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Offline adam

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22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« on: March 23, 2016, 10:14:30 AM »
Salam All,

I have been wondering. The verses 22:47 and 32:5 mention that a day in God's sight equals 1000 years to us humans.

Does this only apply to the time in which Qiyamah is upon us?

If not, would that put God within the confines of space and time?

Look forward to some good explanations.


Offline Star

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 10:50:43 AM »
Salam,

Verse 22:47 can be explained if you look at the word-by-word translation. I used the Quranic Arabic Corpus morphology of the verse, and what it actually says is, "...and a day with your Lord is equal to a thousand years in the way you count." The actual Arabic clearly uses the preposition "with", which means that this verse refers to a human's understanding of time when they are in the presence of their Lord.

The second verse you cited is talking about the speed that angels travel at. It's not referencing how God Himself counts time; it actually seems to be talking about the way humans would measure angel-travel.

I may be incorrect, but this is the answer to my understanding :)

Offline adam

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 01:43:49 PM »
Hi Mia,

Not sure i get it fully.

If i were in the presence of my Lord, Would i be beyond what space and time encompasses since God is beyond all of that which we perceive?

Why would a day with our Lord be equaled to 1000 years of our time if God is not within space and time? Shouldn't we be in a timeless environment - infinity?

The second verse, i am not too sure if it is speaking about angels speed of travel or the speed of our ruh when ascending. But clearly from the language, from what i read it means that the day of reckoning is like a thousand years too.

This still indicates that God goes through what we call time?

If a thousand years passed here on earth, and God watches as if it is just a day for Him it tells us that God too experiences time but at a much different speed. Time Dilation possibly?

It doesn't make sense to me at the moment.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 02:49:44 PM »
Asalamu Alykum

There is a brief explanation Bro Joseph gives regarding your questions which I hope would be of some help Insha'Allah.  [1]

From what I understand is that God is not bound to time or space. He is the creator of both the time and space. God relates to us about time and space so He can make us understand them from our relative point of view. So we can have a grasp of the measurement and feeling. And its possibly not to be an exact number but its to indicate a very very long time from our reference point of understanding.

You mentioned
Quote
If a thousand years passed here on earth, and God watches as if it is just a day for Him it tells us that God too experiences time but at a much different speed. Time Dilation possibly?

I wouldn't say God experiences time but would say that He is the creator of time and dimensions of different worlds or spaces so a 1 year of what He created in another dimension would be similar to a 1000 years of how we recognize it here on earth. God knows best of course.

22:47 And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.

32:5 He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.


Peace and Blessings

[1] Is Allah's Day Equivalent to 1,000 yrs or 50,000 yrs?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=405.0

Offline adam

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 03:27:26 PM »
Dear Hamzeh,

Thanks! after reading the links you provided, it does clear up some confusion.

So basically, it is just a parable? not to be taken at face value?

Being a man of science, and knowing that every value needs to be real, i found it a bit difficult to accept that the concept of time in those verses were unclear.

Looking at it from a subjective point of view, If God told me in the Quran that when the day comes in which i will face Him, The day will be equivalent to 1000 years back on earth, I will straight away think that time runs slower in His Realm. No two ways around that when reading the verses. But since my command of Arabic is weak, then i might have not fully understoodd those verses.

I just find it hard to accept that God mentioned it like that, instead of telling it like it is; that there will be no sense of time when facing Him at the day of judgement.

If there was a science question in the same context, it would render the question faulty if you get what i mean.

Thanks anyway for the help. Appreciate all of you here.

 :)


Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 07:05:15 PM »
Salamu Alykum Adam

you said
Quote
If God told me in the Quran that when the day comes in which i will face Him, The day will be equivalent to 1000 years back on earth, I will straight away think that time runs slower in His Realm. No two ways around that when reading the verses.

Take this verse for example

7:54 Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days(Ayyamin), and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!

If you try to view the word Ayyamin(Days) as periods or events instead of actual day as how we see it today the verses could be more clear. The Quran also states that the moon is an indication of time.  And that there is 12 month in a calendar year. So when God tells us about 1 event or period that is a 1000 years of what we recognize we instantly know that its a very long time. It seems like the concept of how we will recognize time will remain the same on earth and on Judgment Day this is only to us humans.

We should separate the idea of how we humans view time and how God views it. He is just giving us the understanding about His creation of time which He is not necessarily subject to it.

It seems like the period that God has created for His judgement to take place on the Day of Judgment will be equal to 50000 years of what we view in this life. Or it could be that the 50000 years could just be the period in which the Angels and the Spirit take decrees back and forth from God as in 97:4.

you said
Quote
I just find it hard to accept that God mentioned it like that, instead of telling it like it is; that there will be no sense of time when facing Him at the day of judgement.

Well God is not bound to time. As He is the Creator of time and Judgment Day. It seems like we will still have a sense of time.  It could be that OUR recollection of time on the Day of Judgment will remain the same way it is presently on earth and thats why God is saying it will FEEL like 50,000 years of this time.

22:47 And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.

Remember whatever God has planned out to be part of His creation will always come true. He may of set it up as phases or events or periods of which is a measure that goes by Days with Allah that must play its roles. Then God explains to us those periods by a way of our understanding of time in years because then we understand how much a 1000 years could feel like since we know what 1 year feels like.


God Himself is the ever-present. Always was and always will be. He is the Creator. God is the only Being. Glory be to Him.
So God would not be subject to time.

This is only my understanding to the best of my ability about time. He is the Creator of it.

God know best of all things

With peace and blessings Insha'Allah  :)


Offline adam

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 09:44:25 AM »
Salamun Alaikum Brother Hamzeh,

Thank you for further clarifying those verses. Let me digest it. In good time i hope i will be able to truly appreciate and understand the meaning.



Offline Star

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2016, 11:39:07 PM »
Salam Adam,

I would say that the first verse you cited may be referring to the Day of Judgement. When we are in the presence of God on that particular day, to us it will seem like 1000 years, while God will still remain timeless.

Sorry if I just confused you more...I think these verses are metaphorical and we don't need to worry about them too much.

Offline adam

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 12:33:37 PM »
Salam Mia,

Thanks for your help as well. don't worry about confusing me. all good!

Offline relearning

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 01:50:46 PM »
considering time and space and accepting God is beyond time and space the ayat 70:4 Angels and holy soul ascend to him (a direction place) in a day which is 50.000 years (and time). So this verse speaks both a location and time and as you know the distance taken in space is time multiply speed d=t*v then if accept angels are made of light and light travels at 300.000 km/per second then it sums up to :

50.000 years=50.000 * 360 (days in lunar calendar year) * 24 (hours in a day) * 60 (minutes in an hour) * 60 (seconds in a minute) =1555200000000 seconds

300.000 (light speed km per second) * 1555200000000 = 466560000000000000 km. (the distance angels and holy soul must take in order to reach Him)
What i wonder if this is the way to rich Him then its in the limits of time and space because to reach Him you need to have to cover this distance in time.

Offline Amir moshiri

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Re: 22:47 & 32:5 is God beyond time and space or not?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 03:20:33 PM »
One day for God = 1000 years as we count
Every 1000 years as we count he manages all things in universe and earth for next period = he manages every day all the universe for next day
Means from jesus up to now 2 days passed
50000 years depends on how many days in a year=
  ~360*1000*50000 =18 billion years