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Offline Mohammed

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Swalaah and it's shortened form
« on: July 05, 2017, 11:47:03 PM »
Dear All,
Assalaamu 'alaykum

I would like to share my understanding about Swalah and it's shortened form.

The main intention of Swalah is clear from The Verse 20:14 and many other Verses are also telling about the purpose and benefits of ‘The Swalah’ (17:111, 11:114, 29:45, 6:162 etc.)
And when we look through the Verses 100 to 103 from the Surah ‘Nisa'’(No.4) we can understand that the Verses 100 & 101 are an order/command to the Believers but not for the Prophet (since it mentions about the Believers who gets out from their homes emigrating to Allah and His Messenger), and the next Verse starting with the term ‘Wa idhaa kuntha feehim...’which is exclusively for the Prophet, which may indicates that the shortening of the Prayer is applicable only for Believers and not for the Prophet. So, what the Prophet performed at that place may be the real form/structure of the Prayer and not a shortened form of the Prayer. Thus from the Verse 102, we can interpret that, the Swalah contains two units, each unit involves Standing and Prostrating. And bowing is not a separate step rather it is an act of humbleness throughout the Swalah (2:43, 3:43, 77:48). i.e. we may have to bend our head with complete submission and a cognition that we are in contact with our Creator. In Qur’an the verses 3:113 & 50:40 mention what to say/do during standing and prostrating, some other verses (like 32:15) also indicates the glorification in prostration, but nowhere had I found in Qur'an what to say/ do during bowing (so it may not be a separate step in Swalah). And many verses are there which mention bowing and prostration together (9:112, 48:29, 22:77) while some verses mention standing and prostration together(3:113, 4:102, 39:9), but standing and bowing together nowhere I found. And only in one verse I found all the three terms came together (22:26) but here the term r-k-'a expressed as rukka' as an attachment to the term s-j-d and not as a separate act. i.e. here it means, kneeling down to/ bowing to (prostration), otherwise it can come in the form 'Raaki'een' like the the other two terms in the same verse thwaa'efeen and Qaa'emeen. You can connect this verse with 9:112 to get what I am trying to say. [I am trying my best to share my thoughts with you and am sorry that my knowledge in english is limited. I know only few words and a little grammer in english, hope you will manage it.]
And after directing ourselves towards Ka’bah, we can start the Swalah. I think the verses 17:110 & 111 help us to understand what to say and how to say in Swalah better. And nowhere it is mentioned raising the hands and/ or placing it on stomach or saying Allahu Akbar (which is not Quranic), instead Allah tells us to call Him Allah or Al Rahman (17:110). And the verse 4 :102 mention to take weapons/arms during the Swalah in that particular situation, so if the practices like placing hand on the stomach is there in Swalah, then it would have mentioned there, I believe.

And shortening of the Prayer is, performing single unit instead of two (as the Believers did at that situation, 4:101-102 ), but only if, fear the attack/torture from the disbelievers.
And Allah knows the best.

Kindly request you all to share your thoughts.
Regards,
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline ilker

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 12:42:30 AM »
Salam brother

Why makes you think "Allahu Akbar" isn't Quranic ?

Can't we think of it as "74:3" being put into practice with words i.e. gloryfing Allah (swt), saying that He (swt) is "above" all things that comes to mind ?

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 04:06:36 AM »
Dear Brother,
The term Allahu Akbar is un-Qur’anic, nowhere in Qur’an, does we find Allah (Swt), referring to Himself as Akbar. While the term Akbar used in many places in Qur’an to compare things (e.g. 2:219). Akbar does not mean “Great” or “Greatest”, it means “greater”. To refer to Allah as greater, is to compare Him to something, because “greater” is a comparative term and Allah cannot be compared to anything. Hence when people say Allahu Akbar, they are, in fact, saying Allah is the “greater”. Given that, Allah calls Himself as Al-Kabeer, The Incomparably Great, for anyone to then call Him the “greater”, is to negate the very name which He gave Himself-Al Kabeer, because “greater” is beyond “great”. Further, Allah, cannot have competing names, meaning, He cannot be Al Kabeer, the Great and Akbar, the greater, because how can He be greater than Himself ?. I know / I believe that majority of the people are using the term Allahu Akbar without knowing the meaning but with an intention to glorify Allah as you said. But how one could perform the Swalah without knowing what he is saying? See the verse (4:43) "You, you those who believed, do not approach the prayers and you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying...".  In addition, nowhere does Allah, as with Akbar, ever refer to Himself as Al Akbar.

Remember The verse 7:33, “Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against the truth or reason; and that you share/make partners/associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and that you say on (about) Allah what you do not know”.
When you use Allahu Akbar, you say of Allah that which you do not know and you associate with a name for which He has not given any authorization. i.e. an ayat using that designation in regard to Himself.
Allah has not given us the authority to assign attributes to Him.
2:80 "And they say: the fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days; Say: Have you taken a promise from Allah, for He never breks His Promise? Or is it that you say of Allah what you do not know?"
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Duster

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 05:01:24 AM »
Shalom / peace ....

A related Q&A

Allah Hu Akbar  - http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=326.0

Offline ilker

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 10:18:28 PM »
Salam,

Alhamdulillah brother mohammad, i know that "akbar" means "greater". When i say Allahu Akbar i don't mean to make some sort of a gradation. I don't use it as one of the names of Allah (swt) ! Like what brother Joseph said in the article brother Duster posted, the phrase "Allah is the greatest" also gives a sense of comparison too, when you think about it in the same way (when you take it as a "relative" expression).

You talk about associating partners etc.. That has nothing to do with it. Please read the article brother Duster posted above.

29:45:

"Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do." (the word used in this ayah is "akbar" so remembrance of Allah (swt) is greater than anyting you can think of = remembrance of Allah (swt) is the greatest ).

When you say Allahu akbar, you mean the same thing like Allah (swt) said in this ayah. Whatever you think of, whoever you love, whatever you do, whatever you can imagine... Allahu akbar... Allah is above all of them. It's not a comparison as in "rating" (hasha). Allah (swt) is greater than your mind can comprehend.

Even when you say "Allah is the greatest", Allah (swt) is still greater than what you mean by "Allah is the greatest" by your human mind. So Allahu Akbar means actually, Allah is greater than what you think of Him. It is not comparing Him with other stuff that some people mention to associate with Him.

I think you wandered off a little bit brother.

Salam.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 11:34:46 PM »
Dear Brother,
Kindly please see the above verses (7:33, 2:80)
We are not allowed to assign any attribute to Allah for which He has not sent down any authority. And we cannot say anything about Allah which we don't know. None of us 100% sure that there is nothing wrong in saying Allahu akbar since the term is not in the Qur'an.
And also when we are praying we should know what we are saying (4:43). Imagine when one perform the Swalah in english will he say 'Allah is the greater' ?
I Wonder why people are this much obstinate !
I believe, the term 'Allahu akbar' is imitated by people only because of their careless nature. They are not trying to know what they are saying actually.
Howmany beautiful words are there to Glorify Allah from the Qur'an ! Still they want to continue to use some words which they got from their forefathers and they do not know its meaning properly !!
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline ilker

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 12:14:14 AM »
Salam

Why do you keep reminding me that we should know what we are saying ? Alhamdulillah i know that brother. Brother Duster posted a link and i tried to remind you of 29:45 also.  Don't you know Allah(swt) is above all that you can think of ? greater than you can imagine ? Is it something about Allah you don't know ?

Well some people may be obstinate but i think it's better to examine ourselves first before talking about "people". You seem to understand the phrase "Allahu Akbar" like some kind of "sorting". I tried to tell you it's not.

You say (quote): " I believe, the term 'Allahu akbar' is imitated by people only because of their careless nature. They are not trying to know what they are saying actually. "

With all due respect brother that is just your negative assumption.

Offline munir rana

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 03:10:21 PM »
Salam

When we say Einstein is the greatest scientist or Mother Teresa is the greatest humanitarian, what do we mean? We must not compare them with all the beings of the universe. Do we? These are all but expressions.
We know what we mean.

And Allah knows what's in our mind which actually matters (as said in the Holy Book).

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 06:47:47 AM »
Asalamu Alykum brother Mohammed

You said
Quote
And when we look through the Verses 100 to 103 from the Surah ‘Nisa'’(No.4) we can understand that the Verses 100 & 101 are an order/command to the Believers but not for the Prophet (since it mentions about the Believers who gets out from their homes emigrating to Allah and His Messenger), and the next Verse starting with the term ‘Wa idhaa kuntha feehim...’which is exclusively for the Prophet, which may indicates that the shortening of the Prayer is applicable only for Believers and not for the Prophet. So, what the Prophet performed at that place may be the real form/structure of the Prayer and not a shortened form of the Prayer.

Verse 4:101 is basically stating to anyone in fear from amongst the believers whether in a group or alone may shorten there regular prayers that they establish. I do not find any reason to limit this only for the believers and not the prophet. This may also apply that even when the prophet is among groups of believers and there is fear of attach from the disbelievers, the prophet and all those with him may shorten the prayer. Verse 4:102 also maybe a shorten practice of the regular prayer they usually established. God knows best

Verse 4:102 is stating that when prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is amongst the believers that they should not all be praying at once. But possibly because he was the leader there is an expectation from God that the prophet leads the prayers.

The main message is that even if in a safe place in a time of war, that believers should not all pray at once but always have a party on defence. However in verse 4:102 the prophet would be the leader of prayer so is expected to pray as an imam for the parties that are with him.

Quote
Thus from the Verse 102, we can interpret that, the Swalah contains two units, each unit involves Standing and Prostrating.

"faitha sajadoo" (and when they have performed their prostrations,) does not indicate how many units has been done. You have assumed it is once.

Quote
In Qur’an the verses 3:113 & 50:40 mention what to say/do during standing and prostrating, some other verses (like 32:15) also indicates the glorification in prostration,

Those verses you mentioned do not detail exactly what to say. For example verse 3:113 says that there seems to be a group from the People of the Book that recite the revelations of Allah(swt) in the nights, and they prostrate before the Lord. It is also possible this group is reciting the previous Scriptures of God.
The question still remains, which chapters or verses should be recited? What duration of time etc?

I think you have to admit that God has allowed believers to establish a practice of prayer and not spoon feed them every detail. Of course that the format must include what God had made obligatory but also those obligatory actions are not meant to go into every step. Even a call for prayer has been accepted from the Quran 62:9. But what to say is not mentioned.

Quote
I think the verses 17:110 & 111 help us to understand what to say and how to say in Swalah better. And nowhere it is mentioned raising the hands and/ or placing it on stomach or saying Allahu Akbar (which is not Quranic), instead Allah tells us to call Him Allah or Al Rahman (17:110).

The Quran also does not state that one should place his hands on his side or in front. I think you are expecting that every detail should be mentioned and if it is not then it is un-Quranic.

Also 17:110 states that " Call unto Allah, or call unto the Beneficent/Merciful, unto whichsoever you call(it is the same). His are the most beautiful names(falahu alasmaaoo alhusna)

Any names that represent the greatest attributes whether mention in the Quran or not maybe used to relate or to call to the Lord.


I kindly share a excerpt of a post with you:

"Once again, how has a simple command, to 'Establish prayer' with a few guiding principles confounded so many? God arguably provides ritual flexibility in His Divine wisdom, man attempts to shackle himself with unnecessary burdens.
This is arguably a DISEASE inherent in humans.

002:067
"And when Moses said to his people: Indeed God commands you that you should sacrifice a cow. They said: Do you ridicule us? He said: I seek the protection of God from being one of the ignorant

002:068
"They said: Pray to your Lord for us to make it clear to us what she is. Moses said: He says, Indeed she is a cow neither advanced in age nor too young, of middle age between that (and this); so do what you are commanded"

002:069
"They said: Pray to your Lord for us to make it clear to us what her colour is. Moses said: He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; bright in her colour, giving delight to the beholders"

002:070
"They said: Pray to your Lord for us to make it clear to us what she is. for indeed to us the cows are all alike, and if God pleases we shall surely be guided aright"

002:071
"He (Moses) said: He (God) says, Indeed she is a cow not trained to plough the earth, nor does she water the field; sound, without a blemish in her. They said: Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it)"


Nothing remains more striking than the desire of the human condition to elicit finer and finer details of a general religious commandment to the point that it becomes almost arduous for them to perform."

From verses 2:67-71 if Mose's people had sacrificed any cow from when the command was first initiated in verse 2:67 would God had accepted it?

Salam bro

A SIMPLE INSTRUCTION CONFOUNDS MANY - 'ESTABLISH SALAAT'
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/487157614754704

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 09:01:28 PM »
Wa'alaikum salam

Dear brother Hamzeh,

I think you might be familiar with the Qur'anic verses which repeatedly says the perfectness and the completeness of Al Qur'an. Do you agree with that ?

And I do not understand the reason for the excerpt of the facebook post. I said nothing but to follow the scripture as it is, no addition no subtraction, and to not follow the insertions of the forefathers which are not in the scripture. Where it is confounding ?
If people from different countries/ continents followed their own ways of Swalah other than/in addition what is in the scripture, Then where is the unity ? How they can do a congregational prayer when they are united in one place ?

Anyway I do not wish to argue more with your last post.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 03:28:23 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Mohammed

Yes of course I agree with the Quran being perfect and a complete guidance and completely detailed. Alhamdulila. But it also did not intend to restrict its principles to only one way. A certain task can be fully fulfilled in many ways at times.

For example. We are ordered to only eat meat that the name of God was pronounced over at the time of slaughter. This can be achieved in many ways.

The reason for the post was to illustrate that some times a simple command from God does not intend to be finely detailed and still possible to be achieved. The fine details on how to implement the command may need to be thought of by the community. From community to community you will possibly see a change. But they should all overlap in the main guiding principles.

The Quran lays out the obligatory guiding principles and we as believers would have to take it from there.

I was under the impression from you that if the Quran does not state a detail then it should not be mentioned or done.

You said
Quote
And nowhere it is mentioned raising the hands and/ or placing it on stomach or saying Allahu Akbar (which is not Quranic), instead Allah tells us to call Him Allah or Al Rahman (17:110)

How does a community gather people for prayer?
What initiates the prayer?
What marks the transition bowing to prostration?
What marks the ending of the prayer?


These are not detailed or prescribed that they should be part of an Islamic prayer but when the prophet and those around him knew they had to establish prayer they needed to take the guiding principles the Quran lays out and implement them.

They of course did not say the Quran was missing details or that it was difficult to establish because they dont have enough details.

They understood that they had to come up with a system. Only God knows for sure but the system of prayer in the main today does seem to conform to the guiding principles or at least almost all of them and maybe very very similar to the prayers that was being performed by prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and his people.

You said
Quote
. I said nothing but to follow the scripture as it is, no addition no subtraction, and to not follow the insertions of the forefathers which are not in the scripture. 

I do not find that raising the hands or speaking words that are not mentioned in the Quran or saluting at the end of prayer or putting the hands on the stomach to be any addition.


Quote
If people from different countries/ continents followed their own ways of Swalah other than/in addition what is in the scripture, Then where is the unity ? How they can do a congregational prayer when they are united in one place ?

First if all no one is saying that countries should have different prayer formats. But where ever one travels they would be expected to join the prayer the way that congregation does it as long as it does not go against the Qurans principles. If one feels uncomfortable and thinks it is not fulfilling the requirments then dont pray with them.

Masha'Allah it seems like no matter where one goes in the world the prayer of the muslims in the main seems to be consistent. They all seem to implement almost all the guiding principles the Quran layouts and are able to pray together.

Some do have differances in how they initiate their prayers and how they congregate possibly due to weather, to size of mosques, the number of people etc.

Sorry if I miss understood you but I just had the impression that you feel that the main prayer of today is not conforming with the Quran or that any tradition that is not explicit in the Quran is to be curtailed even though the Quran does not forbid it in anyway.


Salam

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 12:12:39 AM »
Wa'alaikum salam

Brother Hamzeh,

I wish to reply for some of your questions.

Quote
How does a community gather people for prayer?
From a Qur'anic point, the time for the Prayer is based on Sun's movement, and it is visible to everyone, all around the globe regardless of the geography. Besides this natural announcement (I believe a true submitter will always be conscious about this), if needed, people can arrange bells (like in churches) or announcements(like Hyya-'ala-l-Sswalah; Hayya-'ala-l-Falah).

Quote
What initiates the prayer?
After gathering or ablution of all, the Imam can announce that they are going to start the Prayer. And this seems meaningful compared to the current practice. What people are doing now is making a meaningless sound 'Allahu akbar' to initiate the Prayer/to mark the transitions. The dogma/society may have conditioned you to find and imitate this as very normal and acceptable thing but, Have you ever thought about its meaning? its origin ? How carelessly/wrongly people (especially the Arabs) are using this meaningless sound when Al Qur'an mentions that we should know what we are saying in Swalah. I don't believe that Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) used this sound in his Prayer or as a call for the Prayer.

Quote
What marks the transition bowing to prostration?
What marks the ending of the prayer?
[Al Qur'an, 17:110] "...And do not (be) loud/publicized with your Prayers and do not (be) silent with it, and/but seek between that a way."

So people behind the Imam will be knowing everything.


If people from different countries/ continents followed their own ways of Swalah other than/in addition what is in the scripture, Then where is the unity ? How they can do a congregational prayer when they are united in one place ?

First if all no one is saying that countries should have different prayer formats.

I meant the 'ritual flexibility in Swalah' from your post.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2017, 12:40:10 AM »
Sorry if I miss understood you but I just had the impression that you feel that the main prayer of today is not conforming with the Quran or that any tradition that is not explicit in the Quran is to be curtailed even though the Quran does not forbid it in anyway.

[Al Qur'an, 2:239] "...So when you are safe/secure then remember Allah, as He (has) taught you what you were not knowing."
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Wakas

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2017, 05:12:39 PM »
peace all,

Quote from: mohammed
From a Qur'anic point, the time for the Prayer is based on Sun's movement, and it is visible to everyone, all around the globe regardless of the geography

This is simply not true. Please research countries within the Arctic circle.

With regards to the regular/timed salat of the mumineen, The Quran uses the singular address when mentioning sun movement/timings. Only the plural is used in 24:58 which does not explicitly mention the sun, it mentions morning/evening. Similar occurs for SaBiH. No coincidence in my view.

And lastly, using 4:102 for "ritual prayer" is actually not as straightforward as one might think. This has also been discussed on the forum.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Swalaah and it's shortened form
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2018, 01:58:16 PM »
For those Believers who are living in polar region/working in space stations and feel difficult/not able to perform Swalah/fast in Ramadan, I think these verses may have the answer.

[Al Qur'an 4:97] "That those the angels make them die, unjust (to) themselves, they said: "In what you were/have been?" They said: "We were weakened in the Earth/land." They said: "Was not God's Earth/land wide/spacious so you emigrate in it." So those, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, and it was a bad/evil end/destination".
[Al Qur'an 4:98] "Except the weakened from the men, and the women, and the children, they are not able (of a) solution (means)
and nor they be guided a way/path".
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]