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Offline good logic

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2016, 04:08:02 PM »
Peace Student.

I believe you are doing the right thing. You are finding out for yourself by yourself while navigating / "choosing what is best" among what is out there.The studying has to be done of all what is being claimed as scriptures out there.

There is no  other way or  short cut.

GOD on the other hand has not left us without answers. We are so lucky,the generations that came after Qoran. Jews, Christians, Muslims...etc GOD is addressing -The Jews and Christians-and all "People of the book" Anyone who  claims they have a scripture from GOD:

Yes indeed  a message/scripture/guide/....To the Jews and Christians and Muslims and....

5:15
O people of the scripture, our messenger( The Qoran) has come to you to proclaim for you many things you have concealed in the scripture, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture ( The Qoran).
يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ مُبينٌ
5:16
With it( The Qoran), God guides those who seek His approval. He guides them to the paths of peace, leads them out of darkness into the light by His leave, and guides them in a straight path.
يَهدى بِهِ اللَّهُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ رِضوٰنَهُ سُبُلَ السَّلٰمِ وَيُخرِجُهُم مِنَ الظُّلُمٰتِ إِلَى النّورِ بِإِذنِهِ وَيَهديهِم إِلىٰ صِرٰطٍ مُستَقيمٍ

Qoran confirms all, details all,answers all the questions that one needs to ask about the "one religion" / the deen/message...
"Inna Hada Al-Qoran Yakussu Ala Beni Israeel Akthar Alladi Hum Feehi Yakhtalifoon"
 GOD bless you.
Peace
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2016, 05:00:55 PM »
Qoran confirms all, details all,answers all the questions that one needs to ask about the "one religion" / the deen/message...
"Inna Hada Al-Qoran Yakussu Ala Beni Israeel Akthar Alladi Hum Feehi Yakhtalifoon"
 GOD bless you.
Peace

Shalom / peace GL .....

Who is Mikael mentioned in the Quran in 2:98?

Offline Nura

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2016, 05:13:16 PM »
Salam Brother Student

Quote
I would expound knowingly=come in contact (whenever/wherever), unknowingly=news never reached them - hope you agree?

Yes I agree, but I would like to add that 'unknowingly' would also include people who are genuinely not convinced of the veracity of the Quran. These people are not doing this out of malice, their hearts are not simply convinced yet.


Quote
I would humbly argue, to these awesome people (if) God is sending them back to Books (it is) with confident not so much as with discernment, simply because

God sends them back to their books with a tool to discern between truth and falsehood, the Quran. God tells us in the Quran that the plurality in shariah is a part of His plan for us. This is God's decision, we have our shariah in the Quran, they have theirs in their books. This is very evident in the Arabic Quran. God is the one sending them back to their books with a verification tool, they are expected to go back to their beliefs. It is not about what they would want. Wants and desires have no place, when God has spoken. What God expects and wants is of utmost importance.

Quote
1. These people after having shaken to the core by just listening the recitation of few verses whose hearts have been deeply moved and penetrated with pure light are hardly imagined/expected to go back to anything else and anything less rather they develop a deep burning and intense desire to know and hear more


Brother, the parts of their books, that are confirmed is what makes them see the truth in ours. Their eyes overflow because they know that the Quran is also from the same God. Previous books and the truth in them is also capable of bringing tears to a believer's eyes and make them awestruck. This is a fact. There are multiple, beautiful verses in the Torah which are confirmed by the Quran, that is awe-inspiring. They are asked to read the Quran and then use it to discern the material found in their books. They would have to go back, because the Quran simply asks them to go back.

In fact, the Quran actually, reprimanded a few of them when they came to the Prophet Muhammad for law. God has clearly then said, that the Torah is in front of them, therein is the command of God. Why are they visiting the Prophet? These are unbelievers.
God expects them to not abandon their books. They are to consider their books with the help of the Quran.

If, still one of them wants to only follow the Quran, then it is their choice. I cannot say anything about this. But, the Quran does say that salvation is open to anyone who believes in one God, Judgement Day, and does good deeds. Ultimately, all of us will return to Him and He will judge.

Quote
2. And so when they come across 2:38, and all of 6236 verses they feel not out of choice but gladly embrace the pure and pristine word of God, the Quran and its Law

It is not about feelings and wants brother, a lot of people feel compelled to sin, we cannot get away by saying we felt like doing something. It is all about what God wants. At the end of the day the choice is theirs, but the Quran expects them to follow their own shariah. This is what God is telling them to do. If, they want to follow the Quran only, it is their choice, one they would have to justify to God as well.

It is good that you are doing your own research and reading the scriptures yourself brother. May God guide us all to the straight path.

God Bless :)
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline good logic

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2016, 06:46:45 PM »
Peace Duster.
If you are asking me where you find information about Michael in the scriptures then try here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

If you are asking my opinion or my understanding then Michael like Gabriel ,Angels... are GOD s  creation that do their duty for Him,like we should.

Other than that we are not given any details apart from what is in the scriptures. Therefore we only require details about our salvation hence what I said quote:
Qoran confirms all, details all,answers all the questions that one needs to ask about the "one religion" / the deen/message...
"Inna Hada Al-Qoran Yakussu Ala Beni Israeel Akthar Alladi Hum Feehi Yakhtalifoon"

Hence what we do not require to know in detail as part of the trial-i.e it is not required for our salvation- is not given to us.
So have a look at the sources and conclude your understanding from them as you are entitled to do so.

If you are implying Qoran refer us to the bible for more detail, then I disagree with you,Qoran is fully detailed..
 Qoran advises us to get ",the best from all sources".
Thank you for the query.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2016, 06:24:49 PM »
Shalom / peace GL...

In my view ... you are still not clear  ...

So you say;

"Qoran confirms all, details all,answers all the questions that one needs to ask about the "one religion" / the deen/message..."

Look at what I highlighted bold.

Now the Quran says:

"Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers." - 2.98

>>>Now Gabriel is mentioned in the Quran and we can understand a bit about Gabriel.....However Michael is only mentioned once. So .... I'm asking the question regarding the 'deen / message' as you so put it ....... What or who is Michael? Is he a person, place, angel, spirit ...who and who is being an enemy to him or it?

.....please don't refer me to Wikipedia ... wikipedia is not a scripture! ....

You say "So have a look at the sources and conclude your understanding from them as you are entitled to do so."

So don't you think the Quran is expecting the people who come in contact with the Quran to check some of their stories by the Bible????

Offline Zack

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2016, 07:24:45 PM »
Shalom / peace GL...

In my view ... you are still not clear  ...

So you say;

"Qoran confirms all, details all,answers all the questions that one needs to ask about the "one religion" / the deen/message..."

Look at what I highlighted bold.

Now the Quran says:

"Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers." - 2.98

>>>Now Gabriel is mentioned in the Quran and we can understand a bit about Gabriel.....However Michael is only mentioned once. So .... I'm asking the question regarding the 'deen / message' as you so put it ....... What or who is Michael? Is he a person, place, angel, spirit ...who and who is being an enemy to him or it?

.....please don't refer me to Wikipedia ... wikipedia is not a scripture! ....

You say "So have a look at the sources and conclude your understanding from them as you are entitled to do so."

So don't you think the Quran is expecting the people who come in contact with the Quran to check some of their stories by the Bible????

Hi Duster,

This relates to the post I put a few days ago....   http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2173.msg11192#msg11192

The Qur'an, speaks to it's audience, including those in Mecca, with the understanding that they already know the Bible and its stories, including belief in the Angels etc. (ie. not the Jalhilayah myth) If the Qur'an is speaking to a pagan audience who never knew any better, it is totally harsh spirited, unfair and mean. However the strong rebuking language of the Qur'an is used for people who should have known better, and very much connected to the belief of Muhammad, but have deviated from truth. The stronger the language, the closer the connection is to the audience.

Wasalam
Zack


Offline good logic

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2016, 04:31:54 AM »
Peace Duster.
You say ,quote:
So don't you think the Quran is expecting the people who come in contact with the Quran to check some of their stories by the Bible????

GOD is addressing "Beni  Israeel" in 2:98. They are expected to know. To the rest it is irrelevant. Knowing about Michael has nothing to do with the Deen/message.
You already know ,from our last discussion, that I have clarified my understanding about the bible. It contains both GOD s words and men s words.Hence GOD is expecting them to know from "his words/ scripture" to them.i.e Torah.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2016, 07:42:12 PM »
Dear All,

As-salamu alaykum

A good discussion.

In any interpretation, it is my humble view that we must never underestimate the importance, function, emphasis the Quran places on the Scriptures of old that were present amongst the People of the Book during the Quran's revelation.

It is also noteworthy that despite the argument that certain scriptures were given more emphasis amongst certain communities of worshippers amongst the People of the Book, there is absolutely no doubt that the canonisation in the main, of the Biblical Scriptures were well in place before the revelation of the Quran.

We certainly have complete 'Bibles' before the revelation of the Quran. Therefore, the question will always remain, what were the Quran's audience from the People of the Book reading? Furthermore, if they were expected to discern truth from what was with them (as I understand has been inferred by at least one forum member, implying a mix of God's words and man), how were they meant to do so?

032:023
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"
 
Please kindly note the Arabic word 'liqai' (the 'hi' simply being a pronoun) comes from the root word 'Lam-Qaf-Ya' which means to encounter, meet, see, come across, or see face to face. Many commentators unduly make use of the word 'receive' to translate 'liqai' when it is clear that the usage of this word within the Quran is specific to 'encounter' or come across 'face to face'.

Also, from a 'belief' perspective, the Quran claims to be in the word of God. Therefore, the usual argument that follows, 'older' writings / scriptures are closer to the actual revelation and hence truth, does not arguably follow in this case. This is the usual argument that would be potentially advanced by a non-believing historian. In the Quran's case, the latest revelation would be the most closest to the source of truth as it is revealed by a timeless 'God'.

In a crude example, if the works of an author 50 years ago have been widely interpreted and circulated orally and possibly misinterpreted, there would be no better individual to explain what was actually written and meant, but the author himself in the present age. If God is the source, one would arguably seek the latest 'almost correcting' scripture to infer the strongest evidence of truth.

Again, this argument is only acceptable once one has come to rest on the conclusion of the veracity of the Quran's claim and of its protection of the message (15:9).

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline good logic

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2016, 10:27:43 PM »
Peace brother Joseph.
I am sure you would agree ,since Qoran s Arabic is absolutely clear,that GOD is saying to the Jews" You have taken words out of context2 and " you have  written your own words and claimed they are from GOD"...( 5:13,2:79)
You also would agree that GOD is similarly saying to the Christians " They will differ/become enemies/sects and disregard what they were reminded by GOD".(5:14) .
GOD is also making it absolutely clear to both to follow His messenger(Qoran):

5:15
O people of the scripture, our messenger( The Qoran) has come to you to proclaim for you many things you have concealed in the scripture, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture ( The Qoran).
يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ مُبينٌ
5:16
With it( The Qoran), God guides those who seek His approval. He guides them to the paths of peace, leads them out of darkness into the light by His leave, and guides them in a straight path.
يَهدى بِهِ اللَّهُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ رِضوٰنَهُ سُبُلَ السَّلٰمِ وَيُخرِجُهُم مِنَ الظُّلُمٰتِ إِلَى النّورِ بِإِذنِهِ وَيَهديهِم إِلىٰ صِرٰطٍ مُستَقيمٍ


This in my opinion is crystal clear to all "Ahla Al-Kitab".
However ,if one says Qoran is asking them to refer to "What is with them" i.e "Bible that existed at the time of the prophet",  then I disagree.
GOD is clear and deliberate in the verses to them to follow Torah and Injeel, that "HE sent down"that existed at the time of the prophet.i.e Only His words.
On the other hand  ,if one is to follow/refer to.. the bible,then Qoran should be used as a criteria ,just the same as it would have been used at the time of the prophet.

GOD is clear and consistent. Only His words must be the authority.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2016, 11:31:58 PM »
Dear Good Logic,

As-salamu alaykum

The verses you have quoted do not imply that the Bible that the People of Book were reading at the time of the Prophet was wholly corrupt, or that the laws were so indiscernible that the People of the Book could not be referred to them. This is an unwarranted interpretation. There were distortions, granted. There were theological convictions which the Quran opposed, granted. This however is not tantamount to wholesale corruption of the Bible or that the Quran was not referring them back to the scriptures that they had with them.

On the other hand, as has been shown repeatedly to you by many members of this forum (including myself) on many occasions, there are a numerous explicit verses where God refers the People of the Book at the time of the Prophet back to their scriptures. [1]

As I have respectfully reiterated in the past, you and I have some very fundamental differences in the interpretation of our religion / scripture. Therefore, I would respectfully suggest that you and I do not revisit the same differences of opinion that already exist [2]. There is no mileage in this and a waste of both of our times.

In my humble view and with all due respect, I do not feel that you give appropriate consideration to clear, explicit verses of the Quran and as I have repeatedly mentioned, I find that your adherence to the Submitter's theology and acceptance of Rashad Khalifa as a messenger of the Covenant a hindrance in advancing intellectual thought or seeking better evidence between us.

Please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. I mean this sincerely and with utmost respect.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] 'BETWEEN HIS HANDS' OR 'BEFORE IT' (MA BAYNA YADAYHI)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
[2] Good Logic
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline IjazAhmad

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Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2016, 03:24:54 AM »
May I request Bro Joseph Islam to kindly clarify as to following the laws of Taurah & Injeel by Muslims?
Secondly the Jews & Christans may continue to follow their Books after Quran was revealed? Thanks

Peace be upon you!

The Qur'an is the criterion for the believers, thus we have to follow it. However, I believe that we can take from the Torah that which can be of help to understand the Qur'an. The Qur'an confirms and is a guard over the previous scriptures. We have our own sharee'ah and the Jews have their own sharee'ah. I hope this helped!