Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...

[Joseph Islam]

Quran 3:35-36
[Mention, O Muhammad], when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. And I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her in You and [for] her descendants from Satan, the expelled [from the mercy of Allah ]."

There is a reason for Allah to mention any event in the Quran, this one IMHO seems to match the "intersex" explanation, specially when he says "And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered", like there is some denial on the fact that she is (only) a female,

Dear Mehdi,

As-salamu alaykum

The verse has a context. The prayer of the mother was to dedicate the child to God's service. As has been the case throughout antiquity and history, such religious leaders, great prophets' and messengers had in the main, arguably been men. However, it was a surprise that that despite the mother's prayer to dedicate her child to God's service alone (3:35), she was delivered a female (verse 3:36). This rather captures the thought of the day (given the mother's surprise) and still at present of 'religious leadership'.

Rather, God disassociated ultimate piety being associated with any gender. With respect and in my humble view, there is little to no support for your view and at best, leans towards confirmation bias.

THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF PROPHET JESUS (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/virgin-birth%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph

[Nura]

Salam Mehdi

I am sorry but I do not see eye to with you on this topic and I have multiple reasons to back me up. 

3:33

Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Nuh, and (the) family (of) Ibrahim and (the) family (of) Imran over the worlds.

3:34
Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah (is) All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

3:35
When [she] said (the) wife (of) Imran, "My Lord! Indeed, I vowed to You what (is) in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me. Indeed, You, You (are) the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

3:36
Then when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, indeed I (have) delivered [her] a female." And Allah knows better [of] what she delivered, and is not the male like the female. "And that I (have) named her Maryam and that I seek refuge for her in You and her offspring from the Shaitaan the rejected."

3:37
So accepted her, her Lord with acceptance good, and reared her - a rearing good, and put her in (the) care (of) Zakariya. Whenever entered Zakariya in her [the] prayer chamber he found with her provision. He said, "O Maryam! From where for you (is) this?" She said, "This (is) from Allah. Indeed, Allah gives provision (to) whom He wills without measure."

With all due respect, we should let the Quran speak and do all that we can to not do anything to conform the verses to suit our worldview.

There is absolutely nothing in the verses above suggesting Mary was anything but a woman. Mary belonged to the family of Imran and God informed us that He chose the family of Imran and some of their descendants for His purpose. Many of the messengers and prophets were from the family of Imran and God's chosen members of this family were all males. Only male descendents were chosen to serve God's purpose. Mary's mother only prayed so that she could have a son and that son could also be of service to God. As per God's rule only males were chosen as messengers and prophets, so understandably Mary's mother became disappointed because up until that time only males from her family were chosen as God's special people. So she was simply disappointed. But God informs us that eventhough Mary's mother was sad that her female offspring won't be used by God in service like that as a male offspring but Allah accepted her baby and eventhough Mary was a female, God had plans for her. God chose Mary over all females. This is the message of verses 3:35 -3:36

By 'My lord I had delivered.....' She was just stating a fact that females were not traditionally chosen as God's agents and Mary's mother was dissapointed.
And by' God knew what she had delivered...' It is a hint that eventhough Mary's mother did not know at that time who she just gave birth to, but God knew who Mary was and she was not like any other woman and she had a purpose to serve in God's plan. A purpose no woman has ever served till now . Mary was special that is what is hinted here. Gender is not of importance in these verses (atleast from God's point of view, He did not mind that Mary was a girl) . The  verses are talking about how a female is not traditionally God's chosen agent.

There is no denial that Mary was a female, this is confirmation bias on your part sorry to say.

Moreover, throughout the Bible, Mary is referred to as a woman. We have an entire surah dedicated to Mary and a lot of verses where Allah clarifies religious concepts that have become unclear in the Bible. Never has Mary been thought of or referred to as anything than a woman in the Bible and the Quran. If Mary was not a woman, than God would have corrected our understanding in the Quran. God has corrected a lot of misunderstandings/misreadings in the Bible in the Quran.

Again 42:49-50, says God decides who He gives only sons or only daughters or a bunch of kids both male children and female children. And He choses to make some people childless. This is not a reference to intersex children. This verse was never understood like that and is still not.

Direct word for word translation does not allow us to have any doubt that this is again a confirmation bias on your part.

42:49
To Allah (belongs the) dominion (of) the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He grants to whom He wills females, and He grants to whom He wills [the] males.
42:50
Or He grants them males and females; and He makes whom He wills barren. Indeed, He (is) All-Knower, All-Powerful.

I sincerely hope in the future we all will let the Quran speak rather than twist its words to fit a certain worldview.

[Nura]

Salam Brother Joseph

I was writing my reply when u posted ur reply. Sorry, if it was disrespectful. If, deemed correct the moderators can remove my post. Your answer is concise , to the point and not to mention much shorter than mine. I didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.

[Mehdi]

Dear Nura and Joseph,

Thank you for your view/clarification,

I must admit, I have never seen this subject from the perspective you have presented, which seems to me even clearer,

I do feel that at no time I have tried to "twist" the word of the Quran, and I ask Allah forgiveness If I did so (or let you feel that I did).

The explanation of "Intersex" as presented seemed plausible from my point of view, it's as simple as that.

With Peace,
Mehdi

[Amira]

I'm sorry, but it seems like saying Mary was intersex is a denial of the miracle. There's nothing in the Quran that explicitly supports this, so you're basically introducing a doctrine and trying to make the Quran confirm it. That's not going to work out well. Of course none of us are trying to insult her, and I'm not saying it's an insult, but there is no explicit evidence for the idea.

[Joseph Islam]

Salam Brother Joseph

I was writing my reply when u posted ur reply. Sorry, if it was disrespectful. If, deemed correct the moderators can remove my post. Your answer is concise , to the point and not to mention much shorter than mine. I didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.

Please do not apologise my dear sister. Your response was neither disrespectful nor out of turn. Rather, I was pleased to read another point of view affirming my own humble perspective, argued from the Quran.

May you be in peace always, God willing.

As-salamu alaykum

Your brother in faith,
Joseph

PS: Thank you all that have contributed to the thread. 

[Wakas]

peace all,

Arguably, confirmation bias is present in both sides of this argument.

Firstly, intersex is a possibility, as per Quran.

Secondly, looking into it further it seems "muharraran" (3:35) may not mean "dedicated" as commonly translated, and could well mean "liberated/freeborn".

And lastly the phrase "AAlamu bima / God knows better/best with what X..." is commonly used in a context where the people might think/experience one thing or do not know something but God knows the truth which frequently does not match what the people think/experience. I haven't studied every occurrence, but seems to allow for the possibility of intersex. To rule this possibility out or claim there is zero evidence for this, would be a lean towards confirmation bias.

[Nura]

Salam Wakas and everyone

19:16

Waothkur fee alkitabi maryama ithi intabathat min ahliha makanan

Please see the Arabic Quran, here 'intabahat' is translated as 'she withdrew'. In the Arabic lanquage a girl is called unta/inta, the roots for the words are same . Please check a lexicon for further clarification/verification.

19:17
Faittakhathat min doonihim hijaban faarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan

Here 'Faittakhathat' is translated as 'then she took'. The Arabic word for girl here is 'fattah'. Please check lexicon.

These are commonly known Arabic words for a female and can be easily verified. Both have been used to refer to Mary. I would much rather take the Quran's word for Mary's gender, clearly female, rather than a theory with no explicit proof from the Quran.The Quran uses Arabic words that mean a female/woman when it talks about Mary.

I would like to draw attention to surah 19 where the birth of Jesus is not the only miracle birth being discussed. The birth of Yahya to Zachariya and his barren wife is also a miracle. The birth of a child to an old man and a barren woman without scientific intervention is also a miracle that science cannot explain. There was no IVF during those times. Without external help and modern medical help such a pregnancy during those times (and even today) was unthinkable and a miracle. The Quran is replete with examples of miracle births. Jesus was not the only miracle child. Yahya, Jesus, Adam are people whose births are talked about as miracles and were only possible because of not-so-normal-divine interventions. I have provided explanations for my beliefs and this is probably my last post on this topic.

[Duster]

peace all,

Arguably, confirmation bias is present in both sides of this argument.

Firstly, intersex is a possibility, as per Quran.

Shalom / peace.  Where does it say that intersex is possible in the Quran and a human can self impregnate and create a new life?

So we have:

1. Miracles happening in the past - Quran confirms this
2. Miracles stopped by God 》》
3. Miracle of virgin birth - Confirmed by both Quran and Bible - the Quran doesn't say Bible is wrong in this issue

OR

1. Rare or impossible occurence of a human with two functional sexes self impregnating 》》》
2. Denial of a miracle
3. Denial of a well known BIble story which the Quran supports without challenging it ......》》

Which pov has most probability of correctness and which is confirmation bias?

[Wakas]

Wikipedia:
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.


Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it.
These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
[Al Quran, 39:18]

[Nura]

Salam Wakas

Can u comment about why the Quran uses the Arabic words for women to refer to Mary? The Quran mentions effeminate men. Men with no desire for women. If Mary was not a female, God could have used other words to describe her. The Quran is aware of different genders and the fluidity of sexuality and multiplicity of gender. Why words that stand for female? Why do u not want to believe the Quran especially when it says she was a woman? U have provided no explicit evidence from the Quran and from ur own admission u have not read all the verses regarding Mary! Why prefer a theory more? U seem to suggest the Quran is ambiguous about Mary's gender. This is not at all true. There is no ambiguity and the Quran speaks with certainty when it uses the Arabic words for women. If the Quran and Bible was silent about Mary's gender, I would have considered this theory of yours but the Quran  and Bible both are not ambiguous nor are they silent regarding this matter!

I would appreciate it if you did not make personal comments about our intentions and intelligence by quoting verses from the Quran and insinuating that we have an agenda. With respect we have given explicit proofs about our beliefs and u have provided zero explicit evidence. Moreover, u admitted u have not studied all the relevant verses. Don't you think you should study all of them before making such a claim about a well established Quranic and Biblical belief?

[Nura]

Sorry Wakas , I misunderstood your previous post to mean you have not read all the verses regarding Mary, I reread ur post and got that u meant u haven't read/scrutinised all the occurences of the Arabic phrase u mentioned. Extremely sorry.  It was wrong of me to say that u haven't studied all the verses related to Mary. But can u please answer my other qustions directed to you.

[Duster]

Wikipedia:
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.


Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it.
These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
[Al Quran, 39:18]

Shalom / peace. Thanks for the wikipedia reference, but I know what the phrase meant ...... However, doesn't change my position ... thanks anyway ....

[Wakas]

peace Nura,

I do not wish to enter into a lengthy discussion, but I will reply as you have asked and I will assume you are sincere in your quest for the truth.

Salam Wakas

Can u comment about why the Quran uses the Arabic words for women to refer to Mary?

We are already told in Quran that mary has the appearance of a female when she was born. Assuming you have read up on intersex, you will know they can appear female on the outside also. And if you have read up on it you will know that an intersex self-fertilisation is highly improbable but theoretically possible, thus would still qualify as a "virgin birth" / "miracle", which negates some of the points made in this thread.
In Arabic, like other languages, gender is assigned to objects, regardless, and it does not necessarily mean that object is male/female. If you know of a gender-neutral suffix/pronoun in Arabic that could have been used in the examples you gave then feel free to share.
Thus, I have little issue with the Quran referring to mary as female, and even if I did, I wouldn't consider this enough evidence to rule out the possibility of intersex.

Now that I have replied to your request. Here is mine for you - please highlight all examples of unevidenced claims, assumptions and confirmation bias that you have made in your posts in this thread. I count at least 5.

 

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

Dear brother Wakas

From reading this post and others i am assuming from your perspective that intersex is something that happens in humans although it is very very rare?

Or at least from your perspective that Marry was a intersex and your saying that there is other humans who have this condition and also became pregnant without the interference of another human being?

Can you please give me a reference where an intersex human delivered a child on its own?

I apologize if I am assuming your views incorrectly

Salam