Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

[optimist]

People proclaim from housetops that Prophet Muhammed is an example for us in every way. And they go to great lengths to justify their statement.

When they are asked to show us how he is an example for us to emulate as regards our attitude to parents, they are lost. They immediately try to narrate his reported advice regarding parents, or they try to quote injunctions from Al Qur'an.

Duty to parents, according to Qur'an, is something Allah mentions immediately after His injunction not to deem partners unto Him!

Such a cardinal value, not found implemented in our Prophet's life?!

This being the historical truth, the question arises: Did the Prophet, who is reckoned as the ultimate ideal, really fulfill Allah's Deen?

It all means, that, striving for authority in the land, is not our goal. For, it is not indispensable for establishing the system of Salat, or, in other words, establishing Divine Laws, effectively.

The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.

In Al Qur'an, first, Allah praises the Sahaba and expresses the hope that they are such that if they are given power in the land, they will establish (as far is in their power) Salat, implement the system of Zakah, bid kindness, and also forbid evil. (22:41)

Then, in (24:55), He pledges power in the land to those among them who "believe and do righteous deeds". Finally, in the same verse, He concludes, that such power, coupled with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)

But when we join "striving for power", with Iqama Al Deen, or Iqama Al Salah, we are committing Shirk!

Brother  A. Ismail Sait,  Salaam Alaikum

I thought it is better to create a separate thread to make a few comments for your above post.  It is really disappointing to note you are discussing things under false premises. You seem to even bring up new definitions for shirk! 

Firstly, let me point out a wrong interpretation you have given for verse 22:41 (may be not deliberate on your part).  You wrote: “In Al Qur'an, first, Allah praises the Sahaba and expresses the hope that they are such that if they are given power in the land, they will establish (as far is in their power) Salat, implement the system of Zakah, bid kindness, and also forbid evil. (22:41)”.   

Your comment “Allah expresses the hope that…” is a blunder.  What is stated by Allah is strongly worded statement, the character of the Muslims as to what they WILL DO if they are given POWER in the land (Makkannahum Fil Ardu) meaning governmental authority to rule.   You further stated they will establish “as far is in their power”! which is rather a silly comment in the context of the verse.  This comment could be relevant if no authority is given on the land (can be applicable for people like you and me).   You are knowingly or unknowingly diluting the message contained in the verse.  The reason for this style of interpretation is clear from your comment, “The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.”  Appreciate if you can further explain what you actually wanted to convey by this comment.  Do you know what Quran has stated :

"Do you then believe in a part of the book and reject the rest But what shall be the recompense for those among you who behave like this, except disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous chastisement".(2:85)  The Quranic Laws are meant to be established in totality, not whatever convenient for us.  Therefore, it is imperative that Muslims must strive hard to establish an Islamic society based on Quranic Laws. 

It must be understood that, obedience to Divine Laws is not a thing belonging to the individual plane in the sense that one might, of his own, consult the Quran, interpret it for himself and act according to his individual interpretation. The obedience has to be disciplined and ordered under an organised system (called State in the present day terminology) controlled by a central authority.  Such a state was first established for them by our Prophet (pbuh) and the pattern that was presented by him continued to be followed for some time after his death and the rest is history we know.  Suffice to state that the way of life prescribed by the Quran can be established effectively only through establishment of an Islamic state based on the Quran.  It is not required to tell you that the Quranic Laws are not just Laws covering our personal and private affairs.   For the time being, let me quote a few verses from the Quran.   I shall make further comments later, Insha Allah.

 “Those who do not judge according to what God has revealed are unbelievers.” 5:47.

“…So judge between them according to what God has revealed and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the finally established truth that has come to you…”  5:48.

And they who have attained to faith, and who have forsaken the domain of evil and are striving hard in God's cause, as well as those who shelter and succour [them] – it is they, they who are truly believers!  8:74.

" Follow the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition. 7:3

"And to them (the prophets) He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed."(2:213)

Shall I seek other than Allah for Judge, when how it is who hath revealed unto you this Book fully explained (6:115).

Whose do not judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are indeed kafirs (5:44)

Kind regards
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

The meaning of "hope", according to dictionary.reference.com is:

{Verb (used with object)

to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.

to believe, desire, or trust: I hope that my work will be satisfactory.}

Your quote:

“Those who do not judge according to what God has revealed are unbelievers.” 5:47.

Even inside the State declared by the Prophet, only the Prophet himself or his appointees were allowed to dispense justice. What about the others who were minding their own business?

Your quote:

“…So judge between them according to what God has revealed and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the finally established truth that has come to you…”  5:48."

There is no harm in quoting part of a verse if you indicate it is only a part, as you have rightly indicated by the dots.

But dots are not everything. Read verse 42 of the same Sura.

That, according to qxp is:

[They are upholders of falsehood and they make wealth by unfair means. They are bribed
into spying. If they come to you asking to judge among them, the choice to accept
or reject their request is yours. You have the right to disclaim jurisdiction since
they have not yet accepted the Qur’an and they have the Torah. If you disclaim
jurisdiction they cannot harm you at all. However, if you decide to judge among
them, do so equitably. God loves the equitable.]

Note the bold and underlined if in the above quote. (Emphasis mine.)

Your quote:

"And they who have attained to faith, and who have forsaken the domain of evil and are striving hard in God's cause, as well as those who shelter and succour [them] – it is they, they who are truly believers!"  8:74.

This refers to the then Muhajirs who sought refuge in Medina, and the Ansars who helped them.

It goes without saying that we must cooperate in good deeds and support the truthful, who may have become victims of persecution.

Your quote:

" Follow the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition." 7:3

OK.

Your quote:

"And to them (the prophets) He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed."(2:213)

This is not just a reference to the Department of Judiciary which is part of an Islamic State. Nor does it refer solely to an Islamic State, nor particularly to it's Law Enforcement agencies.

You have omitted the dots here. Read the full verse, and also similar verses.

It refers to all the controversies created in the world regarding the Truth of Allah's Revelation, Prophets, Judgment Day, etc. For a person whose parents are long dead, you can't prescribe: "...If one of your parents, or both of them attain old age in your presence,..." (17:23)

Similarly, passing enforceable judgments in civil or criminal cases is the prerogative of government appointed Judges, not you and me.

Your quote:

"Shall I seek other than Allah for Judge, when how it is who hath revealed unto you this Book fully explained" (6:115).

Consider the underlined words.

Your quote:

"Whoso do not judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are indeed kafirs" (5:44)

A Judge who is a true Believer will judge only according to God's Commands, to the best of his knowledge and belief.
Similarly, the Islamic State will constitute its Judiciary to pass judgements only according to Al Qur'an.

Also, even outside an Islamic State, true Believers will never give their opinions or judgments flouting divine commands, equity, and justice.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Your quote:

“…So judge between them according to what God has revealed and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the finally established truth that has come to you…”  5:48."

There is no harm in quoting part of a verse if you indicate it is only a part, as you have rightly indicated by the dots.

But dots are not everything. Read verse 42 of the same Sura.

That, according to qxp is:

[They are upholders of falsehood and they make wealth by unfair means. They are bribed
into spying. If they come to you asking to judge among them, the choice to accept
or reject their request is yours. You have the right to disclaim jurisdiction since
they have not yet accepted the Qur’an and they have the Torah. If you disclaim
jurisdiction they cannot harm you at all. However, if you decide to judge among
them, do so equitably. God loves the equitable.]

Note the bold and underlined if in the above quote. (Emphasis mine.)

Salaam!

My comments are very clear, but your comments are still very vague.   Let us focus on the point brother Ismail.  Let me ask you two straight forward questions to get to know your point clearly;   Do you agree with me;

1.  Islam is a way of life which can take practical shape in totality only in a Islamic State establised based on Divine Laws contained in the Quran.  YES or NO

2.  All judgments related to all aspects of life (all CIVIL LAWS and CRIMINAL LAWs) must be based on the directives and instructions contained in the Quran and therefore establishment of an Islamic society with governmental power  is required to implement all Islamic/ Quranic laws  (ofcourse it will be the duty of an Islamic state to legislate the clauses and sub-clauses of Qur'an's basic Shari'at laws or principles, according to the social, cultural and geo-political conditions of the time, by consensus (means in consultation with all) based on the general directives contained in the Quran. It is precisely because of this, the prophet was commanded to consult his companions (Qur'an 3:159 & 42:38) and followers).    YES or NO

Now let me make one comment for the quote you made from QXP.  Appreciate telling me clearly what is the message you want to convey to me when you wrote "Note the bold and underlined if in the above quote".   I believe you are not saying that the prophet can sometimes refuse to Judge according to what Allah has revealed (Allah forbid)?   Anyhow, appreciate if you check all other translations as well.  The following from Parwez may be also helpful and you may cross check with qxp. 

[Parwez] [5:42] To reiterate: The Jews listen to you only to coin lies. They devour that which is unlawful. Their religious leaders have the authority to decide their disputes but they adopt a very cunning technique – if they want to favour a person and feel that judgement according to Muslim Law will be favourable to them, they advise him to go to the Rasool.  O Rasool! they come to you for judgement, it is up to you to take up their case or decline to interfere. If you decline, it will do you no harm, but if you judge between them, judge justly. Allah likes those who judge fairly.  

"Shall I seek other than Allah for Judge, when how it is who hath revealed unto you this Book fully explained" (6:115).

Consider the underlined words.

My humble request to you again to focus on the topic.   

أَفَغَيْرَ اللَّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا Shall I seek other than Allah for Judge /  Do you want that I should seek an authority other than Allah when He has sent down for you the Book which states everything clearly?

Regards
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Civil and Criminal Jurisprudence is not what Al Qur'an is all about.

If somebody is unable to implement his own version of Qur'anic Jurisprudence in a purportedly Islamic State, or outside it, he will not be accused of living a truncated Islam.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

Civil and Criminal Jurisprudence is not what Al Qur'an is all about.

Salam,

Thanks for admitting (indirectly) all civil and criminal jurisprudence are part of Quran.  I was waiting all along at the least an indirect admission from you on this point.  This implies that Muslims should aim and it shall be the responsibility of Muslims to see that they are in a position to implement all Quranic Laws, including all civil and criminal laws. 

If somebody is unable to implement his own version of Qur'anic Jurisprudence in a purportedly Islamic State, or outside it, he will not be accused of living a truncated Islam.

A society is nothing but a collection of individuals who have the potential of enforcing change.   Every individual is directly or indirectly responsible for what happens in society.  The Quran gives a graphic illustration of this in Sura Sabaa (the leaders and the led quarreling about, and blaming one another for, society’s ills): “If you just imagine the time when the transgressors will be in Alllah’s presence blaming one another for their mistakes. The led will say to the leaders, ‘but  for your misleading leadership we would have followed Allah’s laws’. The leaders will say, ‘Why blame us? We didn’t stop you from following the right path. you wronged of your own choice. You blame us wrongly!’ The led will say, ‘ You crafted a society which kept us away from the right path. How can you escape responsibility?” (34:31-33). But, excuses of both will be rejected and punishment will come to them equally: (37:33) - The leaders for their wrongdoing and the led for being their power base.

Please note that the Quran does not accept as valid the excuse of being helpless from free-willed Man.   HOWEVER It is perfectly possible, though, that individuals fail in their initial attempt(s) to bring about change in their society. But this is very different from presenting helplessness as an excuse for inaction. People who try are commended by Allah (2:157), others will naturally go to hell (4:97)

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

You wrote:

Thanks for admitting (indirectly) all civil and criminal jurisprudence are part of Quran.

I never admitted either directly of indirectly that "all civil and criminal jurisprudence"are part of Quran.

You wrote:

I was waiting all along at the least an indirect admission from you on this point.

Are you reading my posts? The following is a quote from my first post, as quoted by you in this new thread:

The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.

You wrote:

This implies that Muslims should aim and it shall be the responsibility of Muslims to see that they are in a position to implement all Quranic Laws, including all civil and criminal laws.

This is exactly where I differed, and still differ.

A society is nothing but a collection of individuals who have the potential of enforcing change.

From which authority (in the field of Social Science), did you bring this definition of Society, that it is nothing but...?

You wrote:

Every individual is directly or indirectly responsible for what happens in society.

Accordtng to qxp, Verse 5:105 means:

O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! You are responsible for yourselves.
He who goes astray cannot harm you if you are rightly guided. All of you will
return to God; and He will make you understand all that you were doing in life.

It is clear that we are not going to be held responsible for whatever happens in society, even if some of them go to Hell, provided we have fulfilled our responsibility of inculcating integrity of character, practicing good deeds, bidding kindness, and forbidding evil, and inculcating constancy and consistency.

You wrote:

The Quran gives a graphic illustration of this in Sura Sabaa (the leaders and the led quarreling about, and blaming one another for, society’s ills): “If you just imagine the time when the transgressors will be in Alllah’s presence blaming one another for their mistakes. The led will say to the leaders, ‘but  for your misleading leadership we would have followed Allah’s laws’. The leaders will say, ‘Why blame us? We didn’t stop you from following the right path. you wronged of your own choice. You blame us wrongly!’ The led will say, ‘ You crafted a society which kept us away from the right path. How can you escape responsibility?” (34:31-33)

34:31-33 is about the oppressed and the arrogant.

The oppressed, if they can, should migrate to where they will not be unduly oppressed. (4:97)

Only those oppressed, who are unable to do so, will be spared in the Hereafter. (4:98)

Enough is enough.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Thanks for admitting (indirectly) all civil and criminal jurisprudence are part of Quran.
I never admitted either directly of indirectly that "all civil and criminal jurisprudence"are part of Quran.

Salaam!

When you discuss kindly always focus on the topic.   You know what I had intended by the message.  I was thanking you for accepting Islam as a comprehensive system of life covering guidance for all aspects of our life including all civil and criminal laws.

You wrote:
I was waiting all along at the least an indirect admission from you on this point.
Are you reading my posts? The following is a quote from my first post, as quoted by you in this new thread:
The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.

On the one hand you admit Quran is a complete way of life and on the hand you claim that it is ok to restrict Islam into our personal affairs.   By the way, is there any punishment prescribed for "guilty of frayed concentration?"

You wrote:
This implies that Muslims should aim and it shall be the responsibility of Muslims to see that they are in a position to implement all Quranic Laws, including all civil and criminal laws.
This is exactly where I differed, and still differ.

Then why Quran  provides comprehensive guidance touching all aspects of our life.  If Muslims are not collectively responsible, you say who is responsible to establish an Islamic society.  Is it Allah who is responsible?   You sound similar to the Jews who told Moses YOU AND YOUR GOD GO AND FIGHT, WE ARE GOING TO SIT RIGHT HERE.    You should substantiate your point with proof from the Quran.

Every individual is directly or indirectly responsible for what happens in society.
Accordtng to qxp, Verse 5:105 means:
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! You are responsible for yourselves.
He who goes astray cannot harm you if you are rightly guided. All of you will
return to God; and He will make you understand all that you were doing in life.

If you are saying that every one shall be responsible his or her own actions I agree with you.  No one will bear the burden of another.   Unlike QXP,  Parwez interpreted the initial part of the verse يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْفُسَكُمْ as O Jama’at-ul-Momineen you alone are responsible for the development of your personality (Nafs).  And the next underlined part as "If you follow the right path which may be different from your ancestors’ path, you will not be harmed by those who follow the wrong path"

Anyhow,  Islam fixes responsibilities upon man based on his individual capacity as well as collective, for instance, if an evil is going to take place, if a person or a group of persons succeeded to prevent the evil from taking place  the society may be saved from the responsibility.  But if no one takes action to prevent the evil from happening, each and every individual in the society shall have to share the responsibility collectively (not saying equal responsibility).  Just the following verses  (out of many) must be sufficient for anyone to know the collective responsibility of the Muslims. 

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

[2:143] Our objective is to make you a people with a universal outlook to be equidistant from all other peoples i.e. neither leaning towards any particular people nor estranged from another. Your responsibility is to keep a watch over the activities of other people of the world (to see that no nation is oppressing the other) and the responsibility of the Rasool (being the head of the Divinely-ordained System – 3/109, 22/78) is to watch over your activities.

وَلْتَكُنْ مِنْكُمْ أُمَّةٌ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى الْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

[3:103] For the establishment of this system it is necessary that you should be such a Jama’at (Ummah) that calls all humanity to the Quran (3/109, 2/143, 22/78) enjoining what it recognises as right and forbidding what it declares wrong. If you do this, you will lead a life of progress and prosperity (23/1).

You have to re-read my the last two para in my previous post and post a counter in detail with the support of sufficient points.

Regards,
Optimist 

[optimist]

It is clear that we are not going to be held responsible for whatever happens in society, even if some of them go to Hell, provided we have fulfilled our responsibility of inculcating integrity of character, practicing good deeds, bidding kindness, and forbidding evil, and inculcating constancy and consistency.

I do not know your definition of practicing "good deeds", "forbidding evil", etc.  Let me just ask you to think why all prophets and their people, including our prophet and the sahabas faced strong opposition from others.  If  the prophet and the Sahabas had lived just concentrating on certain “good deeds” without challeging the prevailing system, and undertaking some good social activities they would not have faced any problem from anyone.   Here is a beautiful explanation for verse 2:157, a verse I mentioned in my previous post.

[2:157] This struggle will provide you with many opportunities to test your own mettle. You may encounter wars and massacres and also be confronted with scarcity of food and loss of life and property or with devastation of fields and orchards. Such ordeals may take place but ultimately those who remain steadfast and do not waver in their commitment to establish Allah’s System, will be successful. They meet every challenge saying: “We have dedicated ourselves to the establishment of the Divine System and come what may we will continue advancing towards that goal.” They are the people who are considered to be eminently deserving of blessings and laudation by their Creator and Sustainer. they will certainly attain their goal. 

As against this here is another group of people;

[4:97-98] Hijra plays a very important role in the life of Momineen. Those who are content to live a wretched and oppressed life in an ungodly society will be asked by the Malaika at the time of their death: “Why did you lead such a wretched life?” They will answer, “We were weak and helpless.” The Malaika will then say, “Was not the earth of Allah vast enough for you to undertake Hijra to some favourable place”? These people lead a life of Jahannam in this world and in the Hereafter also, they will abide in Jahannam.  The exception is those men, women and children who were truly weak and unable to seek means of escape and did not know whither to go. For them there is hope for leniency from Allah Who is Forbearing and Protective.

Regards,
Optimist

[optimist]

Here are verses 7:163- 165  relevant to the discussion.

وَاسْأَلْهُمْ عَنِ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِي كَانَتْ حَاضِرَةَ الْبَحْرِ إِذْ يَعْدُونَ فِي السَّبْتِ إِذْ تَأْتِيهِمْ حِيتَانُهُمْ يَوْمَ سَبْتِهِمْ شُرَّعًا وَيَوْمَ لَا يَسْبِتُونَ لَا تَأْتِيهِمْ كَذَٰلِكَ نَبْلُوهُمْ بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْسُقُونَ

O Rasool ask them about the city which stood by the sea where the fish came to the water surface openly whenever its citizens observed the law of Allah (2/65, 4/154, 5/60, 16/124). Thus We tried them by means of their own iniquitous doings.

وَإِذْ قَالَتْ أُمَّةٌ مِنْهُمْ لِمَ تَعِظُونَ قَوْمًا اللَّهُ مُهْلِكُهُمْ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا قَالُوا مَعْذِرَةً إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ

A group amongst the citizens admonished them for not adhering to Allah’s laws (7:159) whilst some said to this group that it was futile to exert themselves for those who are bent upon self-destruction. The former said: “We do this to absolve ourselves from any charge of neglect of duty by Allah, and in the hope that they might perchance abstain from wrong-doings.” (6/70, 15/6). 

فَلَمَّا نَسُوا مَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ أَنْجَيْنَا الَّذِينَ يَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ السُّوءِ وَأَخَذْنَا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا بِعَذَابٍ بَئِيسٍ بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْسُقُونَ(

When the wrong-doers totally disregarded the warning given to them a severe chastisement was inflicted upon them for all their iniquity, but those who admonished them were saved. 

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

You wrote:

On the one hand you admit Quran is a complete way of life and on the hand you claim that it is ok to restrict Islam into our personal affairs. By the way, is there any punishment prescribed for "guilty of frayed concentration?

I never claimed that it is ok to restrict Islam into our personal affairs.

Frayed concentration is what is wrought by trying to concentrate on both our responsibility to God as well as extra responsibilities that we impose on ourselves.

You wrote:

Then why Quran  provides comprehensive guidance touching all aspects of our life.  If Muslims are not collectively responsible, you say who is responsible to establish an Islamic society.  Is it Allah who is responsible?   You sound similar to the Jews who told Moses YOU AND YOUR GOD GO AND FIGHT, WE ARE GOING TO SIT RIGHT HERE. You should substantiate your point with proof from the Quran.

Did you mean Islamic State by Islamic society?

Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.

I will pay Zakah only when God grants me the wherewithal for it.

2:233, 2:286, 4:84, 6:152, 7:42, 23:62, 65:7,...The thread that runs through all these six verses is that Allah makes us responsible for anything, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities.

You wrote:

If you are saying that every one shall be responsible his or her own actions I agree with you.  No one will bear the burden of another.   Unlike QXP,  Parwez interpreted the initial part of the verse يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْفُسَكُمْ as O Jama’at-ul-Momineen you alone are responsible for the development of your personality (Nafs).  And the next underlined part as "If you follow the right path which may be different from your ancestors’ path, you will not be harmed by those who follow the wrong path"

To tell you the truth, I am no fan of Parvez. Much less, either Shabbeer, or Moudoodi.

I have friends among Thableegis, Moudoodees, since about half a century. Likewise among Parvezis since about two decades.

Parvez has two distinctly different Qur'an Commentaries to his credit:

(1) Mafhoomul Qur'an

(2) Mathalibul Furqan.

As for the latter, I have seen only it's initial six volumes. I do not Know whether he was able to complete his Mathalibul Furqan before his demise. May Allah grant him His Rahmath.

As for the quote, your  words, If you are saying that every one shall be responsible his or her own actions I agree with you.  No one will bear the burden of another, are satisfactory.

Your quote:

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

Here the second partوَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا is the key to the first part. Is the Prophet responsible for whatever each and every individual of the  Ummah thinks or does?

Similarly we are responsible only to do our utmost towards Amr Bil Ma'roof, and Nahy 'anil Munkar.

You quote:


وَلْتَكُنْ مِنْكُمْ أُمَّةٌ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى الْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

This is not an injunction to form a government.

You said in your last post:

Please note that the Quran does not accept as valid the excuse of being helpless from free-willed Man.

What do you mean by "free-willed"?

You wrote:

HOWEVER It is perfectly possible, though, that individuals fail in their initial attempt(s) to bring about change in their society. But this is very different from presenting helplessness as an excuse for inaction. People who try are commended by Allah (2:157), others will naturally go to hell (4:97)


Mu'min, if he is a little bit informed, will never plead helplessness if he had even the least possible freedom to bid good and forbid bad. At least he will do it in his family. Or if he is in jail, at least he will talk to his wardens about Allah and the Hereafter. Sure.

You said:


I do not know your definition of practicing "good deeds", "forbidding evil", etc.  Let me just ask you to think why all prophets and their people, including our prophet and the sahabas faced strong opposition from others.  If  the prophet and the Sahabas had lived just concentrating on certain “good deeds” without challeging the prevailing system, and undertaking some good social activities they would not have faced any problem from anyone.   Here is a beautiful explanation for verse 2:157, a verse I mentioned in my previous post.

[2:157] This struggle will provide you with many opportunities to test your own mettle. You may encounter wars and massacres and also be confronted with scarcity of food and loss of life and property or with devastation of fields and orchards. Such ordeals may take place but ultimately those who remain steadfast and do not waver in their commitment to establish Allah’s System, will be successful. They meet every challenge saying: “We have dedicated ourselves to the establishment of the Divine System and come what may we will continue advancing towards that goal.” They are the people who are considered to be eminently deserving of blessings and laudation by their Creator and Sustainer. they will certainly attain their goal.

Actually, the matter starts from 2:155.

Those who steadfastly practice Amr bil ma'roof and Nahy 'anil munkar do face some obstacles. Their patience is tested, each according to his capacity. Everybody believes in it. Even Lucman alaihissalam enjoined his son to practice it, and praised it's special status.

You quoted:

4:97-98] Hijra plays a very important role in the life of Momineen. Those who are content to live a wretched and oppressed life in an ungodly society will be asked by the Malaika at the time of their death: “Why did you lead such a wretched life?” They will answer, “We were weak and helpless.” The Malaika will then say, “Was not the earth of Allah vast enough for you to undertake Hijra to some favourable place”? These people lead a life of Jahannam in this world and in the Hereafter also, they will abide in Jahannam.  The exception is those men, women and children who were truly weak and unable to seek means of escape and did not know whither to go. For them there is hope for leniency from Allah Who is Forbearing and Protective.

4:97-98 is about the downright oppressed folk.

They better migrate to where they will not be persecuted. Otherwise face Hell. Only those who are irretrievably constrained will be pardoned.

Al Hamdu Lillah, like all true Mu'mins, I believe in 7:163- 165.

And those who were guilty of kufr among Bani Isra'eel, were cursed through the tongues of David and Jesus.... They were not forbidding the evil which they were wont to. (5:78)

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.



 






   

[optimist]

Frayed concentration is what is wrought by trying to concentrate on both our responsibility to God as well as extra responsibilities that we impose on ourselves.

We have only one responsibility, which is to surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran and to establish a society which can implement all its Laws.

Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.

God will NOT grant power to rule on the land unless we sincerely make efforts to achieve this objective.  The power to rule the land is not granted to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.
 

To tell you the truth, I am no fan of Parvez. Much less, either Shabbeer, or Moudoodi.

It is only when you repeatedly quoted qxp and highlighted even words mentioned by Dr. Shabbir I took your attention to the possibility of different interpretations.  Good to know you are not a fan of any scholar.   As for me, I am only a fan of Allah and His system only.  However I love all scholars who try to reform the society for the establishment of the divine system contained in the Quran in totality.

2:233, 2:286, 4:84, 6:152, 7:42, 23:62, 65:7,...The thread that runs through all these six verses is that Allah makes us responsible for anything, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities.

Here your comments are much more focused.  Thanks for this.  Can I deduct from your above comment that we are responsible and should be ready to sacrifice even our lives for the establish all divine laws contained in the Quran as much as humanly possible for us to do so? 

Your quote:

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

Here the second partوَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا is the key to the first part. Is the Prophet responsible for whatever each and every individual of the  Ummah thinks or does?

No one said  prophet in any way responsible either directly or indirectly for the actions of others.  No one, including the prophet, will be held responsible for the actions of others.    The responsibility of the prophet is to discharge his responsibilities and duties being the head of the Divinely-ordained System enjoying the wholehearted obedience and support from Muslims who are collectively subservient to the Law of the Qur'an.   This is what the verse is stating. 

What do you mean by "free-willed"?

It means that man is gifted with freedom to to choose - either to live by God given Laws or any others laws.   But you may please concentrate on whatever I said after this comment.  Thanks

This is not an injunction to form a government.

It is strange to note that, according to you, there is no injunction in the Quran to form a government  and the Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.  You seem to assume that Allah will bestow us with government authority without any human effort.   Even assuming, not admitting, there is no  injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government, so long as the Quran contains Laws that can be made applicable only under a system of government with authority to rule, it is not EVEN required any injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government.   When you put a glass of milk before your child, you do not need to verbally instruct your child to drink.  The instruction is there by default.  However, Quran gives instructions at various places through different ways to follow and establish all the divine laws contained in the Quran.  And we are responsible to see that all Quranic laws are implemented and of course Allah will hold us responsible for any dereliction of duty in this regard, borrowing your own comments, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities. 

Finally, even the terms like Nahy 'anil munkar - forbidding evil -, which you repeatedly mentioned in your posts is not something related to our private affairs only.  Ultimately, it would require a governmental authority to fight against and eradicate all evils.   

Assalamu alaikum

Kind regards
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

You said:

We have only one responsibility, which is to surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran and to establish a society which can implement all its Laws.

After stating that we have only one responsibility, you have enumerated two responsibilities.

You said:

God will NOT grant power to rule on the land unless we sincerely make efforts to achieve this objective.  The power to rule the land is not granted to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.

We are not asked to strive in order to achieve the power to rule.

You wrote:

As for me, I am only a fan of Allah and His system only.  However I love all scholars who try to reform the society for the establishment of the divine system contained in the Quran in totality.

According to dictionary. reference .com, the meaning of fan is:

fan
2 [fan]
noun
an enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

World English dictionary:

fan 2  (fæn)
 
— n
1.    an ardent admirer of a pop star, film actor, football team, etc
2.    a devotee of a sport, hobby, etc

You wrote:

Here your comments are much more focused.  Thanks for this.  Can I deduct from your above comment that we are responsible and should be ready to sacrifice even our lives for the establish all divine laws contained in the Quran as much as humanly possible for us to do so?

What do you mean by the word "establish" in the context of your above statement?

You wrote:


It is strange to note that, according to you, there is no injunction in the Quran to form a government  and the Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.  You seem to assume that Allah will bestow us with government authority without any human effort.   Even assuming, not admitting, there is no  injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government, so long as the Quran contains Laws that can be made applicable only under a system of government with authority to rule, it is not EVEN required any injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government.   When you put a glass of milk before your child, you do not need to verbally instruct your child to drink.  The instruction is there by default.  However, Quran gives instructions at various places through different ways to follow and establish all the divine laws contained in the Quran.  And we are responsible to see that all Quranic laws are implemented and of course Allah will hold us responsible for any dereliction of duty in this regard, borrowing your own comments, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities.

Just because there are divine commandments regarding married life, do I need to marry, compulsorily?

You wrote:

Finally, even the terms like Nahy 'anil munkar - forbidding evil -, which you repeatedly mentioned in your posts is not something related to our private affairs only.  Ultimately, it would require a governmental authority to fight against and eradicate all evils.

Enforcement is not necessarily part of Amr bil Ma'roof, and Nahy 'Anil Munkar.

Regards,
Al Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

You wrote:


It is strange to note that, according to you, there is no injunction in the Quran to form a government  and the Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.  You seem to assume that Allah will bestow us with government authority without any human effort.   Even assuming, not admitting, there is no  injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government, so long as the Quran contains Laws that can be made applicable only under a system of government with authority to rule, it is not EVEN required any injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government.   When you put a glass of milk before your child, you do not need to verbally instruct your child to drink.  The instruction is there by default.  However, Quran gives instructions at various places through different ways to follow and establish all the divine laws contained in the Quran.  And we are responsible to see that all Quranic laws are implemented and of course Allah will hold us responsible for any dereliction of duty in this regard, borrowing your own comments, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities.

Just because there are divine commandments regarding married life, do I need to marry, compulsorily?

There are divine commandments to fight like the following;

And how could you refuse to fight in the cause of God and of the utterly helpless men and women and children who are crying, "O our Sustainer! Lead us forth [to freedom] out of this land whose people are oppressors, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, a protector, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, one who will bring us succour!" (4:75)

Will you ask the same question, i.e., just because there are divine commandments to fight, do Muslims need to fight, compulsorily?

Regards
Optimist

[optimist]

Just as an additional note....even in the example you have provided, I believe, you are compulsorily responsible to support the divine system of marriage (you should marry) unless you have any valid justification not to marry.  As you are aware Quran instructs those who do not have sufficient means to marry to wait until the divine system provides them with means.

[optimist]

Again to continue from my last post.....
 
Allow me keep this thread alive for some more time, Insha Allah,  because, many times, during our discussions in the forum, we are guilty  (including myself) focusing on less important aspects of Islam.

You said:

We have only one responsibility, which is to surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran and to establish a society which can implement all its Laws.

After stating that we have only one responsibility, you have enumerated two responsibilities.

To surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran will cover all our responsibilities at different levels.   The reason why I mentioned second part is because it is imperative to have a society with governmental power in order to fullfill our obligation to surrender ourselves completely to the Divine Laws.  This is not altogether a different responsibility.

You said:
God will NOT grant power to rule on the land unless we sincerely make efforts to achieve this objective.  The power to rule the land is not granted to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.

We are not asked to strive in order to achieve the power to rule.

Just one verse is sufficient to demolish your false claim.

"It is not for any human being unto whom Allah has given the Book and wisdom and the Divine Message, that he should afterwards have said unto mankind, 'Obey me instead of Allah'. He should rather say, 'You should be amongst those who are subservient to Allah by following His Book which you study and teach others'."(3:78)

According to this verse, no one, how highly placed one may be, even as high as a Messenger of Allah, has the right to make people subservient to himself.   In the Quran - Allah says: "Inna deena indalahil-Islam." (Certainly, the only acceptable way which Allah will accept is Islam).  Therefore it is imperative for us to obey Allah and follow all of His commandments mentioned in the Quran. 

Now, how can you establish, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?   Also, if it is not required to strive in order to achieve the power to rule, can you tell me, following which guidance the prophet and the sahabas strived hard and established an Islamic society with power to rule? 

Regards,
Optimist