Messages

Salaam,

Thank you for all good answers. You did your part, defending the ritual prayer, and for now I've nothing important to say. Now I need time to study from different perspectives and make a decision for myself. And I hope I didn't hurt you in some way.

Best regards,
Haji

Salaam Ismail,

I'm not upset but rather happy to see others defend the ritual prayer. I've prayed many years and to my experience it wasn't that bad.
Yes, making those statements bold were unnecessery. My bad. But I would appreciate some sources pointing out that he prayed.

Regards,
Haji

Salaam Saba,

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, that was ugly. Perhaps now I will stop posting at ourbeacon. That was my second post and I didn't expect that.

Regards,
Haji

[So did Parwez really pray? Could you give me sources (I mean books, websites etc) where it states that he prayed?]

Salaam,

Ablution may not be making sense for 5 daily prayers, but it certainly does make sense for ritual prayer.

He-he. Yes it does, in a psychological sense for congregations, but not if you are already clean and pray at home alone. Visited toilet, wash yourself for next prayer and again: visited toilet, wash yourself for next prayer. Not sure how does it work. Another problem is that in cold countries, like Sweden, your skin would crack and bleed because of too much water contact. My African Muslim friends use cream to prevent that. How awful is that. In addition, it is so cloudy here in Sweden that it makes hard to determine prayer times without "prayer calender". If you would go even further in Northern direction, there would be perhaps no sunlight at all during a day. But what about following Meckan times instead? Sorry, the internet is down.

Dear Optimist, I liked your comments in your last post. It sounded lika a talk about culture and habits and its effects. Yes, alike children play the best. But it isn't a universal and permament thing. What actually unites people is not culture or rituals but permament values. Good cultures are made of them, that is why they survive. There are different people and cultures, but permament values are one. Otherwise we would have to pray eternally in Paradise to keep humanity united. Do we really need such strange and unclear rituals while we could just follow God's commands? To follow God's commands would teach us to be responsible for our actions and it also would give us the real freedom in our lives. Freedom to prosper and achieve our dreams. The ritual prayer, in my opinion, makes you helpless in God's eyes, hoping to get salvation somehow without knowledge. Look at the World, do others who don't pray do live a terrible life? I don't think so.

What do you think about these comparisons?

"Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and [in particular] the middle prayer and stand before Allah ,
devoutly obedient. And if you fear [an enemy, then pray] on foot or riding. But when you are secure, then remember Allah [in prayer], as He has taught you that which you did not [previously] know." (2:238-239, Sahih International)

"You should fulfil the responsibilities which have been prescribed above. However, this is not all. There are other
responsibilities which are more crucial to the Niz'am-us-Sal'at. These responsibilities should be fulfilled according to
circumstances prevailing during the state of danger or peace. Allah [*5] has given you this Guidance – which you did not
have before." (for 2:238-239, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

And these:

"Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do." (29:45, Yusuf Ali)

"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world.  Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!)  Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others.  And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

And there are probalby more.

So did Parwez really pray? Could you give me sources (I mean books, websites etc) where it states that he prayed? You talk much about Parwez, so I got intrested to read about him and his books and seek there for inspiration. For now I can't allow myself to believe in ritual prayer because it doesn't seem to be true. I hope you understand me.

Source of Parwez work:
http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm

Regards,
Haji

Salam Sardar Miyan.

Why not? Did the original Quran have ayats or were they invented? Anyway lets look at the verses:

"Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and [in particular] the middle prayer and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.
And if you fear [an enemy, then pray] on foot or riding. But when you are secure, then remember Allah [in prayer], as He has taught you that which you did not [previously] know." (2:238-239, Sahih International)
Look at the brackets. Maybe they are not the words of the original Quran.

This might sound better:
"Guard your duties pertaining to the family life (221-237) and the central duty of remaining vigilant in obeying Divine commands.
Whether fear threatens you from without, or you are strolling, riding, relaxing in peace, remember God as He has taught you (the right and wrong) what you did not know" (2:238-239, Dr Shabbir Ahmed).

P.S.
Please stop talking bad things about him. Is it beacuse he have opinions which you don't agree with? We don't have to trust him, but we can be inspired.

Salam.

Do anybody know something about Michael?

"Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith." (2:98, Yusuf Ali)

See this article:
"http://quransmessage.com/articles/gabriel%20FM3.htm"
Joseph Islam claims that Gabriel isn't an angel, but it rather could be a spirit. Yes, it could be something different rather than an angel because angels are already mentioned in that verse.
The problem is that there is nowhere in Quran mentioned anything about Michael except 2:98.

I've already posted the same question in ourbeacon.com and I've already got some answers:
"http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119196642"
Visit it if you wish.

Regrds,
Haji

Salam.

Look at verses before and after 2:238. Prayer doesn't seem to fit into context. The verse should be associated with family, marriage and the commands of God.

Regards,
Haji

[First step: the Quran doesn't seem to prescribe it;]

Why I think the ritual prayer is wrong? Let me explain you in three steps:

First step: the Quran doesn't seem to prescribe it;
When I read some verses about prayer in the Quran, it seems like they don't talk about the ritual prayer. Here are some examples:

"Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction,-" (19:58-59, Yusuf Ali)

Will people who don't pray get destroyed? That doesn't sound right. Here, the more correct intrepretation would be to say that those who abondened the laws of God would hurt themselves.

"Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do." (29:45, Yusuf Ali)

Here, God commands to recite His commands for people and follow them in order to protect people of making mistakes. Remebrance of God must be the remebrance of what he said us to do. Just remebering God will do not much. If the ritual prayer is true and if it is neccesery for protecting us of commiting sins, then how can you explain that people who don't pray also commit no sins? Otherwise we would have to pray eternally to be protected of commiting sins. Yes, even in the afterlife.

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." (48:29, Yusuf Ali)

Marks on the face? Oh my God. But seriously, it must be about actions not the ritual prayer. In addition, it is intresting to see Taurat and Gospel mentioned.

The ablution:
I had discussed about it here in a thread called "The real purpose of ablution". My conclusion was that ablution makes no sense for five daily prayers. I couldn't get pure understanding about it's purpose and therefore it is better to not follow it.

Second step: the logic of the ritual prayer;
Many questions needs to be answered. Does God need our prayers or do we pray for ourselves? How does the ritual prayer work? Will ones prayer cancel the others if he wish the same object? Does God change His laws?
Actually, God doesn't change His laws:

"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity." (10:64, Yusuf Ali).
"(This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways." (17:77, Yusuf Ali)
Remember...
"And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning)." (17:36, Yusuf Ali). Believe is nothing without knowledge.

Third step: it doesn't fit into my life;
I live in Sweden. In winters, it gets cold and nights are longer. This is how prayer scheme looks in northern part of Sweden in december month:
Fadjr: 07:16; Shuruk: 09:37; Zuhr: 11:37; Assr: 11:54; Magreb: 13:35; Isha 15:46. It is a rush. Sometimes I got nervous thinking that if I would miss the prayers, it would be counted as a sin. Furthermore, because of washing during winter time, my skin dried out, cracked and bleeded. But now, thank God, I'm free. I stopped believing and my life got much better. I don't believe in devil, angels, soul, magic and such. Quran contains many metaphors, but not all of them are recognized. Sadly, people took them literally. Why did God use metaphors? I think because you can't exactly describe what e.g. Paradise and Hell is.
Muslims put believe over understanding. That is what problem is with todays Muslims. Maybe because of this Muslim countries don't make good progress. Religion is a plague in our lives and society.

"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy." (4:82, Yusuf Ali)

Salam. I'm happy to see you here. A "Christian Tauhid", you are much welcomed. Good luck with your studies.

Salam.

Sardar Miyan:
"Dear Haji, Do not quote Dr Shabbir who is disciple of Gulam Ahmed Perwaiz as these two are against Salath. Gulam Ahamed himself used to pray & Dr Shabbir also admit that prayers is small part of Salath. He has audacity to go far by telling that Thaawatur of Salat coming right from the time of prophet is not true. As Truth Seeker mentioned Dr Shabbir does not believe in Saum & Hajj. Why don't you go through the Articles & Face Book blogs of Bro Joseph Islam to get enlightened?Thanks for sharing."

Just because others have opinions which are not conventionally accepted doesn't mean that we should dislike them. It is better to look at the both sides rather than choosing the one by your own valuations. As you can see there are cons and pros for supporting the ritual prayer. Therefore we have to find the best meaning by judging from the both sides.

"Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." (39:18, Yusuf Ali)

If you follow the best meaning, then you are guided and have understanding. You are guided by God by obeying his commands.

I have read many of Joseph Islams articles. He gives good explanations to support the ritual prayer. But he also pointed out a problem:
"http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm". It states that the word "Sujud" have different meanings.  One example is:

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." (48:29, Yusuf Ali)

"On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration". Does it really sound right? In addition, read carefully what it states after it. Does the statements fit into the context?

The problem is: the more indications we find contradicting the ritual prayer, the more problematic the situation becomes. I think we have to see the whole picture in order to extract the best meaning. I highly recommend you to visit those both links I posted and read the texts.

Sardar Miyan:
"Bro Haji Who told you that dwellers of Paradise would keep praying? When Paradise is achieved why would a person pray there ? When once a person is declared passed in an examination why would he prepare for examination ?"
See this:
"Lo! those who believe and do good works, their Lord guideth them by their faith. Rivers will flow beneath them in the Gardens of Delight,
Their prayer therein will be: Glory be to Thee, O Allah! and their greeting therein will be: Peace. And the conclusion of their prayer will be: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!" (10:9-10, Pickthall). But others translate "prayer" as "call"/"cry". Then this is not exactly a ritual prayer.

Ismail, thank you for pointing that out.

Timings?
"Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting." (50:39, Yusuf Ali)
"Bear, then, with patience, all that they say". This sounds like someone tries to make a change but others oppose that. It doesn't look like that they are trying to mock the one who prays. In addition "before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting" sounds more like we should act according to something all the way and not part of it.

Here is another explanations for the same verse:
"So, bear with patience whatever they say. And strive to establish the
glory and praise of your Sustainer, from before sunrise to before sunset.
[Sabbih bihamd is usually translated as the ritualistic, 'praise the Sustainer',
'celebrate His praise', 'hymn His praises'. But Sabbih means 'strive hard', and
it has nothing to do with Tasbeeh of rosary beads]"
(50:39, Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])

Verse 11:114;
"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):" (Yusuf Ali)
"For those things, that are good remove those that are evil" does prayer remove evil? By uttering some words? Only at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night?

This might be better explanation:
"Strive to establish and consolidate the Divine System, day and night.
Actions that create balance in the society remove the ill effects of inequities.
Good deeds remove bad deeds. This is a reminder for those who pay
attention." (Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])

"Times" doesn't seem to be associated with the ritual prayer.

Does this sound right?
"Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And Allah knows well all that they do." (24:41, Yusuf Ali)

This might sound better:
"Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
[All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way]" (Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])

What about mosques? According to QXPv (2012)  by Shabbir Ahmed the word "masjid" (mosque) could mean "community centers" or "centers of administering the divine system". And that is not a place for rituals.

If we would keep praying even in the paradise, then what would we pray for? To be saved from the hell? Eternally with same timings? In the mosques? I think God wants us to obey Him (follow his laws); not to worship Him. God's guidence should mean to follow the Quran.

Peace be upon you.

Do people not wonder if the ritualistic prayer actually works? Isn't it our actions which can get us the results? Maybe we have missunderstood the Quran.  Please see this:
"http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119194643".

He explains the logic behind prayer and gives examples from the Quran against the ritualistic prayer. And he states: "to observe God's laws is to call out to Him or pray to Him and to get good results means our prayers have been answered".

Here is intresting document against ritualistic prayer:
"http://www.scribd.com/doc/180909912/Salat-debunked-by-the-Tawrah-and-the-Qur%E2%80%99an".

What's your opinion? Do you agree or disagree?

Regards,
Haji

No I'm not trying to draw your attention, nor I'm trying to support him. I just wanted to finish this thread by pointing it out and it's always better to look at latest version. Thanks for your opinions. I didn't knew that you already had critisized him.
Revising of the book is intresting for me too and this is the fifth book, ca 10 years after the first edition. Sounds not so serious to me.

Just want to note that there is now a fifth edition of the book:
http://drshabbir.com/pages/Free-Library.html

Check it out if you wish.

Salam Ismail.

I've searched for answers in many places over the internet. I've looked for answers for the same matter in other religions too, such as Christianity and Judaism. None of them made any sense to me but that one I mentioned. I understand you, no one wants to stray off of the right path. But the truth is that it doesn't make much sense if you don't understanding of what you are doing and have the feeling in your heart of making a mistake. I would happy to see if someone could point out a better alternative, but sadly I haven't seen one yet.

Regards,
Haji