Resource(s) for Bible and Torah

[Student]

Salamun Alaykum,

Can someone (of course including brother Joseph) please point me to online Resource(s) for Bible and Torah (old and new testament) that I can read and do my comparative research?

Thank you
Student.

[Sardar Miyan]

Are you a Muslim ? There is no comparison between Quran & Taurat & Injeel as theme is the same except details. Please go to Google and find out.

[Student]

Bhai Sardar,

Do I need to me Muslim to get my query answered? Allah does not make any distinction between any of His sent down scriptures, who do I believe you or God? Respectfully, I do not like your knee-jerk response to my sincere query. Please forgive me if I say something that hurt your sentiment.

Brothers and sisters,

Does anyone have any suggestions for my request besides sending me to Google or Bing or Yahoo?

Thank you,
Student

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu alykum Student

From a facebook article from brother Josephs called:
The two guides The Quran and the Bible
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396647927139007?stream_ref=10

We actually have complete canonical texts / Bibles centuries BEFORE the revelation of the Quran. Therefore, we actually have a very good idea what the Bible (OT + NT) would have looked like to those in the 7th century.

The Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran), is considered one of the best texts in Greek of the New Testament along with the manuscript of the Codex Vaticanus. Alexandrian manuscripts are well known to scholars as representing some of the 'best' manuscripts. The Codex Sinaiticus can actually be accessed online for study [1].

Also the short excerpt (Comma Johanneum) which has been inserted later into the Biblical text to support the concept of Trinity is NOT present in this edition (1 John 5:7-8). There is no mention of "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (Verse 7) or "And there are three that bear witness in earth" (Verse . These are later additions into the text of Bibles many centuries later. [2]

Notwithstanding the possibility that certain scriptures were given more emphasis in certain churches / communities, it is the scriptures that were read by the community that the prophet directly came into contact with which remains pertinent from a Quran's perspective. This is what the Quran immediately addressed. This includes other beliefs that may not be 'scriptural' (canonical), but may have formed part of their beliefs such as the Jews asserting that Ezra was the son of God (9:30). One also sees familiarity of the 7th century People of the Book with Biblical Apocrypha such as the story regarding Jesus speaking in the cradle or the incident with the clay birds (5:110).

This underscores the Quran’s uniqueness in addressing, foremost, the beliefs of the People of the Book from the Arab communities and not those in another part of the world. However, it would also be intellectually implausible to accept the assertion that the learned of the People of the Book were not familiar with their canon texts in general.

Good modern Bibles and their commentary actually make note of the Biblical studies that have taken place and compare with early manuscripts noting the differences. 

I hope this provides some context to your query and please feel free to ask further questions on the QM Forum [3].

I hope that helps, God willing. 

Regards, 
Joseph

Insha'Allah that helps
With Peace and Blessings Insha'Allah 

[Hamzeh]

Salamu alykum

I forgot to mention the site you were looking for it was also shared by Joseph

REFERENCES:

[1] http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/copyright.aspx
[2] THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THE 'TRINITY'
http://quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm
[3] http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm

Salam

[Student]

Walekumus Salaam,
Brother Hamzeh,

Jazak Allah khair  Excuse me for being naive here, the codexsinaiticus.org carries only NT? (and is NT=Bible=Injeel and OT=Torah is that correct co-relation???)

Thank you so much!

[Duster]

Peace / Shalom Student.....please don't take this the wrong way but. .....if brother Hamzeh has provided you with such great information, the least you can do is visit the site and check for yourself to see if the OT is included or not???>>> esp when you say you are going to be doing research. If you clicked the link which you also point out like I clicked it. .....the site clearly tells you that the OT and NT are included!

http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/codex/

Re: OT = complete books of the Tanakh which includes the first five books of Prophet Moses
NT = Whatever the Christians were reading which will include the Injeel...

This may help too....

WHAT IS THE INJEEL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm

[Student]

Walekumus Salaam,
Duster,

Apologies for speaking too vaguely or in sheer excitement, too early. I did visit the site immediately and directly jumped to verify couple of verses and briefly browsed the "Find out more.." section. I also saw this:

On these parchment leaves is written around half of the Old Testament and Apocrypha (the Septuagint), the whole of the New Testament, and two early Christian texts not found in modern Bibles.

Again my apologies for any confusion, I'm trying to co-relate the words that are frequently used interchangeably  OT/NT/Bible/Torah/Tanakh. Thanks a lot for the clarification. Yes, indeed I read all the articles of QM marvelously researched and written by brother Joseph but my memory is least loyal to me  so please excuse me if I ask now or here and there some stupid (and repeated) questions that are answered elsewhere which the search engine fails to provide due to my lacking of appropriate keywords input.

So, is this safe statement to make about the site provided by brother Hamzeh (thank you again for the information sharing) that it covers OT/NT/Bible/Torah/Tanakh (all revealed scriptures of God, Books to the people)? again excuse me for being annoying.

Thank you
Student

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Student ...No problem at all....Re: your questions ... it carries the main Books you have highlighted yes but not many of the Books which they probably classed as being 'Apocryphal'. For example - the clay birds story mentioned in the Quran doesn't appear in the main NT I think, but it can be found in other Apocrypha. But you'll have to research how the NT Bible came to be ....

[Zack]

Hello Student,

Going back to your original request, an online resource..... I think the reference given does not exactly answer your question in that it is the site of an ancient manuscript of the first complete Bible.

The primary issue with New testament translations today of the original portions of manuscript is subtle misleading changes that support the creeds of much of the church since the 4th century, that being of God in 3 persons. However if you can be prepared to understand the people of the time of the Bible, Nabi Isa etc., used father, son etc in a symbolic sense.. not in a physical sense, that is the biggest misunderstanding averted. There is a translation and commentary which attempts to avoid these misunderstandings.. It is: www.revisedenglishversion.com . It has a commentary to help avoid confusion, although sometimes the commentary can have quite academic language. With this and some other guidelines, there are no issues with the Quran and the Bible. At the same time, Bible translations in general are getting closer to the original, because translators can't get away with deliberate major mistakes like they used to.

The sensitivities of Muslims to the Bible and CHristians to the Quran are simply traditions long after even the Hadith. The quran itself has no issues with the Bible, in fact encourages the approach of Student. (Surah 10:94).
Wasalam
Zack

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Zack Enjoying India ..... nice to see you on the forum....I used to really like your posts too>>>>>I have a question for you or bro Joseph may be able to help me a little ......you know how prophets are revered in Islam .... out of interest how to do you interpret the biblical passages dealing with prophet Lot's daughters 'allegedly'getting their father drunk on successive nights and having sex with him (Astagfurullah) and having children by him ...Also about the hint of transgression with Noah's son and his father and seeing his father naked etc and Noah knowing what he done to him hinting at unwanted homosexual act (Astafurullah) ?.... The Quran doesn't mention anything of this and thats why I maintain Quran is a guardian over the bible >>>> but how do you interpret these verses from the Bible??? I believe these narrative are in Genesis....

[Zack]

Hi Duster,

Thanks for your post. The presenting of Prophets, including the Prophet Muhammad,  as perfect or near perfect human beings from what I understand is somewhat of a later Islamic tradition. I say "somewhat" as the Qur'an, in preaching a message of repentance to Arabs, does not elaborate on the failings of the Prophets, but focus' on their obedience to preach repentance.

However throughout the Bible, it presents the life story of the prophets, this is different to the Quran. It presents the "Good, the Bad and the Ugly" of Prophets, that even they are fallen human beings, sometimes in a major sin, and throughout, genuine repentance brings them back to God. This is evident through the Psalms, which are often songs from the heart of David crying for mercy.

Therefore the purpose is not to promote sinful acts, but to emphasize mans sinfulness and Gods mercy. The specific instances you mention have a context.... In regards to Noah's nakedness...(Genesis 9) Shem's brothers are presented as the "villians", and Shem as the positive example. There is no indication in the text of homosexuality... that is a massive "reading into the text something that is not there." However Shem's brothers are disciplined for exposing and gossiping on another's error, whilst Shem is held as an example as he gave dignity to another, even though there was a problem, and didn't judge another for it, but instead was compassionate.

About Lots children, again it is not condoning the actions, but the context was they were some of the last of their people, distraught, and made it mistake...

A part of this is for people not to read the Quran as if its the BIble, and not to read the Bible as if it is the Quran. Hope this helps...
Wasalam
Zack

[Student]

Hello and Thanks Zack

[Duster]

Hi Duster,

Thanks for your post. The presenting of Prophets, including the Prophet Muhammad,  as perfect or near perfect human beings from what I understand is somewhat of a later Islamic tradition. I say "somewhat" as the Qur'an, in preaching a message of repentance to Arabs, does not elaborate on the failings of the Prophets, but focus' on their obedience to preach repentance.

However throughout the Bible, it presents the life story of the prophets, this is different to the Quran. It presents the "Good, the Bad and the Ugly" of Prophets, that even they are fallen human beings, sometimes in a major sin, and throughout, genuine repentance brings them back to God. This is evident through the Psalms, which are often songs from the heart of David crying for mercy.

Therefore the purpose is not to promote sinful acts, but to emphasize mans sinfulness and Gods mercy. The specific instances you mention have a context.... In regards to Noah's nakedness...(Genesis 9) Shem's brothers are presented as the "villians", and Shem as the positive example. There is no indication in the text of homosexuality... that is a massive "reading into the text something that is not there." However Shem's brothers are disciplined for exposing and gossiping on another's error, whilst Shem is held as an example as he gave dignity to another, even though there was a problem, and didn't judge another for it, but instead was compassionate.

About Lots children, again it is not condoning the actions, but the context was they were some of the last of their people, distraught, and made it mistake...

A part of this is for people not to read the Quran as if its the BIble, and not to read the Bible as if it is the Quran. Hope this helps...
Wasalam
Zack

Shalom / peace Zack ... Thank you so much and a very interesting perspective .... I seem to also find support for your interesting view in brother Joseph's article where he says:

"This point is actually very significant as it challenges the common Muslim thinking that:

(a) A prophet or messenger should be obeyed in total submission, without reflection, in every matter blindly and without any question whatsoever (which in itself stands in some tension with the advice given in verse 17:36 - "And do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these you will be questioned"). This level of 'bayt' (allegiance) has often given unwarranted licence to many false prophets and cult leaders to take full advantage of their vulnerable followers.
 
(b) That a prophet or messenger can never make errors of judgment which clearly is not the case as shown in the Quranic references below."

http://quransmessage.com/articles/obey%20the%20messenger%20limits%20FM3.htm

However, I don't know why .... but I still find the extent of what happened as narrated in the Bible ....a little difficult to accept .....