Musa and Khidr

[Zack]

Just so people don't mis-quote or misunderstand me, I have never said anything negative about the Qur'an.

However the traditional approach, including it seems the consensus on this forum, is "The stories in the Qur'an are true because the Qur'an says the stories in the Quran are true." As the Qur'an is increasingly subject to critical thinking, as the Bible has been, people who have this position of "because the Qur'an says so" will probably be respected, but viewed as not having any substance to their belief. I am surprised with this, as a number of articles encourage us to "use our mind.," not blind faith.

However when we approach the stories of the Qur'an as I have suggested, that is its approach is to utilise existing oral stories to preach a message of repentance, the Qur'an can stand firm in a critical environment.

So just so I understand.... You believe that Allah revealed to Muhammad in a cave the historical events that occurred thousands of years earlier, correct? Even though the Hebrew people, who had been the custodians of these stories back to the time of Moses, did not view these stories in their history, the stories that Muhammad revealed superseded the understanding of how the Hebrews understood their own story?

I don't get that understanding from the Qur'an...... instead the Qur'an guards, confirms, affirms etc. the previous message.

Wasalam
Zack

[Hamzeh]

Dear Zack


Asalamu 3alykum

I think it is very clear from reading posts and articles that most people on this forum are not blind believers in the Quran. After one takes the oath to God that he/she has believed in the testimony of the Quran, then yes the stories in the Quran remain pure and true UNTIL proven otherwise. When I say proven otherwise which I am convinced they can never be, I mean in a scholarly academic way that presents undoubtable evidence.

The Quran will remain open to critical thinking, as I think many will agree the more one gives thought to the Quran the more one is convinced its the word of the Lord without any doubt(Alhamdulila Insha'Allah).

I think many before they claim to say "because the Quran says so" have somehow came to be convinced that the Quran is the word of God. It is after this has been acknowledged and in matters that are "unknown" or cannot be verified through history(cameras, etc) or real scientific logical evidence that they say "because the Quran says so".

Why should we deny the stories in the "Quran" when there is no reason at all to doubt it only that they may not be fitting to ones own worldly views. I mean if one really gives thought to the creation of ones own life it also cannot be fully understood but we exist. But in reality it does not fit with the worldly view. All we can say is that God told us how we were created in the Quran or Bible and we have no other way of figuring it out and no time machine to take us back. When the stories speaking about people living long lives, or prophets and messengers were sent with miracles it maybe hard to understand them, but we cannot disprove them.

Also God has His ways to show His signs to His creation. Something that believers just feel and understand but cannot explain.


Also I notice and feel at times that you think the Quran is prophet "Muhammad's(pbuh)" words and his thoughts and not the word of God, the same God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus(pbut)?, excuse me if I am under the wrong impression and I apologize.

If you really did believe it was the word of God, the same God who sent the Torah to Moses(pbuh) and Gospel to Jesus(pbuh) do you not realize what you maybe implying? That 3 different revelations with somehow different stories and at times in contrast with each other.

God is clearly saying the Quran is a confirmation of the message that went before it. But God also protect His words of the Bible through His final revelation at least what He deemed to protect.

Believers of the Scriptures can clearly see this. Its not that one is better than the other. Its just that one is newer and purer than the other. God's words do not contradict each other whether it is within the same Book or from a revelation to a revelation.

Believers believe the stories in the Quran over the differences in stories in the Bible not because we are favoring one over another. Its the fact that we believe that the one true God has revealed the Bible and also revealed the Quran. They both belong to Him. But it is God Himself who uncovered the faults and fabrications of the past. He is the One who had informed us that the Quran is a guard over any difference that is present. He also chose to use the Quran to protect His own message that went before it as people had fiddled with it.

We ultimately make no distinctions between any of them only we use the Quran as a final criterion to guard the truth and correct all the misconceptions that ever spread from the time of the Bibles ministry to the end of time Insha'Allah. In this capacity that the messenger Muhammad(pbuh) and the Quran are also a mercy and a guidance to the People of the Book.

I also think its safe to say that the God did not reveal or document every incident that ever happened about the Prophets and Messengers in the Bible.

Stories mentioned in the Quran that are not mentioned in the Bible should not be taken as fake or tales because the Bible is silent on the matter.

No one is saying that Allah(swt) is intending to reveal the historical events of the past. As brother Joseph stated that the Quran does not intend to be a historical book, but it is a Book that protects God's words and message if they had been twisted. And as a whole its been guarded.

You said "instead the Quran guards, confirms, affirms etc. the previous message."

Its really confusing sometimes that I hear that from you and then at times you do not believe that it also corrects some passages or some incidences that was said to be from God.

Take a look at this article about the exodus of Moses(pbuh) people[1] from a Quran's perspective compared to the exodus from the Bible's perspective.

If one says they believe in the Bible and the Quran to be from God then its clear that they have to choose one version of the story over the other to be the correct story. As I do not find you take this approach and I kindly respect that.

The Quran is admitting that its a confirmation of the message and truth with the People of the Book. That its the same God speaking to humanity once again. But at the same stroke also confirming that it corrects and guards the stories that were invented in the name of God from the people gone before the Quran. Any historical or message that is different between the two, the Quran should be taken as the truth not the other way around. Especially when you believe that both are from God otherwise something is problematic with this ideology.



Salam

[1]EXODUS OF PROPHET MOSES'S (pbuh) PEOPLE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/exodus%20of%20moses's%20people%20FM3.htm

[Hamzeh]

Peace Zack

If I may just clarify my last post incase it was not that clear as I find I was not that clear and please forgive me as its just a little late where I am.

Mainly I'm saying that I find your opinions are kinda surprising to me. I am not sure how you view the Quran as I get mixed feeling that sometimes you claim to believe in it but also at times you stand on the side of the Bible's interpretation when matters are in contrast. Also you seem to continually suggest that the Quran should not be viewed as a historical book at all, and should not be consulted when such topics about Moses or Jesus are discussed. That the Bible is the source to be viewed despite the Qurans contrasting message about them.  This is the impression I get from you and I apologize if I'm wrong.

We must first all admit that there is no doubt that the Quran and Bible do have some differences in certain matters, as I'm sure you acknowledge.

If so, and if your views are accepted how can we say that the differences in the stories are from the same God when we know God is perfect and does not contradict His messages ?

Did God allow contrasting narratives within His revelations?

We have to be honest and either say that the passages in the Quran are false or the passages in the Bible are false when there is conflicting narratives. They cannot both be correct.

To also say that the Quranic narratives were not meant to be true or acurrate is not something that is warranted from the Quran as brothers Joseph and Ilker have provided verses to prove that they are true and actual historic events and not tales that were flowing around in Arabia that were meant to only deliver an overall messages of repentance and so on. So we have to rule that thought out completely.



Salam

[Joseph Islam]

However the traditional approach, including it seems the consensus on this forum, is "The stories in the Qur'an are true because the Qur'an says the stories in the Quran are true." As the Qur'an is increasingly subject to critical thinking, as the Bible has been, people who have this position of "because the Qur'an says so" will probably be respected, but viewed as not having any substance to their belief. I am surprised with this, as a number of articles encourage us to "use our mind.," not blind faith.

Dear Zack,

As-salamu alaykum

Whilst I appreciate the notion of circular reasoning [1], I trust that you will agree that in any epistemic discussion there are points of established references. Without any common ground, a discussion would arguably be futile.

Regarding Islam from a Quran-centric position, if I am discussing the matter as a 'believer', then it should be no surprise to anyone that the primary source of reference (ultimate criterion) for me would be the Quran. I believe this much should be evident from the prolific writings on this forum and on this website in the main. I believe this approach would be no different for any other believer.

Between Christians, the references would be different as would be the case between two Jews, interfaith dialogue or discussions with an atheist. The points of references / criterion would change accordingly.

I confess that I may have misunderstood your position regarding the Quran and how you interpret its veracity along with its position amongst all the other scriptures; that is why I assumed that the Quran would remain our final criterion. I believe now that I was possibly mistaken in this regards, borne from what I feel are some of the sentiments you have shared over the course of your writings here on the forum.

I will of course be conscious of this in any future response I respectfully share with you.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] CURCULAR REASONING
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=252518648218603

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Hamzeh,

As-salamu alaykum

Jazak Allah Khair for your thoughtful posts. 

Regards,
Joseph

[Zack]

I confess that I may have misunderstood your position regarding the Quran and how you interpret its veracity along with its position amongst all the other scriptures; that is why I assumed that the Quran would remain our final criterion. I believe now that I was possibly mistaken in this regards, borne from what I feel are some of the sentiments you have shared over the course of your writings here on the forum.

I will of course be conscious of this in any future response I respectfully share with you.

Regards,
Joseph

Sorry Br. Jospeh. When I read the quote from what I wrote it comes across quite negative and harsh of the Qur'an and this site, which is not at all where I stand. I can honestly say that I have referred the articles on this site to hundreds of people as, in my view, the premier website globally on themes within the Qur'an. Some of these people in turn I know have translated dozens of articles on this site in their own language.

Simply to summarize, I believe in the message of the Qur'an, with the Qur'an often utilising stories contemporary to the Prophet as the medium to communicate the message, with those stories based upon Prophets of history. With this, the focus is on the message, not the story.
Anyway this is how I can come to a position of the Holy Books in unity with each other which I am committed to.

This has been my position all along on this forum... sorry if I came across negative Duster & Hamzeh,

All the best,

Zack