Does each people judge by what they have been given?

[Donald Hysa]

I am sorry if I sound severe I tend to keep it simple and clear. Yes  maybe I am wrong about him he may have not said what I think I have read in one of his articles I think it was about muslims idolizing Mohamed and how 90% of muslims who did that were wrong to do so I am not sure.I  am sorry I don't mean to be harsh saying this but what is the value of your religious guidance? Has it guided muslims better than other books guided people of other faiths? Has it made muslim countries better than  than other countries? Has  it made muslim better people than non muslims? You say only individuals themselves can reach conclusions about the Quran  then why do you rely on Joseph Islam's interpretation so much?  Cause it makes sense to you personally? 72 virgins make sense to a scuicide  bomber getting ready to kill innocent people but that doesn't mean he is right. Just because it looks like it makes sense doesn't mean it is right. You ask if I  have known God to  question his mercy? I don't know God I know his creation .In God's creation everything tries to kill tear eat one another causing unbelievable  pain and suffering.This is how God chosed   to make his creation.  Looking at this reality what could possible make you believe God has mercy? The answer is simple cause that is what makes you feel good most of people will believe and do  what makes them feel good instead of what has proven in practice to be good  and useful. Islam has not proven to be good and useful for humanity cause it does not make people better happier and  with a higher quality of life in any way.The greatest teacher is reality reality will always show you the truth instead of what makes you feel good.You should learn from this teacher its not flawed like human teachers  or confusing like religious guides

[Seraphina]

Please Donald one question at a time. One thing at a time. Your questions are a bit deep, so can't be answered in a second. First of all, the creation of God was not created to cause harm and spread mischief on land. The creation of God was meant to enjoy eternal hapiness, and they did for a while. It was when they revolted against God that they brought disgraces you mentioned. What you don't understand is that human being was not created in a robot-like manner. We were given the freedom of choice, the free will. The free will if used correctly would mean happiness, if used wrongly would mean disgrace. Have you ever brought a new tv, or a household machine? Ever noticed that the creator of it placed the manual with using instructions together with it inside the box? Why would he do it? It's because he knows best how he made it, so he knows what's the best way to use it. If you follow the instructions of that manual, the machine will benefit you greatly, if not, it will take you longer to get used to it and there is a risk you will accidentaly ruin it, and your whole family will be affected from it.
The same goes for our free will and the way we use it. God gave it to us to use it in our benefit, not in our harm. It was not God's guidance that brought disgrace to mankind, it was the abandonment of God's guidance that brought all of the disgraces. The kingdom of Israel in times of David and Solomon, for example, people rejoiced and enjoyed great benefit from their work, because in those times they were upholding the guidance of God in Torah and Zabur. Only when they left it and started spreading mischief on land the disgraces befell them. Same with muslims-so long as Quran was their constitution and was applied correctly, they enjoyed same as jews in time of David and Solomon-the whole world is familiar with the science, medicine and overall progress in every aspect of life in those times. For instance, I remember attending a class about Omar ibn Khatab (I guess we all know him) and during his ruling (similarily of the rest 3 righteous chalifas) not a single murder, not a single rape, not a single robbery was reported in the whole country. That's what it means to uphold God's law correctly-there is security and peace for all. It was only hundreds of years later when they started abandoning God's law and upholding man-made laws that they gradually came in the state they are today. Don't blame God and don't blame his guidance for the disgraces that humanity suffers, because:"Whatever good reaches you is from God, and whatever evil befalls you is from yourself." (Nisa, 79).
Last but not least, don't say about me what you don't know. I do not read only brother Joseph's studies. Believe it or not, I have read tafsirs and studies from many other scholars, and I have also studied jewish tanakh and christian doctrines. Focusing on islamic studies, you're right, I rely mostly on brother Joseph's works because he: 1.uses Quran to interpret Quran, 2.when asked a question answers with quranic evidence, and 3.doesn't use sources outside quran unless they're well documented. Hope it satisfies your curiosity.
Sorry if I made it too long, I expect to hear from others as well do they agree with me or not.

[Donald Hysa]

I am confused here was Gods creation (man) created to be tested or to enjoy eternal happines? Cause they are not the same. The creation of God is all made to cause suffering to each other I am not just talking for humans here. Have you not seen how the animals in nature are so cruel and cause so much pain to each other because they have no other choice ? Why would a merciful God create nature to be this way?
Whats the benefits of instructions if  people are going to interpret them in so many different ways?

The success of the  leaders you mention cannot be attributed to specific ideologies but to the leaders themselves.Great leaders make their countries great and the success of these countries is always credited to their leaders. And Omar was a great leader  one of the greatest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar  who has ever lived I think but not a righteous  caliph according to modern standarts cause he was an imperialist he expanded his caliphate with war and I don't think that " not a single murder or rape was reported" is an historical fact.Also there were a great famine and a great plague during his regime too so I guess Allah was not as pleased with him as you are.

[Seraphina]

1.Why don't you think it is a historic fact? Because you have evidence for it, or because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?
2.Famins and plagues were frequent in ancient times. There was a famine in Egypt in the time of prophet Joseph for example. But Joseph, under God's instructions, was able to save people from it. Well, Omar was not a prophet, but his personality and intellegence were useful in showing us how to apply quranic guidance in times of calamities.
3."Seems Allah was not pleased with him as you are"?! Honestly, you're ridiculos. Thank God He has given us answers in Quran. Check Quran 48:29.
Your sarcasm and arrogance throughout your posts is beginning to get me tired, seriously. If you have come to study and gain knowledge, great, but if you've come here to troll us and treat us with arrogant speach, then until you improve your self expression I won't respond anymore.
Selam

[Donald Hysa]

1.Its not an historical fact cause there is no evidence for it.Besides this caliph has I mentioned before expanded his caliphate with war so he could have not been  a righteous caliph.
2.The point I  was trying to make is why would Allah send  famine and plauges to a caliphate with righteous muslims and caliph
3.Maybe I am ridiculos but  I certanly am not a troll.You said it yourself my questions are deep a troll wouldn't ask deep questions
I assure you that I did not mean to offend you in any way and I am sorry if I  was sarcastic and arrogant.
Selam

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Donald,

I see that you are in deep engagement with the forum members. It does seem though that the feeling from some of them is that your style of expressing yourself is quite abrasive.

You have in fact apologised for that and I feel that members should accept it with the sincerity  in which you part it.

I understand your frustration when you question what benefit Islam brings when you see the state of many Muslims today.

However, Seraphina was trying to show you that man has free will and with that will he can do much evil. He is solely to blame for that, not God.

To elaborate further, there are a few articles that Joseph has written that you may wish to peruse, you can find the links to them below:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/suffering%20FM3.htm http://quransmessage.com/articles/tests%20FM3.htm

[Seraphina]

Dear brother Truthseeker, selam aleikoum,
You understood me correctly. But someone with many prejudices and no correct information wouldn't be able to. Yes, God gave mankind the free will to choose between his path or Satan's path, between good and evil. If God then would stop his choices or interfere in them, would it really be a free will? And the reason that the evil sometimes lasts longer and is not punished immediately is not because God lacks power or is slow, but because He is merciful, He gives a chance to get his message and repent even to his most disobedient creatures. Then if they continue up to the point when they have transgressed every limit, only then does he punish them. Take a look at Egypt's people and their king (for example), or people of Lot, or people of Hud and Saleh, and see what I mean. In the other hand, look at the case of Nineveh, Assyria, where Jonah was sent. You can check history for yourself, and the bible as well, they have been known as "the land washed in blood" which speaks volumes about their cruelty and transgression. But once they accepted the God's call and repented, God forgave them and refrained them from punishment.
But to understand this, and to understand why does He permitt some things, you need to get to know God better. And you can't know Him from people who keep themselves as his representers, just like you can't know a parent from his child: if your child would be a robber or a killer, would I be right if I asssumed you are as well, just because you are his parent? A parent can be the kindest person of the world, and yet his child can become perverted and corrupted, but the parent would never punish his child straightaway, without giving him a chance to repent and without talking to him. (Just an example for ilustration, otherwise we know human parent and God are not the same)
I hope I made my point clear brother Truthseeker, thanks again,
Your sister Seraphina

[Donald Hysa]

Selam Thank you for your understanding Truthseeker but my frustration comes  from the fact than  my points are not addressed .Seraphina  is trying to show me man has free will I understand that  but it is not what I asked. Here is one of my questions  in one my posts that was never  addressed "I don't know God I know his creation .In God's creation (animal kingdom) everything tries to kill tear eat one another causing unbelievable  pain and suffering.This is how God chosed   to make his creation.  Looking at this reality what could possible make you believe God has mercy?" If you see through my posts I never raised  questions about free will and evil.  I am curious to know your definition of evil Truthseeker. I assure whatever it is it is relative it changes from   one world to another  ( persecution of people  cause of their beliefs is evil in this world but divine justice in Afterlife) and whatever action you consider evil God does it.  See my post  "The basis of morality of islam" on general discussions  to understand better what I mean
 Thanks 

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Seraphina ,

I understand your position completely and really appreciate your input into the forum. I see from your posts how much time and effort you put in. May God bless your efforts.

Also, I just want to let everyone know that I am a female 

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Donald,

In terms of your question regarding the animal kingdom, it comes down to relativity.
All living creatures on Earth will die, that is a fact.

Now if someone feels that dying is unfair or cruel, it is their personal perspective. From one person to the next, each will have their own barometer of what they feel is acceptable. So you may feel that in the animal kingdom is cruelty whereas someone else may think that the nature of the animal kingdom is such that in order to survive, they have to kill.

If you think about it, animals hunt for food (predators) they only do it for a need, not in excess.

On the other hand, humans eat meat for pleasure, not survival, as they can in fact lifelong healthy lives as vegetarians/vegans?

With regard to my perspective of evil. I will hopefully post my opinion soon.

[Seraphina]

Amin, may Gid bless you too, and sorry for naming you "brother"

[Donald Hysa]

Truthseeker I am afraid you have misunderstood   me.I do not think  animal's  death is cruel. Their life is.It is unnecessary  cruel since animals are not tested by God or anything.Nature is very cruel every animal's life is full of suffering and struggling for survival. Now I understand that when it comes to  cruelty and pain in humanity you can always blame man and his free will. But man is a very small part  of creation.You can't blame animals for the cruelty in their world  cause they don't know better  so it must  be God who willed them to be like that so  God cannot be merciful.That was my point .There is no reason to believe God is mericiful and compassionate if you look at all cretion you will understand that

Thank you for your patience in answering me   

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Donald,

How do you know that animals are not tested by God? He tells us in the Quran that they are communities like us and they will be bought back to Him.

My personal view is that any accountability will be different because they are not vicergents as we are.

Also, I have made some comments on your post "The basis of morality in Islam".

Thanks

[Donald Hysa]

Truthseeker its kind of absurd  to think animals are tested they don't have any concepts of morality right and wrong or rules.
You are suggesting something that is not supported by any scriptures.
So since there is no basis in scriptures I am  think you just made this up cause you are unable to address the point i made

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

Why is it absurd? Obviously YOU haven't read from the scripture. I am talking about verse 6.38:

"And there is no creature on [or within] the Earth, or bird that flies with its wings except [that they are] communities like you. We have not neglected in their Register a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered"

Number one, they are communities (ummah) like us. Which means a group of living things having certain characteristics and circumstances like us.

Number two, they will a have a record and will be gathered unto their Lord just like us.

My comment actually was supported by scripture. In my posts I make it clear when I have an opinion based from scripture and when I have a personal feeling.

Also as a moderator on this forum, I am respectfully asking you to be careful with your wording. I have noticed other members objecting to the way you say things as you seem to be offending others.

Regarding my post, all you had to do was ask me where in the scripture did I get this idea from? Instead, you made accusations against me, saying "is not supported by any scriptures" just because you think it's 'absurd'.

You seem to me from your posts to find things unfair and unjust, absurd even. May I suggest that if you haven't read the Quran recently, that you do so. That way you can get a better idea of what is scripture versus what is personal opinion.