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Offline ZKAB90

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The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion

The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:

The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.

The Prophet mentioned that there would be signs forewarning the approach of the last day.

The barefooted bedouins competing in building tall buildings. Today we find in the Arabian Peninsula, the Arabs who used to be impoverished herders of camels and sheep, are competing in building the tallest tower blocks. Two of the latest examples are Kingdom Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia  and Al Faisaliah Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them.

The increase of literacy.

Safinah narrated that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the rule of His Kingdom to whomever He wills." (narrated by Abu-Dawood). This was indeed the length of the Caliphate after the death of the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). After that, the rule of monarchies replaced the rule of the Caliphate. 

source of the quotes: http://www.answering-christianity.com/prophecies_by_prophet_muhammad.htm

Offline Hassan A

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2016, 08:01:23 AM »
Salaam ZKB90,

With respect I am going to have to express disagreement with all that you wrote.

The believe that the prophet was able to make those predictions seem to go contrary to Quranic verses which make it plain that the prophet had no such ability; there are ample ayats in the quran in which Allah (continuously) states that none knows of the coming of the hour except Him. Below are some of the ayats I am referring to:

"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)." [Al-Qur'an 31:34]

"They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): none but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you.' They ask thee as if thou were eager in search thereof: say: 'The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not.' " [Al-Qur'an 7:187]


Pay close attention to the last ayat that I quoted which is the one I want to scrutinize to give you a better understanding of my question.

As you can see, the ayat starts off with the words "they ask you/thee." We can agree that the word/pronoun "you" (used in the beginning of the last ayat that I quoted) refers to the prophet; and that word/pronoun "they" refers to those during the time of the prophet who would inquire him about (in this case) the last hour, in ordered to test his validity of prophet hood. And the prophet, being one who would not have spoken on a matter in which he had no knowledge of, could not have just fabricated an answer on the spot. So we can conclude that this ayat (as well as similar ayats) were thus send to him as an answer to their inquiries (regarding the last hour).

Furthermore, Allah (continuously) says in the quran that the prophet was no more than a human being and had no such knowledge of the last hour. As demonstrated by the following ayats:

"Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." [Quran 18:110]

"Say (O Muhammed), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner." [Quran 46:9][/u

"Say (O Muhammed), "I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. If I KNEW THE FUTURE, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe." [Quran 7:188 ]

"Say (O Muhammed), "I do not say to you that I possess the treasures of God. Nor do I know the future..." [Quran 6:50]

So the logic from the four ayahs I quoted can be broken down as follows:
Human beings cannot predict any part of the future; prophet Muhammad was a human being; therefore he (Muhammad) could not have foretold the future.


The Quran explicitly and consistently informs its readers that nothing in the Heavens or the Earth has knowledge of the hour. This knowledge is ONLY with God and that it can befall almost suddenly with no premise.

There are also no indications or premise given in the Quran that would inform one when the hour will come to pass as this would contradict the Quranic maxim that the Day of Judgment may come on you suddenly.
 
 022:055
"And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day"
 
016:077
"And to God belongs the unseen of the heavens and the Earth, and the matter of the Hour (of doom) is but as a twinkling of the eye, or it is nearer still. Indeed! God is able to do all things"
[1]

[1]
http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20second%20coming%20attested%20by%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

Offline ZKAB90

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2016, 05:45:34 PM »
Salaam ZKB90,

With respect I am going to have to express disagreement with all that you wrote.


Salaam,

With respect I am going to express my disagreement too because the miracle were fulfilled;

Furthermore the Qur'an was not the only message bring by the Prophet. Read these two articles;

1/ http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_qur_an_was_the_only_revelation_that_the_prophet_received_from_allah_

2/ http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_only_duty_of_the_messenger_is_to_simply_deliver_the_qur_an

The knowledge of the unseen was not a personal ability of the Prophet, but a gift from our Lord.

Offline Hassan A

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 06:06:16 AM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

I haven't had time to read the links you shared with me in their totality, but I was able to skim it. And, with what little time I was able to dedicate reading it, it appeared to me that that author was basing his premise (or the prophet having received a dual revelation) on arguments (and Quranic verses) often parroted by fellow traditionalist Muslims; arguments and verses which have already been addressed by respected forum members on this form as well as Joseph Islam in some of his articles.

For example, the author of those article hinges his believe of Muhammad having supposedly received dual revelation on the oft made claim of the Quran not detailing how to offer Salat. Yet, as has been shown by Joseph Islam in one of his article, the Salat is indeed alluded to in details in the Quran:

HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm

The author of those article also hinges his premise on the Quran's usage of the word wahi. Yet what that author fails to understand is that, with regards to wahi, is NOT limited to prophetic inspiration/s. God's creation (including everyday humans) have the ability to receive 'wahi' from Him in various capacities:

The various heavens were inspired (awha) to perform a specific function (41:12)
The bees were inspired (awha) to build habitations in the mountains and trees (16:68)
The Earth will be inspired (awha) on The Day (99:5)
With respect to humans who were not messengers, the mother of Prophet Moses (pbuh) received 'awha' to put her baby into the river and not to fear (28:7).[1]

As evident from the above verses (in particular 2:87) all human beings (bashar) have the capacity to receive inspired suggestions from God in one form or another, such as: a thought in one’s heart or mind or an indication by which a particular truth / understanding can be manifested.

For more on the topic of wahi, please consider visiting the following links:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=97.0
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wahi%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prophetic%20utterances%20FM3.htm

Furthermore, it is worthwhile to ask:
1) Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to say/suggest the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? How can a book (the Quran) which is referred to as a “manifest light”(4:174) be shed more light on by other/another sources? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:

"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]

If, as the other of those article claims, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?

Consider the following verse, as well:

"Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you: THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches"[Quran 6:19]

If, as the author claims, the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source (i.e. the Hadeeth) then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?

Please bear in mind that continuously are we told (in the Quran) that the only revelation (or scripture) which Muhammad received was the revelation of the Quran (See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7) and it was that revelation (Quran) alone which he was responsible for upholding and following (See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50), responsible for admonishing and warning the people with (See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70), and responsible for judging with it (See: 5:48-49; 4:105).

So, the claim that the Prophet was taught something else(or received something else) vital for mankind's guidance which was not included in the scripture is a violation of so many other verses (some of them cited above) which claim that the only revelation to the Prophet for mankind's guidance was the Quran which was complete for its intended purpose. Please consider reading the following article which goes into a bit more detail:

 THE QURAN STANDS ALONE AS SOLE RELIGIOUS GUIDANCE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20sole%20guidance%20FM3.htm

Quote
With respect I am going to express my disagreement too because the miracle were fulfilled

1) I am not arguing whether SOME of those event occurred or not. I am arguing against the believe that the prophet was able to foretell them.

Offline Hassan A

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 06:20:04 AM »
Quote
The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them

Please bear in mind that Any and all religious assertions or theological standpoints/practices must find clear, unequivocal support from the Quran. Any and all theological standpoint/assertion whatsoever in the name of God's religion, must find clear, unambiguous, unequivocal proof and authority from the Quran; as it is the Quran that is the primary and ultimate authority from God. Hence, from a Quran perspective, said prohibition finds absolutely not support.

Many, like to make use of the following verses in support of the prohibition of/on Music:

"Then at this statement do you wonder? And you laugh and do not weep. While ye amuse yourselves? So prostrate to Allah and worship [Him]." [Quran 53:59-62]

In the above verse, some misinterpret the phrase "While ye amuse yourselves" to mean music and singing. The word is general and indicates that any kind of amusement that keeps one from paying his duties to God will lead you to commit a sin; It does not make it haram or prohibited. If you amuse yourself by watching Baseball while forgetting to do your Salat (prayers) on time, then you are committing a sin but this does not make Baseball haram. If you amuse yourself by playing games with your children while forgetting to pray on time you are committing a sin but that doesn't make playing with your children haram. If you miss you prayers while being preoccupied with listen to music or singing you've committed a sin but that doesn't make music haram. Remember that music is like air and water, it is not haram per se, but the way it is used in certain circumstances will control its status then.

"But there are, among men, those who purchase idle (Arabic: Lahwa-l) tales (Arabic: Hadith), without knowledge, to mislead from the Path of God and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty"[Quran 31:6]

In the above verse, what is being referred to is those who mock the Quran. Nowhere in that verse does one see the word 'music' (at least in the Arabic Quran). Rather the word used in that verse, which some translators incorrectly translate as music, is the word ‘idle’ (Lahwa-l Hadith). The above verse is simply saying that there are, among man, those who purchase false words/idle (Lahwa-l Hadith) without knowledge. It’s an allusion to a pseudo-philosophical play with words and metaphysical speculations without any real meaning (or evidence) behind them.[1]

"And incite [to senselessness] whoever you can among them with your voice (Arabic: biṣawtika..."[Quran 17:64]

In the above verse, the words "voice" signifies all kinds of desire and temptation and has absolutely no reference to music whatsoever.

Furthermore, on what grounds can you assert that the prophet had any right to forbbid something which Allah has never mad forbidden Himself?
Please consider the following verse in which Allah verball chastises the prophet for having forbidden a think which he had not authority to do:

“O Prophet! Why do you forbid that which God has made lawful to you? You seek to please your wives! But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”[Quran 66:1]

Hence, if the prophet had any authority to forbidden something on his own accord Allah would not have called him out for this.

Consider also the following verse which makes it abundantly clear that the prophet had no authority to invent any such saying in the name of Allah on his own accord (which no support from the Quran):

"And if he (Muhammad) were to invent any sayings in Our name, We would have certainly seized him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart. Nor could any one of you withhold him (from Our wrath)"Quran 69:44-47

Quote
The knowledge of the unseen was not a personal ability of the Prophet, but a gift from our Lord

Except, as has been show my verses I have cited you earlier, he (the prophet) had not such knowledge.
But allow me to ask you: What, then, is your take on the ample verses which make it crystal clear that he (the prophet) had no knowledge of the unseen?

Offline ZKAB90

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 04:15:07 PM »
But allow me to ask you: What, then, is your take on the ample verses which make it crystal clear that he (the prophet) had no knowledge of the unseen?

Salam Hassan,

Her knowledge of unseen were occasionnally given by Allah. Occasionnally.

Explain thus why the alleged prophecies have been fulfilled?

Offline Hassan A

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2016, 07:06:06 AM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

Quote
Explain thus why the alleged prophecies have been fulfilled?

Are you familiar with what is known as the burden of proof / proof of burden?
If not, you can find what it means here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

Anyways, upon you is the burden to, first, proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the prophet predicted some of those events?
Please bear in mind that I said beyond a reasonable doubt

Quote
Her knowledge of unseen were occasionnally given by Allah. Occasionnally.

It is true that there were SOME things which Allah has informed the prophet of, but it is dishonest to draw from that the conclusion that the prophet, thus, was able to predict future events (this despite the fact that the Quran makes it Crystal clear that he had not such ability).

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 01:08:39 AM »
Salamon Hassan, just so that you know, 6:50, and 7:188 don't state that.
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Offline Hassan A

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 06:33:21 AM »
Salam eliiah,

What exactly are you referring to when you say "just so that you know, 6:50, and 7:188 don't state that"?

Offline Seraphina

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2016, 05:30:21 PM »
Assalamu alaykum,
I had no time to read in detail each and every post (to be honest), but let me make something clear here. The prophecies (foretelling future events) and the laws to abide by (what is allowed, what is compulsory, what is forbidden, and so on), are two very different things. The Quran is crystal-clear in the point that prophet had no right to make things halal or haram, or to invent new laws that are not given from Allah directly (like the laws in the Quran). That is undisputed.
In regards to prophecies, as far as I've seen, when Allah talks about the unseen, it includes the past, present and future in total and in detail. This kind of the unseen is with Him alone and with no other of his creations. But pieces of the unseen regarding to the future have been given to prophets he sent, so prophet Muhammad might not have been exception. Just because prophet was informed of a thing or two of the future doesnt mean he had the knowledge of the 'unseen' in general, as mentioned in the Quran.
Forgive me any mistakes, Allah knows best.
Your sister Seraphina :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Wakas

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2016, 05:59:41 PM »
The answer to your question is really simple, captured in the idiom: throw enough mud at a wall and some will stick, i.e. predict enough prophecies some will come true.

The Quran is very clear on this however:

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/prophet-muhammad-know-future-quran.html

The Day God will gather the messengers and He will say: "What was the response you received?"; they said: "We have no knowledge, You are the Knower of all the unseen." [5:109]

Say: "I do not say to you that I possess God's treasures, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me." Say: "Are the blind and the seer the same? Do you not think?" [6:50]

Say: "I do not possess for myself any benefit or harm, except what God wills. And if I could know the unseen, then I would have increased my good fortune, and no harm would have come to me. I am but a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who believe." [7:188]

And they say: "If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord." Say: "Indeed, the unseen is for God, so wait, and I will wait with you." [10:20]

"Nor do I say to you that I have the treasures of God, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say that I am an angel, nor do I say to those whom your eyes look down upon that God will not grant them any good. God is more aware of what is in their souls; in such case I would be among the wicked." [11:31]

Say, "I am but a human being like you, being inspired that your god is One god. So whoever looks forward to meeting his Lord, then let him do good works and not set up any partner in the service of his Lord." [18:110]

Say: "None in the heavens or the Earth know the unseen except God. And they do not perceive when they will be resurrected."[27:65]

Say: "I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner" [46:9]

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Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2016, 03:38:42 AM »
سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ Hassan A,

I refer to your use of the word غيب. Although that might include the word you translated it to, it doesn't mean it, it means "unseen".
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