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Offline Student

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Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« on: October 28, 2016, 12:58:19 PM »
Salaam,
Sir Joseph,

Is this correct translation of the of Genesis Chapter 1, verse 27 from original Hebrew? And if so what is the accurate interpretation:

27 And God created the man in his own image.
In the image of God he created him.


This has been repeated few more times in the first few chapters I've read so far.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline wanderer

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2016, 01:21:42 PM »
Hi Student, if you have any questions about the Bible specifically (not Islam), there are many other places on the Internet where you can find answers. As to the particular question you just asked, this is a very famous quote, and you can find much writing devoted to it.
Regards,
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Student

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2016, 01:45:25 PM »
Thanks Wanderer,  I'm here and member of this forum just because of Sir Joseph's ardent, long and painstaking research work and also because of his expertise in all previous scriptures.

If you pay close attention to all the (wonderfully consistent) research work on this website you wouldn't have separated Bible and Islam  :) I don't, thanks to Sir Joseph and he bring immense experience to connect all the scriptures seamlessly!

That's exactly why this is a question specifically directed to Sir Joseph but anyone else who's familiar with and have read the OT are most welcome to present their opinion (As a bonus and blessing  I find many brothers and sisters on this forum beside Sir Joseph).

Hope you understand.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline wanderer

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 01:51:13 PM »
My apologies Student I wrote my previous comment without much thought. I already reported it to the moderates even before I saw your new message.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Student

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2016, 03:53:09 PM »
No worries, you didn't hurt my feelings no apologies needed absolutely - peace!  :D
Hope I get lucky with Sir's attention, inshallah :)
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2016, 11:46:01 PM »
Asalamu Alykum

Ive heard somewhere that Genesis 1:27 has also been understood not in a bodily image but one of attributes like compassion, mercy, love, etc.

However if the verse is understood that God created man in His image physically, then it would be hard to accept as it sheds tension on the following verses.

6:103 Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.

112:4 And there is none like unto Him.


No human can imagine or dream of who the Almighty is other than He is the Most Merciful, Forgiver, Most Compassionate, Most All Powerful etc .


Hope that helps in any way Insha'Allah

Salam

Offline Student

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 03:20:20 AM »
Walekas salaam,

Thanks Br. Hamzeh. Like I said this verse is repeated twice at least and there are within first 14 chapters quite a few vivid description of God interacting with Adam, Eve and Ibrahim AS which cannot be understood outside our 5 senses:

Gen 3:8   They heard the sound of Yahweh God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Yahweh God among the trees of the garden

Would wait for Sir Joseph's kind clarification.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2016, 10:39:27 AM »
Salamu alykum

Your welcome brother.

Just a side note. Its not unusal that the Bible contains narratives that the Quran would consider unacceptable and inappropriate.

One must keep in mind that the Quran does support that the Bible has been tampered with. So its not all the time that dubious stories can be sweetened up with explanations. One must also have to admit that the dubious stories that go against the Quran are  fabrications otherwise would have to prove them correct by going back to the original languages and see if there is any errors in the translations.

Nevertheless the Quran still does support that guidance is extractable.

Those are some other humble sentiments in the mean time.

Peace  :)

Offline wanderer

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2016, 10:49:57 AM »
I would also like to add that the Bible, at time, presents a strangely anthropomorphized view of God that would be considered blasphemous from an Islamic perspective. See the narrative of Jacob wrestling with God for an example.
These are undoubtedly falsifications in His scripture, as Brother Hamzeh has pointed out.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2016, 06:21:31 PM »
Dear Student,

As-salamu alaykum

With all due respect dear brother, I will not be able to dedicate much time at the moment to provide detail responses to Bible specific questions and follow-ups. There are a plethora of Quranic queries / areas of work that I still have to address / pursue and would therefore, not be able to dedicate time on other areas of my work, including the Ahadith corpus.

Also, as I trust that you will appreciate, this is not a Bible study forum per se, but a Quran forum, albeit I appreciate that Biblical related questions will arise worth exploring, particularly from a Quran reconciliation perspective.

However, learned brothers and sisters are free to discuss Biblical related topics (hence the dedicated board), as I know some already have, particularly brother Zack who I know has contributed much valued sentiments hitherto in this area.

Finally, please also kindly appreciate the value of seeking input from the learned of the People of the Book too. The internet is replete with sources of information, discourses and well established academia.

There is also more than an implied hint that is the approach God conferred on the Prophet himself. If he was in doubt, he was asked to reach out to the People of the Book regarding their scriptures to ratify. If this approach was good for the prophet, then it should certainly be good for believers. This one can argue, is indeed a Quranic perspective.

016.043
“And before you also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if you do not know, ask of those who possess the Message
 
021.007-8
“Before you, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If you do not know, ask of those who possess the Message. Nor did We give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they exempt from death”


Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLE:

[1] ASK THOSE THAT HAVE KNOWLEDGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ask%20one%20with%20knowledge%20FM3.htm

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Zack

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2016, 10:58:04 PM »
Hello Student,

Below is a quote from the Commentary I have mentioned before from http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/ (I don't agree with everything there, but having a "Tauhid" viewpoint makes it very useful). The following explains yours question.....

The immediately preceding context of Genesis 1 is God making the animals, which are not in the image of God. So being in the image of God involves things that are unique to mankind and different from the animals. Furthermore, being in the image of God is not something that we humans “have,” it is something that we humans “are.” We are in the image of God because of the unique way God made us as humans distinct from animals. Thus, our being in the image of God is having many of the same qualities that God has, and this would include things like the desire and self-awareness to love and be loved, the desire to be part of a family, a sense of what is moral or godly, the ability to think abstractly, the desire to create, the ability to communicate at a very advanced and abstract level, and the capacity to worship God.

There are some solid biblical reasons why mankind does not have to have holy spirit to be in the image of God. One is that after the Flood, which was more than 1600 years after Adam and Eve were created and long after the Fall, mankind was still said to be in the image of God (Gen. 9:6). Thus even in our fallen state, mankind is still in the image of God, and that is the reason why God says murder is wrong and why a murderer must be punished. To get the full impact of what God says about mankind in Genesis 9:6, we must note that in the context God had been talking about killing and eating animals. Animals were killed for their meat and for their skin, and this was acceptable, but God says it is not acceptable to kill a human being because, “in the image of God has God made mankind” (NIV). Thus, humans, in their fallen state without holy spirit, still bear the image of God.


Also mentioned the following in another post that is good to remember in approaching the Bible....

a)   A lot of misinterpretation happens from not understanding how language is used in another culture. This is how “son of God” (or even man referred to as “god”) evolved from a Hebrew understanding to a Greek understanding of the Trinity. This is a part of the issue in reading such verses.
b)   We need to place the verse in context of “the bigger picture.” That is, the constraints of the Torah. The same God of the Qur’an is the God of the Torah. We need to be careful in interpreting individual verses contrary to these constraints.

Anyway I will try to find a good link / resource for this,

Wasalam
Zack

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2016, 02:25:55 AM »
Asalamu Alykum brother Zack.

Thank you so much for your response.

I see your point on this
Quote
The easiest way to get a warped interpretation on the Old Testament is to ask a Muslim what it means! In fact a Christian will often respond with their own theological glasses as well. The same goes for the Christians teaching Christians about Islam....likely in error.

I can see how frustrating it is for some scholars of the People of the Book how other people misinterpret passages they have studied and understood. I sometimes get irritated when I hear Quranic passages get misinterpreted. Thank you for having patients with us.

To be honest I started reading the OT and I was shocked at some narratives, but I was also so emotional and amazed at the rest. I did not know how to view the OT. I tried to keep a positive attitude even when I was disturbed by some passages and said to myself 'its my understand that is at fault.'

I tried my best to view the stories that "seemed" inappropriate to me in a thought that was best. Or I put them on the side and said to myself ' ok there needs to be a explanation to this, because the way I understand it is quite shocking, so ill search for some answers after.'

For example as I'm sure you have heard it before from many the story of Noah and his daughters I also thought about, maybe the laws to him and his people were different than what was given to Moses and the rest of the nations after him. I tried to think about how would one think about Adam and his offspring and their marriages, like the first humans. It seems like they must of had been permitted to marry from each other. This in todays lenses would seen indeed inappropriate and also unlawful from both the Quran and the Bible.

At the same time, it did seem from the daughters perspective that they needed to hide this act from their father by giving him drink to intoxicate him. Therefor it seemed wrong even from the daughters perspective.

As I read to my best of understanding I felt that there was some narratives that differed from a Quranic perspective as well. For example, Harun was the cause of the Children of Israel worshipping the cow. Again I am possibly understand the OT wrong. Where from a Quranic perspective it seems to correct this understanding that Harun was not to blame. There does however seem from a Quranic perspective that Moses at first glance coming back to his people thought that it was Harun by grabbing him by his beard/head but Harun does clarify that he had nothing to do with the wrong doing people 7:150. Again I did not spend to much time in researching.

I've also noticed many other narratives that seems to have minor differences with the Quran, again this could be my shortcoming in understand both scriptures the Quran and the Bible.

My previous comment I may of written to quickly without putting to much thought into it, and I apologize for that.

As I see Masha'Allah you are also quite familiar with the Quran as well brother Zack, do you see that there is narratives in the Bible that differ from the Quran's point of view? If so isn't it safe to say they are fabrications?

I think it would be a great idea that scholars from both the Quran and the Bible should interact more and clarify the issues. As I for one do not like to view parts of the Bible as dubious stories if there is no warrant to , but if they are fabricated then I think it would be helpful to know which are and which are not to all the people of the scriptures, Jews, Christians, and Muslims. This would generally be a positive thing.


Thank you again for your kind comments brother

Salamu alykum  :)






Offline wanderer

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2016, 02:49:30 AM »
I don't understand why so many on this forum are trying to reconcile Biblical and Quranic inerrancy. THERE ARE clear differences between the two. I for one view the account of Lot and his daughters as a shameful blasphemy against a noble prophet of God. When reading bible (or Hadith) the Quran MUST remain the ultimate criterion (furqan).
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2016, 05:22:46 AM »
Asalamu Alykum brother Wanderer

My comments were directed at brother Zack because I had read many of his posts before and from what I gathered from his sentiments is that the Bible and the Quran do not necessarily contradict each other but should be viewed differently.

It seems like when people had concerns about narratives in the Bible he had defended the interpretation and did not conclusively say that there is differences in stories or that there seems to be fabrications. He had pointed out that the Bible speaks of the weakness and sins of the prophets and the expressions and language seem to not be understood by the people who read the Quran. Does he have a valid point? Maybe to a limit, but some narratives seem a little disturbing so obviously they need to be explained.

Whats more important to me is that if there is differences in clear stories between the Quran and the Bible, then one can for sure admit that there is fabricated verses in the Bible. If this is accomplished then one can also approach the Bible with a caution and a consciousness of what seems to be fabricated. This is my concern. I also would like to be very conscious of not accusing the present day Bible of things I have little knowledge about although at first glance may seem hard to accept. I mean even from the Quran if one reads certain passages without their context there seems to be questions that arise. This is not the Quran's fault but the fault of one who is reading and not understanding the Quran by just reading verses divorced from their context.

So I would like to see from his point of view if he does recall any differences and if so(which to my limited knowledge of the previous scripture I do see there is) does it tantamount to fabrications or not? And if not then we are definitely not reading the previous scriptures correctly or having an interpretation that is not correct. And therefor would like to change my technique on reading the Bible.

I am not dismissing the later because I have seen misinterpretations in the english Quran many times. So i do not doubt that this may also has happened to the Bible. God knows best.

We do know the Quran speaks highly of the previous Scriptures, as of course the truth contained in them is indeed from God also.

If the Quran cannot be used to determine the truth contained in the Bible then one starts to assume or question would it be possible the Bible that was in the hands of the People of the Book in the time of prophet Muhammad could be different than what we have today? This is also a question that should be considered if one was to approach the Bible without using the Quran as a guard(muhayymin). The only reason I may question this is just because of how highly it the Quran speaks about the Bible and at the same time the differences that I see with the Quran otherwise I would have no reason to accuse any tampering.

On the other hand again the Quran does seem to say that there has been falsely attributed sayings in the name of God however God has passed over much of what has been attributed. So therefor accept the differences and approach the Bible with a caution and read them in light of the Quran. Which is the guard over them. This view is most what seems more plausible to me.


Which at times I only feel that brother Zack does not view it this way. I could be wrong in my assumption and forgive me if I have said anything in error brother. Much appreciation to all your efforts brother Zack and always a pleasure to read your comments.

May God bless you all.

Salam :)

Offline wanderer

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Re: Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2016, 06:10:53 AM »
But the Quran clearly says the Bible was corrupted. And there Are differences between their various narratives-- Some extremely serious. I think when the Quran speaks so highly of the character of Lot, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a follower of the Quran to accept such tales in his name. I agree misreading the text can be a problem, and I agree the Bible contains more of God's words than men's words, but this does not amount to infallibility, or the idea that we have to accept such smears on the impeccable character of God's chosen prophets.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)