Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: is quran crystal clear?

Offline relearning

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
is quran crystal clear?
« on: March 30, 2016, 04:40:16 PM »
the following is an excerpt from one of the answers in the forum:

"The Quran claims to be a fully detailed explanation (Arabic: fussilat 41:3; 11:1), the perfect guidance (Arabic: hudan 2:2), a clear convincing proof (Arabic: burhan (4:174), the ultimate scale (Arabic: mizan 42.17; 57:25), the discernment between truth and falsehood (Arabic: Furqan 25:1, 2:53), an evidence absolutely clear (Arabic: bayyina 20:133) and a clear explanation of all matters (Arabic: tibiana lekulli shayin 16:89)."

1-Can anybody without any prejudice or bias or prejudgement claim fully that Quran is clear? in what concept? Does it need any mediator? Knowing the masses of people which quran takes as its addressee.

2-Do we need anyone to show that it is clear? or its itself show how clear it is when one human being starts to read it?

3-If it is too clear and detailed and fully explained things even it says its explaining revelations (when God sends revelation He also sends other revelation to explain the ones sent before) then why these many people starting very close friends of prophet Muhammad peace unto him divided into sects so easily with ideas impossible to reconcile?

4-is it clear to average person or to scholars?

5-is quran time and space bound? does quran have a historical frame? If so knowing historical documents which dont have the priviledge of god protected sign or promise on them needs to be studied which makes it logical also to know and to study hadis along with historical documents to understand what the context of quran is. Because in the end we need to treat hadis as historical documents. for example how would you know who is zayd in quran which prophet is instructed to marry his ex-wife after he divorce it.

6-if quran is time and space bound does it mean that we are not the real audience it talked directly? Or the rules and sanctions it put also time and space bound? Like cutting hands or whipping are really a strict way for punishing i mean should we also preserve the physical shape and way of the punishing or the core of idea that these are actions requires punishment and at the time of prophet in arabs it is the way they are dealt with criminals and it is what the time and space allowed. So is quran and revelation also shaped by to  whom its audience is? then does it make quran universal or local? can we divide quran into sections which are universal and which are historical?

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2016, 05:03:25 AM »
Are you familiar with 3:7?

Offline relearning

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2016, 05:57:24 PM »
yes i am familiar but that doesnt stop many diverse-opposite opinions about the muhkam ayats as well. so would you kindly visit the numbered articles and reply  or just forget it =)

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2016, 04:15:51 AM »
When determining if something is "clear" or not - is this subjective? yes/no

Offline good logic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 519
    • View Profile
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2016, 07:55:24 PM »
Peace relearning.
Qoran clearly explains that this life is a test to all humans, in that context it is  clear. i.e if one means  "clear" to leave no doubt in the mind of all humans ,then the test will be over! There will be no need of Qoran or any other message!.

1)  Yes in my view. Clear as :
a)You need sincerity and patient study.
b) GOD to teach it.
c) A messenger to clarify certain rites...
d)Some will be guided and some misguided.

2) Both. To fulfil a test of GOD Alone or others.

3) See 1)

4)Yes and No. It depends if one is:
a) sincere.
b) A believer.
c)"Ouli Al Albab", Knowledgeable, guided,...

5) Qoran is a message for salvation. What has not been detailed in it is not relevant whether it is history or anything else.

6) Qoran is the "living messenger" .To all generations. The last scripture to all mankind.
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline munir rana

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2016, 07:21:05 PM »
I am a novice in learning Quran. Just sharing my experience.

I think no one can claim and should not without examine it. Every believer of each religion should examine his own scripture to find the truth. One must not recieve/abandon his own religion without scrutiny. Thats blind following, disgrace for his own intelect.

Quran numerously invites its reader to examine the truths it presents. It will be clear only when one read it. It would be more clear when  read it repeatedly and earnestly.

One more thing, clarity depends on the ability to discern also. There are some clear verses which are the foundation, as Quran informs us, which are also sufficient to be guided to straight path. But there are also some verses which need deep knowledge to understand. (3:7) These are also explained. But these are for the knowledgeable reader. Without special knowledge one can not even understand the theory of relativity, one of the most popular theorem of last century.

There must have many reasons- political, social, cultural even family traditions which clouded/persuaded the mind of people and made them misguided. This is easy. Even at the time of prophet (pbuh) it happend frequently. We generally think that each companion of the prophet (pbuh) was a true follower. This might not be the case. Many people embraced Islam or converted to protect themselves. There were many other interests also. 

Some verses of Quran are time and space bound, I think. Such as 33:53. there are many others. Some verses are for exlusively for the prophet (pbuh) also.  When it says, O believers! not necesarily it is a call for all the believers to come. If we read with context, I think it would be clear to us whether it is for the then believers or for every believers.

Quran must have a historical frame. But we dont need it to understand the Book. Those details could fullfill our curiosity, but God did not send the Quran as a history book or He sent not it to fullfill our curiosity also. Its a guide book.

Once again, after reading a few times now I think, Quran becomes clear to its earnest reader. It does not talk to just anyone.

Sorry for being so long.

Offline relearning

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 03:09:59 PM »
When determining if something is "clear" or not - is this subjective? yes/no

If it is subjective then it is not universal that means it is not crystal clear then.

Offline relearning

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re:is quran crystal clear
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 03:33:18 PM »
a few points i want to address in the given replies.

Dear Wakas so at the end if it is subjective then it means it is not clear convincing proof then. so the claims in the excerpt short fall.

Dear good logic thanks for your answers. A messenger to clarify certain rites would direct you to sources other than  quran and it means quran is a historical document or needs other historical man made data to reach its goals. As i saw you willingly avoid answering if quran is bound by time and history. And the detail i gave wasnot the main theme of the question it was again an example to present that quran has a historical frame. But as i said above you avoid to give a clear answer to that assumption. By the way where does it say it is the last final message for the human kind? except for sayign the prophet is the last nabi (khatama nabiyana 33:40). Is this claim based on a quran?

For the "Ouli Al Albab" who are them can you point one? If you can point one then it means you are one of Ouli Al Albab. Because to point one you must be able to evaluate their level it means you are at least at their level.

Dear munir rana thanks to you also for your answers. "It would be more clear when  read it repeatedly and earnestly." is it a part of human psychology? the more you repeat the more you believe? like chanting your anthem? repeating something yourself in order to force yourself to believe it? is this the way to understand final message? force yourself to accept it read read read and keep reading untill your mind and heart and all human faculties surrender? Earnestly repeatedly... It doesnt talk to just anyone? Why? is it because it is a book for only guided? (2:2 There is no doubt that this book is a guide for the pious).

Offline munir rana

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 08:09:10 PM »
Dear relearning

Salam.

I did not mean 'merely read it repeatedly' will help anyone. Thats meaningless. I did mean to read it repeatedly to understand its meaning.
I never said " the more you repeat the more you believe? like chanting your anthem?".
I meant, the more you read (to understand) the more you understand. I experienced it personaly. I should have said it clearly.
And yes, I think it does not talk to just anyone. It will talk even to a disbeliever/skeptic also, if he/she earnestly sincerely read it to understand its message.

Allah knows best.

regards.

Offline good logic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 519
    • View Profile
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2016, 04:31:56 AM »
Peace relearning.
Thank you for your reply.
I see your logic now. However Qoran claims to be "fully detailed". To believe GOD is to really believe Qoran has all the answers. For me GOD is precise and only utters the "truth". Qoran has no time restraints .It is for all "times" and for all generations.

As far as scriptures from GOD , Qoran must be the last scripture as only "Nabi" brings a scripture . A last "Nabi" means a last scripture!

Now for "Ouli- Alalbab", again Qoran descibes them here:(13:19-22)
13:19
Is one who recognizes that your Lord's revelations to you are the truth equal to one who is blind? Only "Ouli-Alalbab" will take heed.
أَفَمَن يَعلَمُ أَنَّما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ الحَقُّ كَمَن هُوَ أَعمىٰ إِنَّما يَتَذَكَّرُ أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ

I call them the "true believers". They believe every word of Qoran and ponder/study all the words to to  try their best to follow GOD s commands/instructions to redeem themselves.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: is quran crystal clear?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2016, 02:21:14 AM »
peace relearning,

I thought it was obvious that a reader interprets a text when they read it, and not every single person on earth will interpret it the same way.

If you conclude that means the text is unclear, that is up to you. I however have a different interpretation. It is clear to some, not clear to others.

And it is only I who is responsible for my own interpretation (and consequently application). You are responsible for yours, etc.