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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Belief in entire Quran in totality
« on: April 30, 2014, 07:39:30 PM »
Salam All, I wanted to know if a Muslim believes in Quran in parts which I mean to say not in totality can be called Muslim? Allah's book is to be believed from A to Z ie, (114 Surahs )from Alf Lam Meem to Minal jinnati Wannas. In case someone dose not believe all can he be a Muslim ? Rashad Khlifa & his followers do not have the Two Ayaat 9:128 & 9:129 which were deleted from their Scripture. Can these people be called as Muslims ? I need clarification please. Thanks
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Offline good logic

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2014, 08:52:34 PM »
Peace Sardar.

The Qoran given to the prophet was in one form ,which means all the various transmissions only represent the different readers and do not necessarily represent the Qoran revealed to prophet Muhammed and preserved in Master Tablets at God Almighty.


[Qoran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Qoran. In a preserved master tablet.

The predominant reading today, spread by Egyptian Qoran readers, is that of Asim in the transmission of Hafs (d. 190/805). In Morocco, the reading is that of Nafi` in the transmission of Warsh (d. 197/812) and the Moroccan Qorans are written accordingly. In Sudan, Nigeria and Central Africa, the prevailing reading is that of Abu `Amr in the version of al-Duri. The transmissions of Hafs, Warsh, Qalun and Al-Duri are still in print today.

A question that should be asked  before your question can be answered is:

What is the Qoran that was given to the prophet? Did it contain 9(128-129).?

Then you can proceed to ask: Did the prophet write the verses as they came to him? 

The following table is meant to educate the Muslims and show them how the Hafs Mus-haf differs from the Warsh Mus-haf and it is a proof that human errors were allowed in the writing and collection of the Quran while preserving the right version (in this case Hafs) that will be supported and confirmed by God's Mathematical Miracle of the Quran. These are only some examples.

The writing of the Quran according to Hafs
 The writing of the Quran according to Warsh
 

surah 5:54 (yartadda)
surah 5:54 (yartadid)

surah 91:15 (wa la yakhaafu)
surah 91:15 (fa la yakhaafu)

surah 3:133 (wasaari'uu)
surah 3:133 (saari'uu)

surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
surah 2:132 (wa'awsaa)

surah 2:140 (taquluna)
surah 2:140 (yaquluna)

surah 2:259 (nunshizuhaa)
surah 2:259 (nunshiruhaa)

surah 3:81 (ataytukum)
surah 3:81 (ataynakum)

surah 2:132 (himu)
surah 2:132 (hiimu)

surah 2:214 (yaquula)
surah 2:214 (yaquulu)


We agree with the scholarly understanding that none of the differences, whether vocal (vowel and diacritical points) or graphic (basic letter), between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. However, the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran supports ONLY one version, the Hafs transmission which is the most commonly used version of transmission. The Rasm (Orthography) of Hafs follows the pattern of the mathematical structure of the Qoran as well as the numbering of the suras and verses. In reality it shows how the Mathematical miracle of the Qoran is working to confirm the preserved Qoran as promised by God. The original version that came to the prophet is mathematically preserved?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

 

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 09:12:40 PM »
I don't know what you want to tell but surely you are inclined towards Code 19 which is not authentic  & acceptable. Don't tell us unnecessary things here but what I want to in short if the Quran is not believed in total is that person is a Muslim? That all I want to know. Please don't drag the subject away.
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Offline Deliverance

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 10:01:38 PM »
I think at the end of Sura 2 you find the answer where you find what a mumin has to belive in and one of them are "The Books"if you don´t belive one part of one Book look it up in the other Books and you find the answer.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 11:45:40 PM »
I am telling only about Holy Book Quran & each Muslim has to believe it in total & not in one part leave another part. I am telling about 19ers not believing in Ayaat 9:128 and 9:129 which makes a person out of Islam
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Offline Deliverance

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 09:46:36 AM »
I don´t want to judge about others but what about the Malikis who dont consider the basmala as part of the Quran,are they out of Islam?
And what makes a Person out of Islam,there are People who never read the Quran and are very open and friendly to the other.And there is the opposit People who are reading the quran but do mischief around them.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2014, 12:13:51 PM »
Dear All,

As-salam alaykum

Only God knows best as to who is out of Islam or not. The purpose of scripture is to part with fundamental guidance with regards beliefs and practices in matters of religion. One could argue that if that is done, the purpose of Scripture is complete. There are those that believe in the entire Quran, yet interpret the Quran in such a manner that they do not believe in prayer, fasting and other core religious requirements. Are they better than those that do believe in prayer and fasting but do not believe that certain verses of the Quran were revealed? There are others that believe in the entire Quran, yet interpret it wholly through the lens of Islamic secondary sources. Are they any better?

However, what does sadden me is that there are those that align themselves to this belief of the ‘mathematical miracle’ and call themselves ‘submitters’ or ‘19ers’ consider individuals like me, even though I am Quran-centric, as transgressors and the ‘regressed ones’.

This is unacceptable.

This is no different from other fundamentalist views that assert 'either my way or else'. The problem is in the manner they interpret verse 74:31 and others which leaves them in a precarious position. Either they are the transgressors (regressed souls) or others that do not believe in the 'mathematical miracle - 19' are the transgressors and thus the 'regressed ones'.

Of course, no 'submitter' or '19er' is going to accept that they have got the interpretation wrong, so the next logical step is to blame all others of transgression (or regressed souls) even though others may be completely committed to the Quran.

Please see below an unexpected email I received from Edip Yuksel which exemplifies this point. It is noteworthy that there were no prior discussions on this topic before this email.

Quote
From: edipyuksel@gmail.com [mailto:edipyuksel@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Edip Yuksel
Sent: 09 December 2012 08:01
To: Joseph A. Islam
Subject: Re: Quran's Message

Dear Joseph:

As it seems, you have not witnessed the great sign and prophecy, which turns you into the "regressed ones" according to 74:37.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

I have refuted this argument in a few articles and in my recent book, Running Like Zebras.

Peace,
Edip

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/200900743380394

Brother Edip Yuksel has in the past spoken very favourably about the contents of my website and thoughts in general and even retained the link to Quransmessage.com from the front page of his website 19.org. However, it appears that when he found out about my stance on the issue of ‘19’, I understand that he removed any reference of my site after sending me the email above.

In the end, I understand we conflict strongly over this issue and I can only kindly appeal to him and others that follow his views not to allow our strong difference of academic opinion on this issue to cloud the good works that we all 'intend' to do for the wider benefit of humankind and ultimately for the sake of God.

Kind regards,
Joseph

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline good logic

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2014, 06:47:49 PM »
Greetings brothers and sisters.

Just to clarify my position.   I AM A BELIEVER. Plain and simple, I do not belong to any sect or religion. I belong to GOD ALONE!
I thought there is only one truth.If the truth offends people, then,it cannot be changed.

Noah was asked by some of his people- How can we follow you when you are attracting the" Ardhaleen". He said:"How can I possibly know what they do. God is the one who judges them if you only knew" . " I  AM NOT GOING TO SEND AWAY THE BELIEVERS".

Qoran Alone does not each division.

 I believe in the verses that came down to the prophet.

I now have proof of which verses they were.

For me it is simple, I cannot ignore a third of Qoran.

Shall I follow people s reasoning?On what authority? Only if they Bring me back up from God s word( Bayinah that they are the one to follow).
I follow the authority of God Alone through his messengers all of them including the latest one.That means I follow God s word. To be precise I now follow the " Proven word of God.".

Idol worship is not to accept God s authority.
Following anyone else without authenticity is idol worship despite what some  think.

This will sum it up for me:

"Recall that I inspired the disciples: `You shall believe in Me and My messenger.' They said, `We have believed, and bear witness that we are Muslimeen.' "
وَإِذ أَوحَيتُ إِلَى الحَوارِيّـۧنَ أَن ءامِنوا بى وَبِرَسولى قالوا ءامَنّا وَاشهَد بِأَنَّنا مُسلِمونَ

I am not asking people to join any congregation or follow me. I am asking as per [17:36]

Each individual is only responsible for their own self.

God is very precise .His words are deliberate and accurate.. His design is perfect. He has left His signature across His creation,his scriptures and us Humans.

GOD's creation is flawless
"He created seven universes in layers.
You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious.
Keep looking; do you see any flaw?
Look again and again;
Your eyes will come back stumped and conquered."
Qoran 67:2-3

.  .

It should be easy for those sincere at heart to appreciate GOD's signs. GOD's signs are everywhere, but is it conceivable perhaps that GOD has left His signature over the creation, a signature so that we humans recognize it one day?  If the answer to this question is "Yes" or "May be," then, we can take this question to the next level. If GOD wanted to leave a signature over His creation, what language would He pick?  Obviously GOD wouldn't discriminate. GOD is our GOD, He wouldn't pick a language to favor a group of people and disadvantage the rest. What language then?   Is it fair to say that mathematics is the only true universal language?  Mathematics is the language of science. It is the language of objectivity, it does not have room for personal opinion, and it does not need interpretation.

If GOD has left His mathematical signature over the creation, then, how is it written?   In English we pick the letters G, O, and D. We group them together and we have the word "GOD." In Arabic we pick the letters Alif (A), Laam (L), Laam (L), and Ha (H). We group them together and we have the word "ALLAH." Now, what about mathematics? In mathematics, the main characters are 1 through 9. Zero is not a number on its own. Independently, it has no value. Looking at the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, what number or a group of numbers would best describe GOD? GOD is the Beginning and the End. GOD is the First and the Last, He is the Alpha and the Omega. Wouldn't 1 and 9, together 19, describe GOD in the best way?   Is it possible that Almighty GOD has picked number 19 as His mathematical signature over His creation? 

Let us look at our own hand. Do you know how many pieces of bones we have in our hand? If you guessed 19, that is a good one. We have 4 fingers; 3 pieces each. This gives us 12. The thumb has 2 pieces and the palm of our hand has 5. Therefore, the total number of bones in our hand is 19.

The Qoran carries GOD's mathematical signature, 19 is the Qoran's initials common denominator.
   
This is GOD's deliberate design; He has placed His signature in our hand, the instrument with which we sign documents. The number of bones in our hand is 19. In mathematics, 1 and 9 are like A and Z in English. They signify "The First and The Last," "The Alpha and Omega." Zero independently has no value. To make sure that we don't think this might be a coincidence, next to our hand, GOD has placed 8 bones in our wrist. 19 is the 8th prime number, (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, and 19). Prime numbers are only divisible by themselves and number 1. The light from the Sun reaches our planet in 499 seconds. This is a scientific average for the distance between the Sun and Earth changes, and 499 seconds is 8 minutes and 19 seconds. The first verse in the Qoran is comprised of 19 Arabic letters. This same exact verse is placed at the top of the first 8 suras (chapters). Sura 9 does not have the opening statement. This is the design of the Almighty. Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe!

God also deliberately waited until 1974 to unveil this sign, waited when Science and mathematics were advanced and ready to check His signature in the last scripture.

Those who also claim what is the big deal about 19? They have that choice also.
However 19 is not going to go away. The more advance in Science and mathematics the humans go through, the more God will keep showing more signs.

 I am certain God has placed every letter ,word, sentence  and suras of Qoran exactly and deliberately. He counted the numbers of everything.  Example:

Sura 98( Al-bayinah- The proof) has 8 verses. These verses are comprised of 94 Arabic words, 397 Arabic letters. Glory is to GOD; by adding the above numbers, we get:

98 + 8 + 94 + 397 = 589
19 x 31

9 + 8 + 8 + 9 + 4 + 3 + 9 + 7 = 57 , (19 x 3)

74:31 is the verse in the  Qoran that points at the functions of number 19.
Glory is to GOD; 74:31 is comprised of 57 Arabic words, (19 x 3)!

Others say it is a coincidence.

Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe.

God bless .
Peace.

Offline Saba

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 06:57:29 PM »
Salaam Goodlogic ..

My opinion ...picking and choosing and manipulating data does not amount to a mathematical miracle. Lets not get into this again pls. This subject is debated to death. Just check the free-minds forum which you are a part of ...

Bro Sardar, I still cannot work out why you choose to put out such controversial posts on this forum when you know people are not going to agree and the issue has been argued to death!??? Do you think that a 19 code believer is going to change their views so easily despite the evidence???? So why do you do it??? I say let people believe what they want to believe and try to find interesting topics to talk about the Qur'an!!! .. Thanx Saba

Offline good logic

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2014, 07:48:07 PM »
Greetings Saba.

Thank you for your advice. I do not debate anyone, if you noticed. I believe GOD gave each individual the "freedom to choose".

Each one can only say/put their views. others make up their own minds and check...

My aim in this topic is not to discuss any code but to ask what is "all Qoran"?

Can we say some verses are abrogated or abrogate other verses? Is that believing in "all of it"?

Can we ignore other verses because we do not understand them/or do not accept the meanings? For example [46;10], [54:1] [54:2]...? is that believing in "all of it"?

And so on...

May the Lord guide us to His true path.

GOD bless you.
Peace.





Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 08:20:44 PM »
Salam Sister Saba,I am not going to discuss Code 19 which is already over in this Forum by Bro Joseph but what I wanted to stress is a muslim has to believe entire Quran.He can not choose one & leave another.In my view such person is not a muslim.Allah has already written and kept under His safety as such there is no need to show any other method of Quran being safe.It is an utter disbelief & Blaphamy that the two Ayaat of Surah Tawwuba were removed from their Quran.Therefore I call them non muslims.
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 08:32:45 PM »
Bro Good logic,"Freedom of Choice"is not to remove Allah's words from one's Book which is Blasphemy based upon some assumption & false calculations.Quran can not be judged by humans.Sister Saba has rightly said about you
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Offline good logic

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 07:25:02 PM »
Greetings Sardar.

We need to value GOD as He should be valued.No one can remove even a letter from His word!Why?

Think brother, who is GOD?

[Qoran 57:2] To Him belongs the kingship of the heavens and the earth. He controls life and death. He is Omnipotent.
 [Qoran 57:3] He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the Outermost and the Innermost. He is fully aware of all things.

[Qoran 57:4] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days,* then assumed all authority. He knows everything that enters into the earth, and everything that comes out of it, and everything that comes down from the sky, and everything that climbs into it. He is with you wherever you may be. God is Seer of everything you do.

[Qoran 25:47] He is the One who designed the night to be a cover, and for you to sleep and rest. And He made the day a resurrection.
 [Qoran 25:48] He is the One who sends the winds with good omens of His mercy, and we send down from the sky pure water.

[Qoran 25:53] He is the One who merges the two seas; one is fresh and palatable, while the other is salty and undrinkable. And He separated them with a formidable, inviolable barrier (evaporation).

[Qoran 25:61] Most blessed is the One who placed constellations in the sky, and placed in it a lamp, and a shining moon.

sufficient proof for those who wish to take heed, or to be appreciative.

[Qoran 40:3] Forgiver of sins, acceptor of repentance, strict in enforcing retribution, and possessor of all power. There is no other god beside Him. To Him is the ultimate destiny.

[Qoran 40:15] Possessor of the highest ranks, and Ruler of the whole dominion. He sends inspiration, bearing His commands, to whomever He chooses from among His servants, to warn about the Day of Summoning.

[Qoran 53:6] Possessor of all authority. From His highest height. [Quran 40:62] Such is God your Lord, the Creator of all things. There is no god except He. How could you deviate?

[Qoran 40:64] God is the One who rendered the earth habitable for you, and the sky a formidable structure, and He designed you, and designed you well. He is the One who provides you with good provisions.* Such is God your Lord; Most Exalted is God, Lord of the universe.
 [Qoran 40:65] He is the Living; there is no god except He. You shall serve/ worship Him alone, devoting your religion absolutely to Him alone. Praise be to God, Lord of the universe.

[Qoran 40:79] God is the One who created the livestock for you; some you ride, and some you eat.

[Qoran 13:2] God is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then assumed all authority. He committed the sun and the moon, each running (in its orbit) for a predetermined period. He controls all things, and explains the revelations, that you may attain certainty about meeting your Lord.

And so on... I could go on and on ...

I would not dare oppose Him. Removing His word? I would not be able to brother. I value GOD as He should be valued.I know I am going to meet Him. I am going to be accountable to Him .

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline QM Moderators Team

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 07:42:53 PM »
Dear Good Logic,

In future, please can we kindly ask you to remain careful of forum policy 2 (i) which states:

"(i)     Please keep an appropriate, consistent font size. Posts which overtly make use of full capitals will be removed."

Your font size has been modified from 18 to 14. However, in future, can you assure that you attempt to be mindful of the above.

Thanks

Offline good logic

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Re: Belief in entire Quran in totality
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 07:51:23 PM »
Dear Moderators.

Apologies. Thanks for the reminder.

GOD bless.
Peace.