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Offline wanderer

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Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« on: April 27, 2017, 11:21:53 AM »
Salaam Br. Joseph--

Does verse 47:4 mandate that prisoners of war be either released or ransomed? I've seen many differing positions on this, so it would be great if I could get your perspective on this, since I haven't seen you speak about this explicitly before. Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.

Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 11:08:17 PM »
Does verse 47:4 mandate that prisoners of war be either released or ransomed?

Wa alaikum assalam Wanderer,

Yes.

The Quran is quite explicit in what it states.

"...Then either grant them a favour  / show grace / be generous / gratuitous / reasonable (Arabic: mannan) or ransom (fidaan) them..."

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 03:12:17 AM »
Thank you very much for response brother! The reason I ask this question is because, in my mind, this creates a seeming conflict with the verses instructing the believers to marry of the believing 'right hand possesses', which as you state in your article, includes captives of war. My question is, how is this possible if the captives are all set free after the war?
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 11:02:08 PM »
Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

I humbly feel that your statement 'instructing the believers to marry of the believing 'right hand possesses' is respectfully, devoid of necessary context and possibly why you sense a conflict.

Firstly, as you have rightly stated 'right hands possess' does not simply consist of 'captives'. Secondly, if a marriage is to take place with a woman from the category of 'right hands possess', permission has to be sought and only if marriage is not possible with a free believing women (4:25). There is no such implication that one can force marriage upon a captive. If anything, another verse 24:33 negates this.

Furthermore, I purposely provided a nuanced translation of ‘mannan’ of a part of verse 47:4. "Then either grant them a favour / show grace / be generous / gratuitous / reasonable" This can certainly include setting them free, but favours / grace can be conferred in a number of ways given the circumstances.

I trust that clarifies the matter,

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLE:

[1] SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sex%20with%20slave%20girls%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 01:05:04 AM »
Salaam Joseph--
Thank you once again for endeavoring to share your thoughts. Here is my current understanding, please inform me if I am right or wrong: If one cannot afford to marry free women, they can marry from their believing slave-girls. Marriage with captives would not generally be possible, given their circumstances.

"Furthermore, I purposely provided a nuanced translation of ‘mannan’ of a part of verse 47:4. "Then either grant them a favour / show grace / be generous / gratuitous / reasonable" This can certainly include setting them free, but favours / grace can be conferred in a number of ways given the circumstances."

What other ways can 'favor' be conferred upon captives, and what are the circumstances that necessitate them? Many of the traditional tasfir I've read say that captives shouldn't be released, because they may pose a security risk to the Islamic state. Do you agree with this?

(My apologies from clogging up your time by the way. I do not take your responses for granted, and I am very grateful you chose to respond to my inquiries. I am not trying to spam you with useless questions, but rather, trying to expand my knowledge on a subject I am having a difficult time understanding. Thank you once more.)
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 10:23:56 AM »
Here is my view: Prisoners of war should generally be released or ransomed, however, if it is believed that a prisoner/s  may pose a threat to the community if released, he should be kept in captivity. Would you agree or disagree with this perspective? I am certainly open to changing my mind if you disagree.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2017, 10:30:11 AM »
Salaam Joseph--
Your last answer was a little confusing to me. I understand that you are very busy, but I would really very much appreciate another response to settle my inquiries below.
Apologies for disturbing you & thank you once again
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2017, 04:42:55 PM »
Asalamu Alykum Br. Wanderer

In the mean time I hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts or to add to them comments.

Concerning the word "mannan"  and the nuances it implies shows that setting them free would possibly be only if the circumstances was that they impose no threat and everything is at peace. I dont see how setting one free would be imposed on prisoners of war in a time of conflict or one nation fighting another or spying on one another.

However in the circumstances of war and not necessarily ground military war, some favors or generosity can be imposed on prisons who have a aim to harm ones country or nation is to feed them, imprison them or make a gain from them while being very nice and kind with them. To make sure no harm is done to them and keep them safe and in shelter. Maybe let them do service and then once they have completed and showed some kind of repentance you may set them free. The other option is to make a gain from them by ransom.

Insha'Allah that clears up some thoughts of your.

Salam

Offline Wakas

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2017, 04:45:26 AM »
peace all,

wanderer wrote:
instructing the believers to marry of the believing 'right hand possesses', which as you state in your article, includes captives of war.

I assume above is taken from:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sex%20with%20slave%20girls%20FM3.htm

But where is the Quranic evidence for it? Perhaps brother Joseph can clarify.


Translation of verse in question:

So, when you encounter those who have rejected/concealed, then put forth /bring about the captives; until when you have subdued/overcome them, then strengthen the bind. Then after either grace/favour or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. That, and had God willed, surely He would have gained victory Himself from them, but He tests some of you with others. And those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste. [47:4]

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2017, 08:03:36 AM »
Peace Br. Wakas


Again sorry for intruding on a question that is for brother Joseph, but I think if you take a look at verse 60:10 and take inconsideration verse 4:24, you can easily figure out Insha'Allah that there is definitely the right for believing men to marry women who have a current married status, but have emigrated and will be under examination also meaning they are not free women. They are being examined so they would be taken in as captives.

The married women in verse 4:24 which are lawful for believing men are only from what the "right hands posses(ma malakat aymanukum)." There would be no other than married women that would be lawful in married other than what is stated in verse 60:10 or any other wisdom that can be extracted from the verse which would be considered captives.

4:24
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.


60:10
"O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise."



Peace

Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2017, 08:12:37 AM »
Salaam, and thank you for your response Hamzeh. However, I must admit, I am confused as to what you're saying. You say at the beginning that you can't set them free at the beginning, which is obvious. But then you say that the captives should all be freed at the end of the war, which is what Joseph seemed to say in his first response, but then changed in his second response, in which he says that favors can be conferred in other ways given the circumstances. This is the focal point of my confusion.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2017, 09:31:27 AM »
Wa alykum asalam Wanderer

Well what I should of stated was that in a time of conflict and fighting which the verse shows is present, a nation would not be setting free prisoners of war. Which the Quran also does not seem to give that suggestion in my humble opinion.

What the Quran does command is that prisoners of war which are the soldiers that are met in battle should be treated with generosity, goodness, and in reasonable manner if they are captured. They are at this point what the right hand possess or captives.

Depending on the situation also they maybe able to be ransomed if its possible. Seems to imply some sort of gain whether if one was to hold them in captivity or ransom them.

After the war there seems to be a suggestion from 60:10 that possibly there will be women leaving there previous torn apart lives and accepted Islam. These were not to be sent back. They are not lawful for the idolaters. At this stage also they would need to be treated in goodness and generously. Also no blame if believers marry them. They are also from the right hand possess.

After the war lays down it burden then I believe setting the opposing soldiers free is permissible and advisable. Which shows "grace (mannan).

Thats what I can grasp.

Insha'Allah brother Joseph will give a better explanation soon.

Salam

Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2017, 09:36:59 AM »
Yes, the Quran commands grace or ransom to POWS after the war is over. I understand that. My question is : Does grace (mannan) EXCLUSIVELY mean freedom? That is, after the war is over, do captives HAVE to be freed or ransomed? Br. Joseph's replies were a bit ambiguous on the matter, and sadly he does not seem to be responding anymore.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2017, 10:46:50 AM »
Peace Wanderer

From my understanding the Quran commands grace or ransom to POWS during the war UNTIL the war lays down its burdens. (Hatta tadaAAa alharbu awzaraha).

Hope I'm not making things more complicated. Insha'Allah ill wait for br. Joseph to see what his perspective is.

Peace


Offline wanderer

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Re: Verse 47:4-- A Question for Br. Joseph
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2017, 11:22:09 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand this. But my question is does 'mannan' exclusively mean freedom, or a's Br. Joseph seemed to say during his last post, are there circumstances that necessitate keeping the captives after the war. If so, what are those circumstances? I'm not biased towards one viewpoint or the other, I just want an honest understanding.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)