4:47 Vs 2:62

[Imran Faruqui]

Peace good logic,

When GOD says  do not practise"Shirk" , are Jews and Muslims exempt? They may be worse than the Christians!!!

Yes of course shirk applies to Muslims as well. Most Qur’an centric believers recognize that the followers of traditional Islam are perhaps best called Muhammadans, because they have effectively replaced the worship of God with the worship of Muhammad; and consequently have set-up a partner with God. Ironically, Muhammadans are Muhammad’s biggest enemy!

However, I refrained from mentioning this in order to stay true to the scope of the thread, which is specifically about the People of the Book, in context to verses 4:47 and 2:62.

With regards,

Imran

PS On another note, please recognize that this forum is in the English language; thus for the benefit of the general readership, myself included, whenever you write/reference Arabic, please also include the English translation.

[good logic]

Peace Imran.

Thank you for your comments.

Please forgive me for not giving the verse numbers at least in my "reply 9", here are the verses in the order written in that post:

4:48
25:17-18-19.

I prefer if brothers and sisters use their own preferred translation,unless you really want me to give you the translation I use,then just let me know.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Imran Faruqui]

No worries good logic, and thanks for your kind response.

Imran

[Hamzeh]

May peace be with you Br. Imran Faruqui

You mentioned:

While you are correct that once the People of the Book accept the Qur’an’s authenticity they should subsequently not reject it, however, it is verse 42:16 which arguably conveys this understanding and not verse 4:47.

I would have to say that 4:47 is actually presenting that concept in some way, on the other hand thats not the only verse that can present such a concept.

However though verse 42:16 if read with the verses surrounding it I would argue that it does not actually ask the People of the Book to accept the Qurans authenticity but rather it is speaking to the Prophet Muhammad and asking him not to argue with the ones of the People of the Book who have accepted God as one.

Starting from 42:13 to 42:16

42:13 He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him].

(Note that the religion of God is One and is not divided and same for all the Messengers.)

42:14 And they became divided only after Knowledge reached them,- through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (tending) to a Term appointed, the matter would have been settled between them: But truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.

(note that people have become divided after knowledge of truth has come to them because of the selfish envy amongst themselves. Now anyone who came after those people who are now divided who inherited the Book from the Jews and Christians are in doubt about the Book and the truth of the religion) This cant be about people of the Quran as this would be speaking about a people who have not come yet.

42:15 So to that [religion of Allah ] invite, [O Muhammad], and remain on a right course as you are commanded and do not follow their inclinations but say, "I have believed in what Allah has revealed of the Book, and I have been commanded to do justice among you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. For us are our deeds, and for you your deeds. There is no [need for] argument between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is the [final] destination."

(God is telling the Prophet Muhammad to invite those who are in doubt to the religion of God that was given to Noah, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. And not follow the things that is invented and desires that were made up. And to tell them God is One and everyones God and its the same religion. Note there seems a distinction between two people on the same path with different deeds and there is no argument among them)

42:16 But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a Penalty terrible.

(It seems like God is telling anyone who believes in One God just leave that as a common grounds and go on, its the same religion and dont argue)


Please excuse me brother I dont mean to be repeating the meanings of the translation as you might be able to understand them much better than I can. I just want you to get a view of how i'm understanding the verses incase there is a mistake. May God Be Willing to make it easy for us I hope.

You also mentioned

It does not seem reasonable that once the Qur’an is accepted as authentic, as the latest Revelation, that the People of the Book can carry on with their previous guidance/laws/way of life; as if they had not heard the message. Verses 2:122, 3:199, 5:83, 17:107-108, and 28:52-53, suggest otherwise; that they become Believers (i.e. those who follow the Qur’an).

Well first I think there is a difference with those that believe in the Quran and those who follow the Quran. In Arabic the word for believe is 'Aaman' and the word for to follow is 'ittabi'u'

None of the verses you provided indicate that the People of the Book are following the Laws of the Quran. What they do on the other hand reveal is that those who are truthful and are on the right track from the People of the Book accept its veracity and humble themselves and are strengthened in there true belief in the One God. They fall in prostration as they are now reassured and reminded of the truth. They are people who can understand the false from the truth in their scriptures and recognize the similarities and also admit that indeed God has also brought another revelation confirming what is with them. And they claim that they been from before Muslimeen (believers) and ask God to write them down as witnesses to the new revelation.

With this in mind I find verses such as these below can be now understood more clearly in the light of the Quran:


002.062
"Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
 
005.069
"Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

005.048 part
...To each among you have we prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

022.067-69
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do invite (them) to thy Lord: for you are assuredly on the right way. If they do wrangle with you, say, "God knows best what it is you are doing. God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ."

005:046-47
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."


Also verses about direction of the Qibla will be understood more clearly 2:142-146. The food and the marriage with the People of the Book will be understood more better. 5:5

And yes my mistake in the previous post. Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to type 2:41 instead of 4:41


Thank you brother for you comments.

[Imran Faruqui]

Dear Hamzeh

Thank you for your considered comments.

However though verse 42:16 if read with the verses surrounding it I would argue that it does not actually ask the People of the Book to accept the Qurans authenticity but rather it is speaking to the Prophet Muhammad and asking him not to argue with the ones of the People of the Book who have accepted God as one.

Yes, this is true, but there is an implicit connotation embedded in verse 42:16. Let us look at verse 42:16 again:

042.016
"And those who dispute / argue concerning God after He has been accepted / acknowledged, invalid, null/ void is their argument in the Sight of their Lord and on them will be a severe punishment."

Now obviously if the People of the Book will suffer severe punishment if they continue to dispute about God after God has been acknowledged, what do you think would be the punishment for the Believers if they were to reject the Qur’an and/or argue about God, after having acknowledged it to be an authentic Revelation?

I would have to say that 4:47 is actually presenting that concept in some way, on the other hand thats not the only verse that can present such a concept.

As I’ve already conveyed in my previous post, the punishment which is threatened with in verse 4:47 is restricted, specifically, to the Jews who were attempting to undermine the Qur’an’s message. It is precisely this restriction that eliminates any contradiction with verse 2:62. If the punishment applied wholescale to all People of the Book, with no qualification whatsoever, then indeed there would be a glaring contradiction with verse 2:62 (and also 5:69), and one, I might say, which would be difficult to reconcile. It is precisely these types of intricacies/subtleties that make the Qur’an’s authorship to be impossible by anyone other than God.

Well first I think there is a difference with those that believe in the Quran and those who follow the Quran. In Arabic the word for believe is 'Aaman' and the word for to follow is 'ittabi'u'

None of the verses you provided indicate that the People of the Book are following the Laws of the Quran. What they do on the other hand reveal is that those who are truthful and are on the right track from the People of the Book accept its veracity and humble themselves and are strengthened in there true belief in the One God. They fall in prostration as they are now reassured and reminded of the truth. They are people who can understand the false from the truth in their scriptures and recognize the similarities and also admit that indeed God has also brought another revelation confirming what is with them. And they claim that they been from before Muslimeen (believers) and ask God to write them down as witnesses to the new revelation.

So according to the argument you outline above, an individual falls down in prostration, practically in tears, recognizing the truth of the Qur’an, further acknowledges that certain doctrines in past Scriptures are false (ostensibly with the realization that they’ve been corrupted), and then subsequently ignores the Qur’an (as if he/she had never heard it), and continues to practice previous laws/guidance/way of life, fully well knowing some of that guidance is wrong/off the straight path!

That, my dear brother, at any level of reasonable consideration, is simply not a rational proposition: obviously such an individual is arguably Muslim (someone who acknowledges the oneness of God), but not a true Believer (someone who, at the depth of his/her core, accepts the truth of the Qur’an).


With peace and regards,

Imran

[Hamzeh]

Dea Imran Faruqui

you said

Now obviously if the People of the Book will suffer severe punishment if they continue to dispute about God after God has been acknowledged, what do you think would be the punishment for the Believers if they were to reject the Qur’an and/or argue about God, after having acknowledged it to be an authentic Revelation?

I dont agree with how you may be understanding this verse 42:16. The argument that God is regarding as futile/null/invalid and a severe punishment will be on them is not only between the People of the Book. This argument is being asked not to be made to the Prophet Muhammad with any one. Whether with a Jew or a Christian or a person from his nation.

You said

So according to the argument you outline above, an individual falls down in prostration, practically in tears, recognizing the truth of the Qur’an, further acknowledges that certain doctrines in past Scriptures are false (ostensibly with the realization that they’ve been corrupted), and then subsequently ignores the Qur’an (as if he/she had never heard it), and continues to practice previous laws/guidance/way of life, fully well knowing some of that guidance is wrong/off the straight path!

That, my dear brother, at any level of reasonable consideration, is simply not a rational proposition: obviously such an individual is arguably Muslim (someone who acknowledges the oneness of God), but not a true Believer (someone who, at the depth of his/her core, accepts the truth of the Qur’an).

I can concur with the last statement that you have said in such a way. However I'm still not convinced that how a person from the People of the Book cannot be a true Believer if he/she accepts the veracity of Quran but does not follow the laws/shariah of the Quran. Such as qibla direction, the times of prayer the inheritance law and marriage arrangements the divorce law etc. But follows the laws of their own that God has sent to them in the Torah and the Bible.

A true believer is define by verse 2:285

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

Although I do agree with you that it would be wiser to follow the ways of the Quran as a more purer scripture but I cannot speak on the behalf of all humans of the Jewish and Christian faith. However just how we might believe in the Books before the Quran was revealed and we do not follow the Law of that however we believe in them they might also look at it the same way. After all God expects the Believers of the Quran to believe in what went down before it.

MU'MIN and a MUSLIM. The Quran makes somewhat a difference of the two. And I think if you read the article "Muslim and Mu'min' you would agree with it and I think in a way thats what your trying to convey.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/muslim%20mumin%20FM3.htm

You said

and then subsequently ignores the Qur’an (as if he/she had never heard it), and continues to practice previous laws/guidance/way of life, fully well knowing some of that guidance is wrong/off the straight path!

I myself have not fully read the Torah and the Bible and went into detail about them. I am not sure about when they fast when they pray and if they have any special pilgrimages? But the Quran gives warrant to eat from the food of the People of the Book which gives me the impression that a law and a shariah of theirs is still permitted and warranted. Also I may marry from their chaste women.


Just a side reminder which you probably already know:
The Holy Quran does testifies that there are some from the People of the Book who change the words of God and hide them. There is also some that conceal the truth while knowing. There is also some that make up things in the name of God and tell the people this is from God.

On the other hand there is also some that judge with justice and do good. There is also some that pray and believe in one God and the last day.

From what I can imagine is that from the Jewish and Christian people who are in authority in the time of the Prophet Muhammad they were not on what God have sent them as guidance. They were not following the Law that God has given them. Maybe similar to some countries today of the Muslim world if not all. That does not mean that the truth cannot be found. There is many countries in the world who believe in the Quran but use other sources to complete the Law. What may of happened back then is that if the Torah and Gospel have not been protected as a whole corpus and in its order that was arranged then it would of been difficult to understand the made up ones from the authentic ones. But that does not give the right to say that they are not traceable. Or the truth of the past Scriptures cannot be found. And maybe from all the people that were around someone might of had a authentic copy. Truth and false can be differentiated easily Insha'Allah once they are heard.

Also the Quran confirms that the Quran is a confirmation of what is with them in the present time of Prophet Muhammad in many verses of the QUran. And also asked the prophet to not be in doubt when he encounters it.

032:023
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"

"028.048
"But when the truth came to them from Us, they say: Why is he not given the like of what was given to Moses? (But) Did they not disbelieve in what Moses was given before? They say: Two kinds of sorcery supporting each other; and they say: Indeed we are unbelievers in all."
028.049
"Say (to them, O Muhammad): Then bring a Book from the presence of God which is a BETTER GUIDE (ahda) than BOTH OF THEM (minhuma) that I may follow it (attabi'hu) if you are truthful (sadiqeen)"

It is not the Quran that ridicules the Bible."1

With peace and regards




1.https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481

[Imran Faruqui]

Dear Hamzeh,

I think we’re reaching the point now where we’re about to go round in circles, so please consider this my last post on this thread.

You state:

I dont agree with how you may be understanding this verse 42:16. The argument that God is regarding as futile/null/invalid and a severe punishment will be on them is not only between the People of the Book. This argument is being asked not to be made to the Prophet Muhammad with any one. Whether with a Jew or a Christian or a person from his nation.

If I may remind you, I referenced verse 42:16 in context to the following point you raised in reply 13:

I basically commented that if at any point that any one from the People of the Book is familiar with the Quran and its teachings and is clearly convinced by the arguments that they should NOT reject its veracity and also NOT to say this is not from God and also NOT to reject the messenger. For this reason 4:47

I then went on to suggest that 4:47 was specific to the Jews who were attempting to undermine the Qur’an’s message, and because of this limitation, verse 4:47 cannot be considered to categorically apply on all People of the Book. Therefore, while I agree with the sentiment you expressed above, this sentiment is NOT supported by verse 4:47, but arguably, rather by verse 42:16. You have essentially conceded to this, because, in your own words, 42:16 applies to anyone – whether a Jew, Christian, or a person from the Prophet’s nation. Consequently, since 42:16 is categorical, while verse 4:47 has a qualified application, it is therefore verse 42:16 which validates the sentiment. Furthermore, while 42:16 does not specifically mention the Qur’an, the fact that it states that arguments concerning God after He is accepted are null/void, also implies, by consequence, to NOT reject the Qur’an after its acceptance; as one would essentially be arguing about God if one subsequently rejects the Qur’an.

Moving on, I have indeed read the articles you referenced, and while this library of articles are of immense contribution and an invaluable resource to understanding the Qur’an, I would like to take this opportunity to suggest that we, as individuals, are still required to take the best from them (or for that matter any scholar’s or layman’s work) and determine for ourselves our own perspectives. To this end, let us reconsider your assertion that People of the Book, after accepting the truth of the Qur’an, are not required to follow it. The Qur’an, itself, will be used to counter this assertion:

It is imperative to first establish that a Believer is someone who accepts the truth of the Qur’an, FROM HIS/HER VERY CORE. In other words, a Believer is not someone who merely gives the Qur’an “lip service.” This is clearly conveyed by the following verses:

17.107-108 "Say: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces in prostration when it is recited to them. And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled"
 
5.83 "And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses"

If the People of the Book (to whom the above verses reference) “fall down in prostration,” if their eyes are “overflowing with tears,” then clearly the Qur’an’s message has penetrated their hearts, and thus they accept the Qur’an’s authenticity, and hence they say, “Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses." Now I ask the question, what exactly are they a witness to? And the answer is that they are witnesses that the Qur’an, all of it, is from God. So, given that they accept that the ENTIRE QUR’AN IS FROM GOD, what, then, does the Qur’an ask of these witnesses? What, specifically, is the directive/enlightenment/guidance of the Qur’an as it pertains to the People of the Book?

1. The Qur’an informs the People of the Book that their own Scriptures are partially corrupted:

6: 91 They have no grasp of God’s true measure when they say, ‘God has sent nothing down to a mere mortal.’ Say, ‘Who was it who sent down the Scripture, which Moses brought as a light and a guide to people, which you made into separate sheets, showing some but hiding many? You were taught things that neither you nor your forefathers had known.’ Say, ‘God [sent it down],’ then leave them engrossed in their vain talk.

CONSEQUENCE: The People of the Book, WHO ACCEPT THE QUR’AN’S AUTHENTICITY, must now come to terms with the CERTAINTY THAT PARTS OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURE(S) ARE FALSE. How do you think a TRUE BELIEVER is obliged to react to such a realization?

2. The Qur’an points out some specific doctrines from past Scriptures that are false. For example, it points out that the doctrine of the Trinity is false:

5.73 They do blaspheme who say: God is 'Third of three' (Arabic: Thalithu thalathatin) : for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

CONSEQUENCE: The People of the Book, WHO ACCEPT THE QUR’AN’S AUTHENTICITY, but who previously believed in the Trinity doctrine, must now come to terms that Jesus is not the son of God. It is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to accept the authenticity of the Qur’an, on the one hand, and continue to accept the doctrine of the Trinity on the other. Such People of the Book MUST MAKE A CHOICE: either follow the Qur’an or follow their previous understanding of the Gospel, BUT IT CANNOT BE BOTH.

3. The Qur’an was sent to remove some of the shackles that were previously on the People of the Book:

7.157 "Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

CONSEQUENCE: The People of the Book, WHO ACCEPT THE QUR’AN’S AUTHENTICITY, can now look forward to no longer being shackled by whatever burdens were placed on them by their previous Scriptures. The importance of following the Qur’an, and thus being removed of these shackles, is immediately followed and supported by the following guidance: “So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." So the Believing people of the Book, must now contend with the fact that they will prosper if “THEY FOLLOW THE LIGHT WHICH IS SENT DOWN.” Remember, these people TRULY BELIEVE THE QUR’AN IS AUTHENTIC, so how do you think they are obliged to interpret this guidance?

4. The Qur’an is a confirmation of previous Scriptures, and with FINAL AUTHORITY over them:

5:48 We sent to you [Muhammad] the Scripture with the truth, confirming the Scriptures that came before it, and with final authority over them: so judge between them according to what God has sent down. Do not follow their whims, which deviate from the truth that has come to you. We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.

CONSEQUENCE: The People of the Book, WHO ACCEPT THE QUR’AN’S AUTHENTICITY, must come to terms with the fact that it is the Qur’an which has FINAL AUTHORITY over their own previous Scriptures. Since these people are not simply giving “lip service” to the Qur’an, they are therefore obliged to come to terms with this Qur’anic directive: THAT IT IS HAS FINAL AUTHORITY OVER THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. It is therefore AXIOMATIC that the believing People of Book are obliged to follow the Qur’an, by virtue of this directive.

It is important that all four points, above, are considered as a whole, when deciding if the People of the Book, who accept the Qur’an’s authenticity, are also obliged to follow it. An alternate perspective, of course, is outlined in the article you’ve referenced earlier. It is for each individual to review all relevant arguments, and decide what is best for themselves.

Finally, an important point of clarification, the People of the Book who DO NOT believe in the authenticity of the Qur’an, are therefore obviously NOT obliged to follow it. So long as they uphold their own Scriptures, and do not associate partners with God, they are still entitled entry to Heaven. Hence the choice is theirs: THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK CAN EITHER BELIEVE OR NOT. However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.

With peace and regards,

Imran