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Offline Mubashir

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Two versions of Islam ?
« on: December 21, 2015, 03:04:46 PM »
Salam Friends. I recently read the following in an email exchange. Does that claim hold any water? It seems to be an old charge levelled against Islam:

"....Koran is a political book of Mohammed
and his companions, people of 7th century.
In politics soft language is adopted during
period of weakness and same people
change their tone when they get power.
Down below is an example from that
political book.

During weak period:
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
109:6 To you be your religion, and to me my.

Statements on the same subject during  powerful Period:

3:85 Whose desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."
2:193 Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah...."

Offline Star

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 07:34:28 PM »
Salam :)

Before answering this email, you should probably look up what they mean by "weak period" and "strong period". To my knowledge, verses 3:85 and 2:193 were not revealed when the Muslims had established a powerful empire. Surah Baqarah was revealed when Muhammad was in Medinah.

Also, I want to address a mistranslation of verse 2:193: The word "deen" is not only used for religion, it's also used for a system or form of  government. This verse is not saying to convert everyone to Islam, it's saying to establish God's system, which includes freedom of religion for everyone.

Verses 2:191-194 make the context very clear. It's talking about fighting people who fight you and "not transgressing the limits."

Now, these verses might seem contradictory at first, but they can be reconciled. The Quran says itself that parts of it are confusing and you need to refer to other verses to explain the confusing ones.

"It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds." -3.7

So the Quran's doctrine on freedom of religion seems to be this: Islam (which includes all forms of monotheism, like Christianity) is the only acceptable religion that you can have if you want to go to heaven. Once you've been presented with guidance, if you don't accept it, then you're probably not going to heaven. However, God will punish the disbelievers, and it's not our job to do so. We cannot force people to accept Islam, but if people don't accept it then they're going to be punished by God.

These verses actually relate to each other and shouldn't be used for calling the Quran a political book. Moreover, they weren't revealed at any specific "strong" or "weak" time period. They're meant to create a balanced ideology: Submitting to God is the way to go, but if people don't do it, then you can't force them.

Hope this helps ;)

Offline Mubashir

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2015, 01:46:02 AM »
Thanks for your reply.  You made an excellent point:

(Quote).......Also, I want to address a mistranslation of verse 2:193: The word "deen" is not only used for religion, it's also used for a system or form of  government. This verse is not saying to convert everyone to Islam, it's saying to establish God's system, which includes freedom of religion for everyone.....(End quote)


This is how I understand the verses under discussion once we keep their context in mind:

The charge [verses quoted out of context to prove a point]:

"...Koran is a political book of Mohammed and his companions, people of 7th century.
In politics soft language is adopted during period of weakness and same people change their tone when they get power.

Down below is an example from that political book.

During weak period:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
109:6 To you be your religion, and to me my.

Statements on the same subject during  powerful Period:

3:85 Whose desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."
2:193 Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah..."

-----------------------------------------------

The response [self explanatory]

3:83 Do they seek, perchance, a faith other than in God, although it is unto Him that whatever is in the heavens
and on earth surrenders itself, willingly or unwillingly, since unto Him all must return?

3:84 Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been
bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been
vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction
between any of them.68 And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."

3:85 For, if one goes in search of a religion other than self-surrender unto God, it will never be accepted from him,
and in the life to come he shall be among the lost.
----
2:190 AND FIGHT in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression - for,
verily, God does not love aggressors (2:191) And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive
them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not
against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight
against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.

2:192 But if they desist - behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

2:193 Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all obedience is devoted to God alone;
but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong


Offline Star

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 07:34:53 PM »
Yes. Yessssss.

(That was my response to everything you just said.)

Sometimes I think that when people insult Islam, we should just copy-paste Quranic verses onto a document and send it to them, to prove them wrong. The verses are self-explanatory.

Even the Quran states in 3.7 that it is sometimes ambiguous and needs to be understood as a whole. I don't know how people misunderstand that.

I have been doing a great deal of research on Islam lately, ever since I came into contact with a certain person who presented me with a very twisted version of Quranic ideology. I decided to learn about religion myself and I've realized that although the Quran is not a political book or a terror manual, many Muslims make it so. Most of the Muslim world has deviated from the Quran and this is obvious when we look at societies like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I found another site that puts some perspective on the Quran: https://islamintheuk.wordpress.com/

It's a very good site that supports peace and gives detailed refutations to people like Ali Sina (who annoy me greatly). It also denounces hadith culture. I just thought I'd put that out there in case anyone wants to learn more.

Mia

Offline good logic

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2015, 01:19:35 PM »
Peace Mubashir.

There has only been,is ,will be ,one "Islam".  GOD s system. One GOD .One religion.One congregation. One simple universal message.All serving GOD Alone:

http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Mubashir

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2015, 06:57:47 PM »
Thanks for your responses, dear friends.

Funny thing is that there are some Muslim priests who readily endorse the alleged two versions of Islam. The Islam of peace [when weak] and and Islam of domination [When strong]! Needless to say that if such are the priests, then God bless the congregation !

The links you have provided should provide a thought provoking version of Islam that is based on reason and wisdom.

Seasons greetings with respect to all brothers and sisters of this forum which helps us to present to the world what real Islam is.

Offline Star

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2015, 02:18:16 AM »
Salam Mubashir,
You said "if such are the priests, then God bless the congregation!"--sarcasm, I'm assuming, right? (That was probably a dumb question, but just making sure.)

Yes, priests are kind of ridiculous. You just have to look at islamqa.info to see what I'm talking about. The sheikh on that site degrades women and says that women who drive are prostitutes, takes way more evidence from hadith than from quran, and uses the most corrupted translations. He also says it's haram to live in the west, women must dress in Darth Vader costumes (niqabs) at all times, and similar nonsense. It's depressing but kind of pathetically amusing when you get to it.

Speaking of victory, since that's a part of this thread: The Quran assures true believers of victory. You notice that during early Islam, when hadiths weren't very widespread and people were decent, Islam was quite sucessful. Muslims were conquering Persia and Byzantine and making all sorts of scientific advances. However, now Islam has become so corrupted that even my teachers at school make derogatory remarks about Muslims. (Very annoying.)

When is God going to fix this???

Offline good logic

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Re: Two versions of Islam ?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2015, 07:17:00 AM »
Peace mia.

You ask: When is God going to fix this???

GOD said we have ( humans) a predetermined time here on earth.
 GOD will fix everything ( here for those who follow/obey Him) and on that "promised day". i.e "Yawm Alquiama" for the rest

Those who answer the call.listen/ heed the message from GOD , will trust and have confidence in GOD to fix "their part of life" here and in the hereafter.

For the majority, GOD is fulfilling His promise to let them decide /act as per "freedom of choice".
GOD does not break His promise.
Each one needs to "fix" their part first, then the whole jigsaw will "fix".
The battle of "good  v  evil "continues...
GOD bless you.
Peace.