Respectful Disagreement with "Intercession and the Prophet's help" article:

[Lobotomize94]

Hello everyone! I wanted to address a strong disagreement that I have whilst reading one of brother Joseph's article titled "Intercession and the Prophet's help".

I mean no disrespect for such disagreements, if anything, this disagreement may bring to light further knowledge!

Brother Joseph stated: "No soul will benefit another on the Day of Judgement unless God wills"

I would have to say that this is entirely unsupported in the Quran.

I begin by citing 2 explicit verses that make clear that intercession will not benefit anyone!

O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. And be on your guard against a day when ONE SOUL shall not avail ANOTHER in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped. S. 2:47-48

O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. And be on your guard against a day when NO SOUL shall avail ANOTHER in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped. S. 2:122-123

In these above verses, it becomes clear that under NO circumstance that one soul can avail another in the least and under no circumstance that intercession from anyone can profit you..

But what about verses that create an exception and state that intercession will be granted only if Allah allows it?

One of the verses which the Sunni’s use to claim that Muhammad will intercede for his nation on Judgement Day is 2:255, and specifically the following words:

"Who can intercede with Him, except with His permission?" 2:255

In 2:255 God speaks about those who cannot intercede, except if He gives the permission, which in some ways suggests that God may give His permission to some to intercede.

But we are also told very clearly in numerous other verses that there will be no intercession on Judgement Day (2:48, 2:123, 2:254, 6:51, 6:70, 7:53, 26:100, 30:13, 32:4, 36:23, 39:44, 40:18, 74:48).

The Sunni’s use the words "except with His permission" to say that God would not say these words if He will never give anyone permission to intercede, so to them these words indicate that God, with His permission, will allow Muhammad to intercede for the Muslims. They go on to claim, with the support of various hadith, that Muhammad will be asked to name his wish from God, then Muhammad will ask for his “Ummah” (nation) to be saved! Various hadith in Bukhari go on to say that God will give permission to Muhammad to take out of hell many of his “Ummah” who are already in hell. One example is the hadith (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3).
The hadith followers believe these hadith and advocate their content. God in His infinite wisdom knows that these hadith will be fabricated, thus God tells us:

"As for the one who was sentenced for punishment, can you (Muhammad) save those who are in the fire?" 39:19

This awesome rhetorical question, which is worded with mockery, provides absolute evidence that Muhammad will not be taking anyone who is in the fire out!

The mere suggestion of such hadith, that God will put someone in hell then Muhammad will be allowed to take them out, indirectly implies that it was Muhammad's intercession that saved them, albeit with God's permission!

In view of all the above, what is the correct meaning of the referred to words in 2:255?
God has promised that all the answers are given in the Quran (16:89).
First, the genuine believers will accept the message of all the verses which speak of intercession as something that belongs to God alone.
The full picture about intercession will be completed with the following words:

"They (messengers) do not intercede, except for those already accepted by Him, and they (messengers) will stand in awe out of fear of Him." 21:28 (also 53:26).

These words state categorically that even the cherished messengers of God do not have any authority to intercede except to those already redeemed by God. Like everyone else, they will be too busy on Judgement Day worrying about their own necks:

Needless to say, those who are already redeemed by God would not be in need of any intercession.

Everyone in Paradise will probably intercede on behalf of his/her loved ones: "Please God, admit my mother into Paradise." If the person's mother deserves to go to Paradise she will be in Paradise, whether her loved ones interceded for her or not. Thus, intercession, though it will take place in this manner, is utterly useless.
This is confirmed in the following words:

"On that day, intercession will not benefit anyone other than the one whom the Almighty has granted permission and accepts what he has to say." 20:109

The advocates of intercession claim that 20:109 implies that Muhammad will indeed intercede for his people. This is a clear manipulation of the words of 20:109. When we read the words of this verse we realise that God is speaking about the ones who will benefit from intercession and not the ones who will intercede.

The ones who will have any benefit are in fact the ones who are already approved by God to be pardoned. Their benefit is a result of God's mercy and not a benefit of human intercession. This also confirms that even though intercession will take place, yet it can never change God’s Judgement nor benefit anyone who is not already pardoned by God.

As a result, the whole doubt regarding the words in 2:255 is totally resolved for the believers. The words "except with His permission" are given full light by means of the words "for those already accepted by Him". The two sets of Quranic words remove all doubts about this issue.

Conclusion:

Brother Joseph and I generally agree on all other matters in this topic. The one disagreement that I have is when he stated, "No soul will benefit another on the Day of Judgement unless God wills".While it is true that everything goes by God's will--God has explicitly stated that he will not will for any soul to benefit another in the least, not under any circumstances.

No soul can benefit another in the day of judgement. Intercession cannot be your profit for the day of judgement. Allah will ONLY allow others to intercede for you, ONLY if Allah already forgave you and accepted you. Thus, it becomes clear that no soul will ever benefit another on the day of judgement. If Allah decides a soul can intercede, Allah has already forgave and accepted you, the intercession of that soul will thus not benefit you--it is practically useless.

No soul will benefit another, not even in the slightest atom's weight--not under any circumstance or exception.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Labotomize94,

As-salamu alaykum

If I may respectfully say so, I am a little bewildered at your post as it appears that you may have attributed an understanding of intercession to me which I do not support myself. If anything, my final comments make it explicitly clear that:

"From the above narratives, the understanding that a 'particular person, creation or group’ has qualified / prerogative rights for intercession on the Day of Judgment (such as Prophet Muhammad,(pbuh) a saint, or a religious man) is a view unsupported from the Quranic verses.
 
All rights of intercession belong to God. The Quran makes no mention of whether intercession will indeed be granted as a rule or partially and if so, to whom other than who testifies to the truth knowingly (43:86). The Quran furnishes no specific information nor does it deem it necessary for mankind's guidance.
 
A worshipper's only true hope for salvation is to put all their hope and trust in God's own perfect justice and mercy."

As far as your disagreement with regards the statement...

"Brother Joseph stated: "No soul will benefit another on the Day of Judgement unless God wills""

With respect, as one would expect any ardent student of the Quran to appreciate, the Quran makes use of this terminology in numerous verses. (7:188; 10:49; 2:255; 10:3). This exception is not something I have invented.

However, what I feel you have overlooked is my humble explanation as to why such terminology is used.

For example with regards 2:255, I wrote:

"Note the rhetorical question “Who is there that can intercede in His presence except as He permits?” No one is mentioned. This verse is better understood in light of all the other verses of the Quran that deal with this theme of intercession. Thus, the Quran clearly rejects the popular belief of assigning prerogative 'intercession' rights to specific individuals or entities such as dead saints or prophets. It is clear from all the verses that God's omniscience requires no 'mediator' and that He remains ultimate authority to do whatever He so chooses."

With regards 10:3, I wrote:

"Who can intercede unless God permits? Note the similarity of the rhetoric with verse 2.255. After all, God makes it clear that all intercession and the right to grant it (if He so wills) is with Him.  Note that no person, group of people or species has been mentioned as possessing the power of intercession in the Quran apart from one who may bear the truth."

I also elaborate with regards a context advanced by the Quran with regards intercession limiting its scope somewhat to the testifying of truth only.

043:086
"And those to whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, except one who testifies to the Truth knowingly""

Notwithstanding as to who will testify, including both the seen, and unseen creation, it is noteworthy that in that context, even one's hands and feet will testify on the Day of Judgement (36:65)

Please may I kindly and respectfully request that if in future you are going to critique an article or understanding as a new thread, that you first kindly put my perspective to scrutiny and then once again, kindly follow the format of critique as highlighted below as this will not only aid me, but potentially, the entire readership. This information is clearly available from the forum policy available from the link on the top right of the forum page.

MY CONDITIONS OF DISCUSSION OR DEBATE - INCLUDING CRITIQUE OF MY ARTICLES OR PERSPECTIVES
http://quransmessage.com/articles/debate%20FM3.htm

For other readers interested to read my views on this matter, please see my article below:

INTERCESSION AND THE PROPHET'S HELP
http://quransmessage.com/articles/intercession%20FM3.htm

I trust this clarifies my position on this matter, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph

[erwin.ariadi]

Assalamu'alaykum,
Dear Brother Lobotomize94 and Brother Joseph,

In my humble opinion, the EXCEPTION is undoubtedly VALID.
And I believe this exception is applied only for THE ANGELS, specifically THE ANGELS WHO WILL ACCOMPANY EACH OF US ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT (50:21).

Here's my explanation :
1. The only ones who are mentioned EXPLICITLY in Quran who have the capacity to intercede are THE ANGELS (53:26)

2. 82:19 says that :
"(It will be) the Day when no soul (nafsun) shall have power (to do) aught for another (nafsin): For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) with Allah."

While in 91:7-10, we know that nafs are entities who are granted volition (i.e. humans and jinns). Again in this context, THE ANGELS are EXCLUDED.

3. Then the next question : Which angels are granted as intercessor on the day of judgement?

43:86 says that :
And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;- ONLY he who bears witness to the Truth (shahida bi l-haq), and they know (him) (wahum ya'lamun).

Please take note the similarity of :
- The word "shahida bi l-haq" in 43:86 and "shahiid" in 50:21
- The word "ya'lamun" in 43:86 and "ya'lamun" in 82:12

4. Finally, since :
- God knows exactly what is in front and behind the intercessor (2:255); and
- All the intercessions belongs to Him only (39:44); and
- ... For the command, that Day (i.e. Day of Judgement), will be (wholly) with Allah (82:19); and
- God is perfect in justice, and no one will be suffered even a single injustice from Him (3:108,3:117,3:182,4:40, 8:51, 9:70, 11:101, 16:33, 29:40);
The conclusion will be so obvious in this context, that essentially all intercessions will be "no beneficial" on the day of judgement.

Only God knows best.

Salam,