/97). In other words, this is Allah’s law. Similarly, Sura Yaseen reports: “And the sun is on course to its station. This the Powerful and Knowledgeable Allah’s taqdeer,” (36/38). Elsewhere, it says: “And We decorated the world’s sky with bright lamps (stars), and provided you protection through them. This the Powerful and Knowledgeable Allah’s taqdeer,” (41/12). Sura Furqaan reports: “He created all things and then determined taqdeer for them,” (25/2). Obviously, taqdeer means Nature’s laws. Again, Sura AdDahr reports: These goblets will be made of (brilliant) silver and made to special taqdeer (measures),” (76/16).

3.      These taqadeer (standards, measures - law of Nature) of Allah’s are pre-determined (it was done in the domain of ‘Amr’) and they are ‘written’ in the ‘book of Nature / Universe’. This is referred to as ‘the clearly set book’. It says in Sura An’aam: “Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6/59) That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there. (17/58) ((for anyone to read if they so wish)). This is physics (science). That is why these laws are called (قدر معلوم)in (15/21) and (15/24) i.e., laws which can be discovered. Adam (mankind) is said to have been given ‘the knowledge of names’. This is nothing but the knowledge of the universe. (for more detailed discussion of ‘Qadr’ kindly go through the link I posted above)

4.    In the same way every occurrence in the physical universe is based on pre-determined laws enacted by Allah, in the Man’s social world also everything takes place under pre-determined laws.   In the social world, man is a responsible being who enjoys freedom of choice of right and wrong.  Man can choose an action but has to bear its consequence (pre-ordained by Allah). This is the Law of Results of Action, which is constant and firm.  Man should bear in mind the Law of Returns which oversees all his actions (انه بما تعملون بصير  - 41/40)........... Man is free to choose his action but is not free to change the natural consequences of that action.  This Nature’s ‘Law of Returns’ applies to nations as well as to individuals.................... The words in the Quran ‘whatever Allah has written for us’ do not mean our pre-determined fate but whatever law has already been established. Fore example, see (2/187) where it says: ‘Strive to get whatever Allah has written for you. “obviously, ‘written’ in this verse does not mean pre-determined fate’ because that is inevitable and, as such, does not require any effort to get. Similarly, in (58/21) it says: “Allah has written that He and His prophets will out come out victorious.” The Quran is full of the monumental struggle which prophets had to do to succeed in their missions. Sura ‘Araaf cites Moses’ people requesting Allah to “write for us good things in this life as well as in the hereafter.” Allah’s response was: “These (good things) are WRITTEN for those who (are ‘muttaqeen) follow Allah’s laws.  For more detailed analysis pleas go through http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_06.htm

5.   Allah’s Word (كلمة الله) and Allah’s Way (سنة الله) have been used  to mean Allah’s law.  Kalima’ is the formula (theory) while ‘SunnatAllah’ is the practical form the ‘Kalimatullah’ takes. Both of these are permanent: (6/34, 6/116, 18/27 and also 10/64) for ‘Kalimatullah’ and (33/62, 40/85, 48/23) for ‘SunnatAllah’. Not only are these laws permanent but they don’t even change course (17/77, 35/43)! It has been mentioned above that Allah’s ‘Amr (will) becomes (قدرا مقدورا) ‘set standards & measures’ in the created universe. This is referred to as ‘SunnatAllah’ in (33/38), i.e., it becomes unchangeable law. 

6.   His ‘Amr - absolute power and choice - transformed to building permanent Law of Nature. In other words, Allah bound Himself! Shocking, isn’t it? But, it IS true. We witness it routinely. For example, see (6/12 & 6/54) where He says: ‘He has made Rahma compulsory for Himself. (4) Also, see (10/103): ‘We have the obligation to protect the convinced.  This has also been termed as ‘Allahs Promise’ in (16/38, 31/9, 31/33, 35/5, 40/55 & 40/77). Also to be noted is the declaration that He always does, and will, keep His promise (30/6, 3/193).   This may give rise to the argument that a ‘law abiding Allah’ ceases to be the all-powerful Allah’. But this is misleading. One does not cease to have power if one submits to a law voluntarily. For instance, if you are made to, against your will, have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, you are forced. But if you decide to do it, on your own accord, you are free. One who keeps promises and adopts certain principles in life, is not powerless. On the contrary, such a person is termed a man of honor, upholder of principles and reliable. Therefore, Allah doesn’t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn’t break laws.

296

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 29, 2012, 05:12:46 PM »

• Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth

Wa'alaikum'ussalam,

I note all of your comments/ points with respect.  I would like to point out a different arguement here for verses like "He so wills" .  My intention is only to hightlight another point of view.  Parwez clarifys through many quranic verses and explanations that the Quranic use of “شاء - يشاء etc.” should be translated as: ‘whatever is His law or Will’ (مشيئة) and not as : ‘whatever He wants’. It should be: ‘Whatever He has already wanted’

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_10.htm
I -  لو شاء الله   - If Allah Willed
II -  ما شاء الله - What Allah Wills
III -  إن شاء الله -  If Allah Wills
IV -  من يشـاء -  (Whoever wishes)
V-  يفعل ما يشاء   (He (Allah) does what He wants
VI-  يحكم ما يريد (He (Allah) ordains what He intends)[/list]

297

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 28, 2012, 07:54:25 PM »

Let me quote the following verse also from Quran;

"And the Messengers indeed have been rejected before thee, but notwithstanding their rejection and persecution they remained patient until Our help came to them. There is none to change the words of God. And there have already come to thee some of the tidings of the past Messengers.  And if their turning away is hard on thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had God enforced His will, He could surely have brought them all together to the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge" (6:35)

The above verse contains a hidden warning to prophet not to have any thought of possessing the power to work miracles so that people could be persuaded to accept his teaching and follow the right path.  The verse also reminds the prophet how messengers before worked hard and how they remained patient during difficult times until victory came to them.  This verse also seems to imply that other messengers also did not perform miracles to persuade people to believe.

298

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 28, 2012, 07:38:00 PM »

Dear Friends, Thanks for your input.

for those of us who are mere students, this issue of interpretation becomes extremely confusing. Consider what is going on:

Two different groups, having extensive knowledge of Arabic differing over this issue of Miracles !!

What is a common man supposed to do?

That leads me to another major point I have with religion:

When a Prophet is alive, all such matters are resolved by an authority sent by Allah. When the Prophet is no longer with us within a few years, disputes over interpretation emerge and then conflict starts. Take the differences over Imamat vs Khilafat dispute between Shias and Sunnis. Each argue that their position is right. Now, with the Prophet no longer around what this leads to is division and it's consequences.

Question is when such major disputes arise, how are we to resolve them with no Divine Interpreter present. Sure we have the Qur'an but people differ over it's meaning as well!!

Sometimes, in such situations one wishes that another Messenger arrives and settles such disputes uniting the Ummah.  Since that is no longer the case what are we supposed to do? Differ with grace and agree to disagree? In certain matters not vital for peace we can do so but how about sectarian conflicts. Look what is going on in Syria. It is about to blow up taking down Lebanon with it.

Assalamu alaikum,

Issues like miracles should not be dragged so as to cause a division or dispute.  There is no problem for having an intellectual discussion.  We will be able to go deeper into the meanings of verses in Quran.   I tolerate both views so long as we are focused on the Quran only for our guidance.   Like parwez himself had stated, it is an issue that concerns a scholar how he is interested in the mental development of man.  My first impression after coming across this view was that how logical and scientific is the Quran if it is the case.  Anyhow, our primary objective should be, as I said, to focus only on Quran for our guidance.  Differences of opinion of issues like miracles should be tolerated.  I also do not think people who object to miracles are just simply shooting in the air without any basis.   

Personally, I have found satisfactory explanation for the possibility of allegorical narrations in several things which are traditionally interpreted as miracles.   There are certain things I have not yet convinced about the possibility of allegorical usage, for instance,  the miraculous birth of Jesus.   I have tried to understand the issue and even come across certain logical analysis different from traditional understanding.  let me post here some points.  My intention is not to take a stand, but to analyze the counter argument. 

1. We do not know exactly when the good news about a son was told to Mary, however it is clear she is not married yet.    When events are told in an order suddenly we think these things are happening right after each other in small time span.  May be most things happen with much time in between

2. Mary’s  comment “How can I have a son, when no man hath touched me, nor am I unchaste?” in verse 19:20 is a clear inference to unmarried status which is relevant from Mary’s comment that she is also not unchaste.    The statement “No man has touched” is also relevant because she was in the temple, and she lived a virtuous life and has been raised as a nun.  And therefore it is likely to be a normal comment.

3. Allah had made decisions for Mary which would create conflicts with the Temple customs, this is why she reacted on the malikah as such, why she had to flee the Temple and why her people reacted as such.  All the verses involved show that Allah made her go against the Priesthood rules.

4. Mary faced accusation from others not for having an ‘illegitimate’ child, but for violating the custom and revolting against the Temple norms.   Bagiyaa in 19:28means 'to go beyond the bounds of normal conduct'. Unchaste is not the real meaning, but an interpreted one.

5. The comparison of Jesus to Adam in verse 3:59 is to state strongly that Jesus is not the son of God and to make it clear that Jesus is just like any other human by comparing him to adam, all mankind. Adam, or the first humans, was made in stages and was a khalifah, a successor of the earlier human species. 

6. Regarding mentioning about Jesus speaking to people in the Cradle, the point is that Mary left her people who were angry with her because in their opinion she had given up a life of celibacy and now Mary comes back (she had a child) and this was against the rule of monasticism.  Actually Mary returns back only after Jesus bestowed with Nabuwwah at a young age.   When events are told in an order there is no need to assume everything is happening right after each other in small time span.   After Mary was questioned again for her conduct,  Mary, without answering, pointed to the child to answer them.  At this, the priests said sarcastically: kaifa nukallimu mun kaana fil mahdi sabiyya:  19:29 how can we talk to a child who is newly born? How can we talk to a child for explanation: this makes the meaning of al mahd (cradle) clear:  This is ‘takallum fil mahd’: (i.e. talking about the universal truths at a young age) also in 3:45, 5:110.  The reply that was given by  Jesus to the priests also shows that it was not a reply from the cradle: i.e. was not the reply of a child: Jesus said inni abdul laahi aataaniyal kitaaba wa ja’alni nabiyya…: 19:30 I am a banda (slave) of God : He has given me the Book: and made me a prophet: this shows that this a period when Jesus has been endowed with prophet hood.

I am just sharing all these views in order for us to get the inspiration to ponder deed into the meaning of the Quran

299

General Discussions / Re: Surah Nisa

« on: June 28, 2012, 02:33:50 PM »

Assalam Bros,I need some clarification on Sura Nisa.Allah says in 4:1 about creation of men & women and relationship.In Aya 4:2 He asks about giving property to Orphans in good condition. In 4:3 Allah says if you fear that you can not act equitable towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you,two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not be able to do justice between them then marry only one.I am not able to understand "if" and  "then".What is the connection between "If not being equitable towards orphans and then  marrying women of one"s choice. I am not particular about how many to marry but the connection between "IF" and "THEN" Thanks

Wa'alaikumu'ssalam

This verse has three parts;

(i) The first part is: And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans… In Arabic "Yatama" means the children whose fathers have died, as well as those young women who are without husbands. They could be widows or young maidens who cannot get husbands. A little further ahead The Quran has used the words "Yatamun-Nisa" with these meanings (4: 127).

This verse specifically refers to the circumstances in which you are afraid that you would be unable to fairly address the problem of orphans or women without husbands. In other words, you would not be able to fulfill your duty justly towards needs and protection, which they rightly deserve. The meaning of the verse is quite clear. In a disastrous situation such as a war in which a great number of young men got killed, and there are great many orphaned children and young women left without husbands, the law governing marriage to one wife is relaxed temporarily.  It is obvious that this permission is a social necessity and not that of an individual. Only the society can decide whether they have such emergent conditions or not.

(ii) In second part it points to such situations: then marry from amongst them those who seem suitable, by twos, threes or fours (as the situation demands).

You marry women you like out of these, and thus absorb them into your family. In case of widows, their children, too, are included. This is the just treatment for them. If this problem can be solved by marrying two wives then marry two; if you can do it with three then marry three; or in the same manner you may marry the forth and no more.

(iii) The third part is: but if you fear that you will not do justice then marry only one (4: 3). As an individual, the relaxation is allowed to only that person who can do justice to all of them.    Here the word "Tauolu" has two meanings. One 'being unjust', and the other is 'being burdened' by the expenses of too big a family. Therefore when the Quran directs that if you cannot do justice, then keep the principle of one wife, the aim of this directive is firstly not to be unjust to one and secondly not be weighed down too much by the responsibility of looking after more than one family.

At the same time it is important to note that, in the same Chapter, in verse 4:129, Allah says;

“You are never able to do justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire.  But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air)”.

Quran says that psychologically it is impossible to love each wife equally. No matter how much one want to, one cannot do this type of justice. But we have to respond to the collective need of society. This is a social decision.  The Quran says, you must do this, that you should not tilt to one side only, and neglect the other - (4:129). 

300

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 27, 2012, 09:34:58 PM »

Thanks....

I also noticed another verse;

“And those who have no knowledge say, 'Why does God not speak to us, or a Sign come to us direct?' Likewise said those before them what was similar to their saying. Their hearts are all alike. We have certainly made the Signs plain for a people who firmly believe.” (2:118)

Here Allah says demand for miracles had been made in the past by people with a similar mentality, howevever, those who understand the nature of Revelation do not make such a demand and a sign/ miracle is not associated with revelation....I feel like there are lot of hidden meanings.