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Offline ZKAB90

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Hadith: YES or NO?
« on: April 23, 2016, 10:52:01 PM »
YES

1. some of them were written down at the time of the Prophet
2. the hadith scholars have carefully examined all the hadiths
3. there are [alleged] scientific statements inside
4. there are a great number of prophecies possibly fulfilled
5. without them we can't understand some things of the Qur'an
6. it gives us the prayer ritual

NO

1. as for Bukhari corpus, it wasn't written down by hitself, rather by his student Ibn Hajar
2. Ibn Hajar collected what he thinked being the true hadiths in all the Bukhari corpus
3. Abu Huraira is the primary source of hadiths, with 5374 narrations. He was the owner of a prodigious memory...
4. some hadiths contradicts themselves, but hadith follower do mental gymnastic to fit them
5. the Qur'an advice to not follow other statements:

These are the messages of Allah, which We recite to thee with truth. In what announcement will they then believe after Allah and His signs? [45, 6]


Offline Hassan A

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Re: Hadith: YES or NO?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2016, 03:14:59 AM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

Quote
some of them were written down at the time of the Prophet

I am curios to know what percentage of them were written down during the prophets times....

Quote
3. there are [alleged] scientific statements inside

Can you share with us those alleged scientific statements contained in them?

Quote
5. without them we can't understand some things of the Qur'an

With respect I completely disagree. First off, it is a fact that the Hadith do not explain every verse of the Quran. Secondly, and more importantly, A) Furthermore, Allah refers to the Quran as a “manifest light”(4:174), so how can something that is a "manifest light" (the Quran) be shed more light on by other sources? How can a book which explains various things (16:89; 20:133) (itself) be in need of further explanation by other sources?
Please consider read the following peciece which further expands on this:

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/ar/t32.htm

Quote
6. it gives us the prayer ritual

1) Of what purpose does the Quran serve if it fails to (as some would claim) mention (either in part or completely) those rituals, which are so fundamental to the religion and for our guidance and the manner in which to perform them?
2) What are we to think of a scripture (i.e the Quran) that repeatedly emphasizes a certain rituals (such as salah and zakat) but never explains (as some claim) how to perform said rituals? The conclusion drawn would be that said scripture is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God).
3) A scripture cannot claim to be 'fussilat' (explained in detail See Quran: 41:3; 11:1) and then not provide necessary details for human guidance as part of God ordained 'religion'.
Thus I disagree with the claim that one cannot perform the salat while adhering soley to a Qruan-centric position.

The following article explains paryer from a Quran perspective, perfectly:

HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm

Offline ZKAB90

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Re: Hadith: YES or NO?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 08:39:18 PM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

Quote
some of them were written down at the time of the Prophet

I am curios to know what percentage of them were written down during the prophets times....

Quote
3. there are [alleged] scientific statements inside

Can you share with us those alleged scientific statements contained in them?

Quote
5. without them we can't understand some things of the Qur'an

With respect I completely disagree. First off, it is a fact that the Hadith do not explain every verse of the Quran. Secondly, and more importantly, A) Furthermore, Allah refers to the Quran as a “manifest light”(4:174), so how can something that is a "manifest light" (the Quran) be shed more light on by other sources? How can a book which explains various things (16:89; 20:133) (itself) be in need of further explanation by other sources?
Please consider read the following peciece which further expands on this:

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/ar/t32.htm

Quote
6. it gives us the prayer ritual

1) Of what purpose does the Quran serve if it fails to (as some would claim) mention (either in part or completely) those rituals, which are so fundamental to the religion and for our guidance and the manner in which to perform them?
2) What are we to think of a scripture (i.e the Quran) that repeatedly emphasizes a certain rituals (such as salah and zakat) but never explains (as some claim) how to perform said rituals? The conclusion drawn would be that said scripture is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God).
3) A scripture cannot claim to be 'fussilat' (explained in detail See Quran: 41:3; 11:1) and then not provide necessary details for human guidance as part of God ordained 'religion'.
Thus I disagree with the claim that one cannot perform the salat while adhering soley to a Qruan-centric position.

The following article explains paryer from a Quran perspective, perfectly:

HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm

As-salaam aleikum dear brother Hassan,

A great response !

About the alleged scientific miracles in the Hadiths see

a) About the hadith of the fly into drink the hadith apologist claim here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm and its plausible rebuttal http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/01/29/islamic-science-has-come-to-this-pitiful-end/

b) The hadith of the sex determination http://www.answering-christianity.com/mahir/sex_determination_miracle.htm  and its plausible rebuttal http://www.progressive-muslim.org/Sahih-hadiths-wrong-on-sex-determination.htm

c) The hadith of the benefits of drinking camel urine here https://islamqa.info/en/83423 and its plausible rebuttal here http://www.progressive-muslim.org/Camel-urine-as-medicine.htm

d) The hadith about the 360 joints in the body http://www.answering-christianity.com/360_joints.htm and its plausible rebuttal here http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/360joints.htm

Offline ZKAB90

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Re: Hadith: YES or NO?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 11:45:22 PM »
the hadith regarding that people will traverse great distances in short periods of time; the hadith describing an airplane as "a white donkey made of iron whose span between its two ears is 40 cubits."  This hadith refers to what the Dajjal will ride on. The Prophet (pbuh) is also reported to have said that the Dajjal will enter into every city. When asked what the Dajjal's speed will be like the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have replied: "Like a wind that leaves a cloud in its trail." and so on.   

You may also add:

The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said as regards to one of the signs of the end of time: "People will hop between the clouds and the earth" Which is related to the whole concept of traversing long distances in short times, and to the whole idea of the use of airplanes for travelling or indeed "hopping between the clouds and the earth".

In another narration the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said that people will dance with instruments on their heads (which some have interpreted as headphones) and that they would stay up all night dancing like that (which connotes the whole idea of people going to nightclubs and disco's, with blazing music above their heads while they dance the night through). He (pbuh) is also reported to have said that intoxicants would be widely used.

source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/prophecies_by_prophet_muhammad.htm

--------------------

In my opinion there are the greatest prophecies in the Hadiths that have been fulfilled. What do you think about ?

Offline good logic

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Re: Hadith: YES or NO?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2016, 06:57:54 PM »
Peace ZKAB90.

For the benefit of readers, i quote one of the replies to this thread in the other forum:

I think the question that needs to be answered in your mind is not "Hadith: YES or NO?".

The question is "Is Quran Enough: YES or NO?".

If YES, then discussion is over.

If NO, then the question, Why Not?

THEN if you come up with an argument why Quran is not enough, the question becomes is Sunni Hadith, Shia Hadith, Sufi Hadith, Salafi Hadith the source as they ALL have "some" truthful statements in them.

THEN also don't forget Bible, Torah, etc as they all have "some" truth in them.

Some notes to keep in mind:
1) Quran is not "open" to everyone. Hence why some people have to resort to other people explaining it for them.
Before approaching Quran belief must already be established and protection from Shaitan must be invoked.
2) Shaitan will come to you from all directions to "confuse" you.
3) If a meaning of a verse is unclear, then patience is the best option.

This makes sense to me.
GOD bless you.
Peace

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Re: Hadith: YES or NO?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 01:02:36 AM »
What do you think about Isaiah 60?
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Offline good logic

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Re: Hadith: YES or NO?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 10:29:32 AM »
Peace eliiah.

Thank you for the reminder. Actually Isaiah 60 is very relevant here also. GOD s words have been coming to different generations as a "light".
Thy light is come - On the word 'light,' see also Isaiah 58:8, Isaiah 58:10. The light here referred to is evidently that of the "Message from GOD"( God s word); and when Isaiah, the prophet/Messenger says  that light 'is come,' he throws himself into future times, and sees in vision the "future messenger/s as having already come, and as pouring the light of salvation on a darkened congregation and world .

And the glory of the Lord -  is the glorious protector and guide of His people. Like a sun over a darkened world.

GOD has been renewing His message many times. The last scripture is the latest of these series of renewals after being corrupted by the "idol worshippers" across the generations.

Is risen upon thee - As the sun rises. The word used here (זרח zârach) is commonly applied to the rising of the sun Genesis 32:31; Exodus 22:2; 2 Samuel 23:4; Psalm 104:22. The comparison of the message( word of GOD) to the sun rising upon a dark world is exceedingly beautiful, and often occurs in the Bible (compare Malachi 4:2; Luke 1:78, .)
Yes indeed. GOD sends His scripture as light to the world. GOD s word is the light ,not men s words.
For the benefit of the readers , I enclose ( new standard version) a translation of Isaiah 60 . Of course each can check their own version.
Arise O woman( Arise O congregation,any new congregation of the new messenger!!):

60  “Arise, O woman,+ shed light, for your light has come.
The glory of Jehovah shines on you.+
 2  For look! darkness will cover the earth
And thick gloom the nations;
But on you Jehovah will shine,
And on you his glory will be seen.
 3  Nations will go to your light+
And kings+ to your shining splendor.*
 4  Raise your eyes and look all around you!
They have all been assembled; they are coming to you.
From far away your sons keep coming,+
And your daughters being supported on the hip.+
 5  At that time you will see and become radiant,+
And your heart will throb and overflow,
Because the wealth of the sea will be directed to you;
The resources of the nations will come to you.+
 6  Throngs of camels will cover your land,*
Young male camels of Midʹi·an and Eʹphah.+
All those from Sheʹba—they will come;
Gold and frankincense they will carry.
They will proclaim the praises of Jehovah.+
 7  All the flocks of Keʹdar+ will be gathered to you.
The rams of Ne·baʹioth+ will serve you.
They will come on my altar with approval,+
And I will beautify my glorious house.*+
 8  Who are these that fly along like clouds,
Like doves to their dovecotes?*
 9  For in me the islands will hope;+
The ships of Tarʹshish are in the lead,*
To bring your sons from far away,+
Along with their silver and their gold,
To the name of Jehovah your God and to the Holy One of Israel,
For he will glorify* you.+
10  Foreigners will build your walls,
And their kings will minister to you,+
For in my indignation I struck you,
But in my favor* I will have mercy on you.+
11  Your gates will be kept open constantly;+
They will not be closed by day or by night,
To bring to you the resources of the nations,
And their kings will take the lead.+
12  For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish,
And the nations will be utterly devastated.+
13  To you the glory of Lebʹa·non will come,+
The juniper tree, the ash tree, and the cypress together,+
To beautify the place of my sanctuary;
I will glorify the place for my feet.+
14  The sons of those who oppressed you will come and bow down before you;
All those treating you disrespectfully must bow down at your feet,
And they will have to call you the city of Jehovah,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.+
15  Instead of your being abandoned and hated, with nobody passing through,+
I will make you a source of everlasting pride,
A cause for rejoicing throughout all generations.+
16  And you will actually drink the milk of nations,+
At the breast of kings you will nurse;+
And you will certainly know that I, Jehovah, am your Savior,
And the Powerful One of Jacob is your Repurchaser.+
17  Instead of the copper I will bring in gold,
And instead of the iron I will bring in silver,
Instead of the wood, copper,
And instead of the stones, iron;
And I will appoint peace as your overseers
And righteousness as your task assigners.+
18  No more will violence be heard in your land
Or destruction and ruin within your boundaries.+
And you will call your walls Salvation+ and your gates Praise.
19  For you the sun will no longer be a light by day,
Nor will the shining of the moon give you light,
For Jehovah will become to you an eternal light,+
And your God will be your beauty.+
20  No more will your sun set,
Nor will your moon wane,
For Jehovah will become for you an eternal light,+
And the days of your mourning will have ended.+
21  And all your people will be righteous;
They will possess the land forever.
They are the sprout that I planted,
The work of my hands,+ for me to be beautified.+
22  The little one will become a thousand
And the small one a mighty nation.
I myself, Jehovah, will speed it up in its own time.”

Yes, it applied to Jesus,the Prophet /Messenger,to Muhammed ,the Prophet /Messenger and to ....(other Messengers who remind with Qoran) when GOD decides on the right time to send any  Messengers.
GOD bless you.
Peace.