What was created first the heavens or earth 79:30

[yahya]

Assalam alikum I was just wondering is 79:30 saying that earth was created first because some people say that it only says that it was spread and not created because the arabic word is da ha not khalaqa created so it makes it sound like the earth was created before the universe  heaven etc because even if 79:30 means egg shipped it still makes it sound like the earth was created first because it would say we made the earth egged shaped or spread so it makes it sound like the earth was already in exsisted

[yahya]

Assalam alikum sorry to bother again I'm still confused by this are put them into different parts 1* 67:5 sounds like meteors come from stars witch they don't 2* 67;5 says lamps are in the lowest heaven now if this is talking about meteors as well meteors only come from our solar system 3* now if 67;5 is not talking about meteors but cosmic rays then we have a problem because verse 15:18 says we can see it but we can't see cosmic rays or solar flares from earth so if anyone can help with this I would really appreciate it and I know 67:5 doesn't mean the actual stars are used but from them jazzakkallah

[yahya]

Assalam alikum if someone could answer this I would be extremely grateful

[ilker]

salam yahya

I have little knowledge about this. Still i want to share it with you. May ALLAH (swt) guide us to the right understanding if we are wrong.

As far as i know the word "thumma" in 2:29 could also be used in the meaning of "moreover, besides". This word mostly indicates "order" but not always. Perhaps you'll find this link useful:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/the-meaning-of-thumma-and-yawm/

Besides this, I personally think words related to the skies, "sama, samawat" might refer not only to the higher dimensions and other skies in space but also to the atmosphere. ALLAH (swt) knows best.

Finally in 79:27 we see that ALLAH (swt) mentions "sky" first. In 79:30 we see "bada zalika" meaning "after this". So, that could mean the earth was created after the "sama".

Again, these are just my thoughts.

[yahya]

I agree with everything apart from the atmosphere bit because the stars are in the lowest heaven so they can't be in the lowest atmosphere also unless heavens mean different things in different verses like 41 : 12 means universe among 79:27-30 means atmosphere is that possible

[deleted]

Could all that you, and I see be in the "lowest Heaven"?

[ilker]

I agree with everything apart from the atmosphere bit because the stars are in the lowest heaven so they can't be in the lowest atmosphere also unless heavens mean different things in different verses like 41 : 12 means universe among 79:27-30 means atmosphere is that possible

salam

Of course. In the ayat about the stars being in the lowest heaven, outer space comes to mind. What i'm saying is, depending on the context, "sama or samawat" might also be referring to the atmosphere or the layers of the atmosphere. For example look at 2:19 and 2:22 (word is "sama", singular) is directly indicating atmosphere:

"Or [it is] like a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder and lightning. They put their fingers in their ears against the thunderclaps in dread of death. But Allah is encompassing of the disbelievers." (2:19)

"[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him]." (2:22)

The word "sama" is used in also 50:6 but ALLAH (swt) says "We adorned it."  So if you take "sama" as atmosphere then what to think about this ayah ? I mean, I think they are used interchangebly throughout the Quran.

"Have they not looked at the heaven above them - how We structured it and adorned it and [how] it has no rifts?" (50:6)

ALLAH (swt) knows best.

[yahya]

Thanks I agree and see your point thanks the only problem is if we interpret 79:27-30 to mean the atmosphere is the problem lies with 79:29 because doesn't that verse talk about the sun and moon and stars and planets being created because if it is then verse 79:27-28 has to be talking about the universe being created and turned into 7 heaven weather that mean several solar systems or several universes etc but that's not the point about the 7 heavens. Or have I understand that verse 79:29 wrong about sun planets stars etc but thanks for the other reply thanks

[ilker]

I can only tell you my understanding of 79:29. What I personally think is that in 79:29, ALLAH (swt) talks about "sama", the sky, from our perspective as humans. We usually use the word "sky" to describe "atmosphere and beyond" at the same time. We don't talk about the atmosphere and the universe beyond it, separately. We look up and we see the blue sky (atmosphere) and when it gets dark we see the stars, the sun, the moon (the outer space beyond the atmosphere).

"And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness." (79:29)

When we take "sky" as "outer universe" here in this ayah, then how should we explain "its night and its brightness" ? The universe is dark itself We, here on Earth, get bright mornings because of the atmosphere. Without it, we would experience mornings with a bright sun at the top but in a very dark sky. We wouldn't have any of those fantastic looking sunset/sunrise redness over the horizon. Take the Moon with no atmosphere for instance:



That's what i think of 79:29. Sorry if i confused you more by the way

[deleted]

So your description of the Heavens (or lower Heavens) would be "all of what you see when you look up"? I like it. Peace be upon you brothers. 

[Joseph Islam]

So your description of the Heavens (or lower Heavens) would be "all of what you see when you look up"? I like it. Peace be upon you brothers. 

As-salamu alaykum

This is a good discussion and thank you for all that have contributed.

From my humble point of view, that is my understanding too from a Quran's perspective. Verses clearly indicate anything at a distance, so when one looks up, the distance would start as soon as one looks up, atmosphere and into the cosmic space / heavens (Firmament).   

The main rendering of 'sama' is something raised, lofty, uplifted, exalted or elevated, or rose high. This context of 'distance' is also used laterally not just vertically in Arabic conversation. Lexicons refer to phrases such as 'Sama liya-shaks' implying the form, or figure, seen from a distance, rose of became raised, to me (i.e. to my view) so that I plainly distinguished it [1] Or 'sama -(l)-hilal' - The moon near the change rose.

Therefore, anything at a distance is the key interpretation and in the context of looking up, this will refer to the firmament (Sky or heavens / wider cosmic space) [2].

In the end, the context will derive the best meaning.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES

[1] LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 4, Page 1433
[2] Ibid

[yahya]

thanks im till confuse what you mean about 79:29 so does tis verse mean allah createing the sun moon planets etc or not that allah isant talking abouting creating anything here jazzakkallah but thanks with all the help its just a clarrifiction that's all does 79:29 mean creating something or it doesent mean creating anything but something else

[yahya]

also assalam alalikum joeasph islam do you mean you agree that 79:27-30 is talking about the amostphere and not the universe and that 41:12 and the lowest heaven in 67:5 is talking about the universe and not the amostphere is that correct brother

[yahya]

and also a clarification on 79:30 does that verse mean allah created the earth or does that verse mean allah spreaded the earth but did not create it because the earth was already created before but allah didn't spread it intill later is that what it means or that when allah spead the earth that autamaticlly means that at the same time spread means createing as well jazzakkallah thanks for all the help

[ilker]

alaykum salam

brother yahya i suggest you to keep calm and stay patient  perhaps we need more time to understand these ayat correctly inshaAllah. keep praying to ALLAH (swt) and ask for help. We all must !

When it's about the earth and the skies above, i think we have to always include 49:9-10-11 and 12 in our study! These are some fascinating ayat about the creation of the earth, atmosphere and the outer space (the sky above us).

"Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds.

And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.""

In 41:11 ALLAH (swt) talks about the sky above, while it was not yet ready and maybe not completed its final stage, but already there, existing ! While it was smoke ! Then in 41:12 He says He "ordained them seven heavens". This is quite fascinating

I just wanted to remind you of these also

ALLAH (swt) knows best. May He guide us to the right way of thinking and understanding His ayat.