Messages

31

General Discussions / Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View

« on: January 24, 2016, 10:30:29 PM »

If this is threatened in any way, the discussions are curtailed and reoffending users warned or banned. It is really that simple.

Thanks for opening the thread.

But as you have clearly stated above "reoffending users warned or banned". That's the action I expect Mods to take rather than to take the rather drastic and puzzling action of closing a thread. If 10 ppl in a thread are happily discussing something and then one individual disobeys the rule is it logical to lock the entire thread or to simply warn/suspend/ban the offending user?

Hope the above makes sense as I don't think you guys really understood it in my first post. On other forums, the Mods warn the user each time they breach the rules and post the warning into the thread so others users are aware and can be educated in the forum rules. After a number of warnings they are suspended.

Regards

32

General Discussions / Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View

« on: January 24, 2016, 07:21:52 PM »

Ok, I'll edit my signature as soon as i get to my laptop.

Natheless, may i ask why are ye censoring what the minority wants to discuss ?

I thought this was a "quran-alone" forum ?! Doesn't the Quran advocate a planate earth ?!?

This matter has been deemed exhausted on this forum. 

Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1790

The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?  New
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1611.0

Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II  New
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1778.0

You are of course free to take these thoughts and express them on a more appropriate forum of your choosing or one of your own forums. This is a tightly managed forum focusing on meaningful academic debates regarding the Quran. This forum is a Quran-centric forum (Not Quran alone). You have shared your thoughts as have others. This matter is now closed and please kindly do not labour the topic or the decision that has been made. Thanks!

Hi Mod Team,

I was trying to have a "meaningful academic debate" in the thread Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran. with Hassan but now it's closed simply because hicham said a few words in it. Could you guys not have simply blocked him in that thread or if he is breaking house rules then suspend/ban him from the forum? I just don't understand why you are going around locking threads whenever you feel like it.

My personal thoughts are that hicham should be allowed to have his own thread on the "Flat Earth" and whoever wishes can join him in it. People should be free to discuss whatever they want for however long they want as long as they are willing to and are not annoying others. Those that don't want to discuss the "Flat Earth" can simply ignore the thread like they already ignore other threads which they are not interested in.

Thanks

33

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 24, 2016, 05:20:05 PM »

Actually, beside Q88:20, i also presented you with a clear and stable, RAW footage (with a rectilinear lens) showing the FLAT earth from a high-altitude of 120,000 ft, along with a scientific paper by the Optical Society of America, testifying that the required elevation for detecting earth's alleged curvature is somewhat between 14,000 and 35,000 ft high !

Hicham,

I actually hold the view that geocentric is model is correct but I find it hard to accept that the earth is flat but I'm open to should there be more convincing evidence than you've already cited.

My question to you is, let's say the earth is flat and geocentrism is true, is there much point in trying to convince believers in God of this?

34

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 24, 2016, 07:03:09 AM »

With regard to 2:73 I strongly recommend point 13 here:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1

And as for 2:260:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0

Both interpretations are weak and bizarre in my opinion. Thankfully they're not common.

35

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 23, 2016, 04:39:27 PM »

Salaam samson,

Off topic question: Do you know anything about the OT and the NT?

Yes i've read them.

36

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 22, 2016, 06:19:39 AM »

With respect to the verses you cited me, please bear in mind that I have never stated that God cannot do things (anything) instantly; indeed He can.

I accept that you never denied that God can't do things in instant. I was simply responding to the below.

Also in other verses of the Quran it says God brings the dead back to life in moments or cures those who are ill/blind instantly.

Would you be so kind as to cite the verses which suggest that those acts occur in an instant?

As Br. Hamzeh has already alluded to, the common ancestry could be anything from sounding clay (Arabic: salsalin) from black mud (Arabic: ham-in) altered.

The above is very vague.

My argument was simply that what may have occurred at an instant with/to God may, not have come about so instantly to us. So, I was calling you out on your usage of the phrase Be and it is as example of the instant creation of the universe.

As I said earlier, I believe "six" days is of significance and the fact that there is no further confirmation that those days are thousands or tens of thousands of years or more. It's "six" days because it confirms Genesis in the Bible and something we can relate to in terms of a week.

Science is already shaky on Big Bang theory, just a matter of time before it's thrown in the bin.

With respect to the scientific evidence I was referring to in earlier post, I am going to need to ask you to bear patient with me and I shall cite you ample evidence.

Just one or 2 evidences will do for now as if too many is listed it's hard to take it all in and respond to them.

Thanks

37

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 21, 2016, 06:33:50 AM »

Also in other verses of the Quran it says God brings the dead back to life in moments or cures those who are ill/blind instantly.

Would you be so kind as to cite the verses which suggest that those acts occur in an instant?

   
So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus Allah bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand. - 2:73

- Dead body brought back to life after being struck.

“Or like the one who passed by a town and it had tumbled over its roofs. He said: “Oh! How will Allah ever bring it to life after its death?” So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: “How long did you remain (dead)?” He (the man) said: “(Perhaps) I remained (dead) a day or part of a day”. He said: “Nay, you have remained (dead) for a hundred years, look at your food and your drink, they show no change; and look at your donkey! And thus We have made of you a sign for the people. Look at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh”. When this was clearly shown to him, he said, “I know (now) that Allah is Able to do all things.”” 2:259

-Dead man brought back to life after 100 years and shown bones being brought together and being clothed with flesh.

“And (remember) when Ibrahim said, “My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead.” He (Allah) said: “Do you not believe?” He [Ibrahim] said: “Yes (I believe), but to be stronger in Faith.” He said: “Take four birds, then cause them to incline towards you (then slaughter them, cut them into pieces), and then put a portion of them on every hill, and call them, they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.”” 2:260

-Dead birds brought back to life.

“And will make him [Isa] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.” 3:49

-Clay bird brought to life.

All of the above are examples of miraculous phenomena which happened in moments. Some maybe a second or few seconds and some maybe minutes.

38

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 21, 2016, 03:27:16 AM »

It depends on what you mean by reliable evidence? I can cite you ample scientific evidence which supports the earth being billions of years old, as well as evidence to support the big bang theory, the existence of dinosaurs,etc.

Yes, please cite the scientific evidence.

39

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 21, 2016, 03:25:15 AM »

Am not sure what part of that statement I made confused you. Common ancestry does not, as alluded to earlier, suggest that we, as humans, evolved from monkeys. It simply means what it sounds like - i.e we and monkeys share a common ancestor. Majority of the worlds scientists agree that we evolved from an ancestor that lived some 29-28 million years ago and diverged into two lineages. One of those lineages evolved to become what is known as 'Old World monkeys', the other evolved to become us.

This common ancestor - what do you/science think it looked like? My understanding is that it closely resembled the apes we have today both in physical features and intelligence. God in the Quran says he created "Man" and not something which resembles man.

40

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 20, 2016, 07:19:06 AM »

As evident by the above verses, God exists outside time and space; therefore time is meaningless. I don't wish to regurgitate the same arguments Joseph Islam already laid out in one of his articles pertaining to this subject, so I kindly advice to read it then, afterwards, share with me your disputation.

God created the heavens and the earth in six days. The seventh day I believe he "rested" - as stated in the Bible. The six days plus one for "rest" making seven is something we humans are familiar with. I think if God had meant that each day was thousands of years then He would have clarified it by saying that each day was thousands of years as He did in those other verses.

41

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 20, 2016, 07:09:33 AM »

Evolution is not far fetched either and I do request that you read the articles by Joseph to get a better understanding of the nuances in the words.

I'm sorry but Theory of Evolution is a far fetched idea. There is absolutely no evidence of it. Take one of the first steps of the Theory of Evolution where single celled organisms  evolve into multi-celled organisms. This cannot be reproduce in the lab. They've been trying for ages, it just doesn't happen.

When you observe the real world there are in fact barriers to Theory of Evolution as in animals just aren't able to reproduce with one another.   

42

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 20, 2016, 07:01:32 AM »

Lastly, your usage of 33:59 as 'evidence' of Adams (and therefore Human-beings) extant creation is, in my opinion, inaccurate. Nether that verse (and others like it which use the term be and it issuggest/s that Adam (or Prophet Jesus) were created in an instant. Bear in mind that Prophet Jesus had to undergo a gestation period in his mother's (Mary) womb. Clearly this is not an instant. Similarly, humans, too, had to evolve in their physiological state (bashar) before God's Divine energy (ruh) could be breathed into them and before they became 'insaan'. (as in the case of Adam).

I fully concur. I am not making the argument that we, as humans, descended from monkeys; nor is that what is meant by the term 'common ancestry. Common ancestry simply means that both humans and monkeys share a 'common ancestor'. This is different from the proposition that man has evolved from monkeys.

Sorry but I'm rather confused here. You're saying that "Common ancestry simply means that both humans and monkeys share a 'common ancestor'" yet that does not mean we humans descended from monkeys. The term "monkey" simply refers to a group of animals which share  certain traits. Now depending on which science book/video you take a look at and what the current "scientific evidence" is at the time humans could indeed have evolved from an animal from the monkey group. As of now I think the popular assumption is that it was some form of primate - but as you know with science that assumption could change in an instant.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether it was a primate or a monkey popular science is saying humans evolved from a less intelligent and quite a different looking animal. The question is how and why do you as a believer accept that? Are you swayed by the so called scientific evidence? If so please let me know what the evidence is as I certainly haven't seen any.

Even if you accept that Jesus spent 9 months in gestation that is still quick compared to millions of years. The fact that we spend around 9 months in gestation is in itself a miracle but because people have become accustomed to observing/knowing about births happening all the time it's absolutely natural and not something which should be regarded as a miracle. For me this is just as miraculous as Moses parting the sea if not a "bigger miracle"

We mustn't forget that something must have fertilized the egg in Mary's womb. I think you would find it hard to accept that whatever it was could have taken days or months. I'm of the opinion that it was in an instant. And then the Quran states that Jesus spoke as a baby. Also in other verses of the Quran it says God brings the dead back to life in moments or cures those who are ill/blind instantly. When you take all of these things together then it's very difficult to accept that the Quran supports Theory of Evolution.

43

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 19, 2016, 03:30:46 AM »

With regards to the theory of evolution the following article, in my opinion, makes a good argument for it from a Quran perspective:

THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

With that said, I would like to ask why you (and hicham9) insist on throwing-out the window ever (science related) issue which the Quran either fails to speak on (or is silent on)? Bear in mind that the Quran, though it imparts creative signs of God from human creativity to cosmic space (etc), is not a science book; the Quran was not meant to touch on every issue under the sun. The purpose of the Quran, I believe, is to provide us spiritual guidance.

I can't speak for hicham9 but I myself believe the Quran clearly explains that God created life and all the variety of it  miraculously. It may not have happened instantly but I believe it took days as in 24h days to do it. Many believers will accept that God can do anything and if He wanted to he could have done it instantly or over a number 24h days. But I think some of those believers are hesitant to believe in it as they feel overwhelmed by the so called "scientific evidence". They're overwhelmed because they don't really understand Evolution/Theory of Evolution and what DNA/Fossil evidence is actually evidence of.

The Quran clearly describes the creation of Adam and makes absolutely no mention of it taking many years or of him gradually "evolving". Adam is created and then he is presented before the angels. The Quran also says that the similitude of Jesus is that of Adam.

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. - 3:59 Yusufali"

From the above verse no one can deny that Jesus was created pretty much instantly - this is very clear from the above verse. So while I agree with Joseph Islam on a lot of things I can't agree with his understanding on this area.

The vast majority of believers who accept that humans evolved from a common ancestor confuse Evolution with Common Ancestry. They are 2 different areas. Evolution is a fact. We can observe it happen. Common Ancestry has never been observed and in fact observations show that there are barriers to it.

When it comes to science you need to be precise and clear what you observing, how you are measuring, what the parameters are, what your methods are, etc. That's proper science. So when it comes to understanding Evolution you need to have a definition of evolution and if your observations fit the definition and it's repeatable then you can say it's a scientific fact. Hence Evolution is a fact but Common Ancestry is assumption and very weak one at that.

44

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

« on: January 18, 2016, 07:02:02 AM »

I was just reading Quran to see, what it talks about water ?

And I came to know, Water was Created before Big Bang (11:7)

In fact, Water is the first Product after Pen (the program and documentation of creation plan)

And I analyzed form other verses, Allah SWT is so supreme energy, temper and Power that Nothing can exist in his direct presence.

So Allah SWT first created Water, as a filter, barrier  and a shield from himself, that Big Bang can take place in a stable atmosphere and temperature. (11:7)

Low temperature and low energy state, than that of Allah's world and Throne.

And the Products of Big Bang was Stars made of exploding elements and planets made of Lava and sterile rocks,
But, they was at different temperatures as sun and earth (lava n Rocks).

And at the temperature of Big Bang, water cannot be produced or stable.
And that temperature produces just sterile lava, burning and exploding elements and rocks.(41:39)

And among His Signs in this: you see the earth barren and desolate; (2.5 Billion years ago)
but when We send down rain to it,(450 million years ago as icy Meteorites and asteroids)
it is stirred to life (single cell and multi-cell life 400 million year ago) and yields increase (multi cellular, bisexual live, 100 million years ago).
Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth, can surely give life, to (men) who are dead.
For He has power over all things. (41:39)
 
Then, water was added forcefully, to bring down temperature and produce organic molecules and life.
And form this organic molecules, The Microbes, The animal and The plant life was produced.(2:27- 29:20)

Then form the death and decay of this Microbes, Animals and Plants, "Teen, Slsaal, Hama, Labiz" or decaying stinking earth was made, and form this earth Adam AS was made.15:26 -23:12 - 2:29

This Gives room to Theory of Evolution and Existence of Dinosaurs world, as Preparation measures for "Teen, Slsaal, Hama, Labiz" and then Placing of Adam AS on perfected Earth.(2:29)

And the Theory of evolution and Dinosaurs World was exterminated after they perform their purpose. 

And where ever Quran talks about water and rain, it is not the water cycle or clouds and rain, But water form shield of Universe, from Barrier of Allah SWT, as Icy meteorites and asteroids showers and bombardments on just planet earth.

This is my Analysis and Allah knows the Best

Quran doesn't support Big Bang Theory or Theory of Evolution. The water and earth (without form) were present before God created the heavens and earth. There is no reliable evidence to say that the earth is billions of years old. Best to wait until there is credible evidence - same goes for Theory of Evolution.

Go to any place where it is barren and desolate today and you will observe life springing into being after rainfall. I accept some will say that the land contains seed but technically seeds are dead. It is God who makes them split and grow. This is a miracle that can be observed clearly again and again. It's not a natural phenomena.

45

General Discussions / Re: Verse 39:55 Issues

« on: January 12, 2016, 08:35:27 AM »

So it's just saying to follow God's commandments correctly?

God's revelation includes the Quran, Bible, etc., but the Bible and other books have been corrupted. So it's possible that this verse is telling us to follow only the Quran?

...

I wouldn't say "follow God's commandments correctly" but more of "follow Gods guidance and aim to do the best rather than just the minimum". My thoughts are that the verse is addressing the pagans in the Meccan region as the Prophet Mohammed was sent to them. If the pagans had not accepted the Quran and obeyed the messenger then they would have been destroyed just as the people of Aad and Thamud. Lucky for them I think most believed. Some of those that did not believe or some of the hypocrites that did not believe as they should have were condemned to hell. This for me means that when God is sending a revelation you better believe, it's extremely serious. I personally believe that when nations have gone astray God is more lenient as they are usually blindly following their fore fathers and have become oblivious to rational reasoning and common sense. Which is why God says in the Quran that had he punished the Quraish without sending them a messenger they would have asked God why he did so without sending one down to guide them. Yet when God does send Mohammed as a messenger they did just as the other nations did and mock and ridicule him.

It's ironic that even though the Quran describes the above clearly the vast majority of Muslims are doing the same today. They blindly follow traditions started by their fore fathers or things which they desire which are not in the Quran. Yet they claim to follow the Quran and they revere it so much. So when the Day of Judgement arrives I believe it's going to be especially hard for the Muslims because the Quran is clear, it's very well known and there is no thought of it being corrupt. So what excuse can us "Muslims" give?

When it comes to the other books we first need to split the Bible into the Gospel of Jesus and the Torah. These 2 books which God refers to in the Quran,  God never says they have been corrupted. I think God says that the People of the Book change the words from their right places which I think means misquote from the book to use it for their own needs. God in the Quran tells the Jews to judge by their book so I doubt God would tell them to judge using a corrupted book. The Gospel of Jesus which I believe are the words of Jesus contained in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John seem fine to me. Jesus never says he is God or to worship him. But if you read the other canons of the Bible then you'll not find quotes from Jesus just the authors opinions. Some of the words are OK but some seem dubious such as those of Saul.