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Offline Ocyid

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Well, this is actually the continuation from previous post:

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Since I am not sure that the previous post is interested enough for you to read, just remember that anything you find interesting in this post might be related to the explanation in the previous post. Thus, to read the previous post is actually advisable. The funny thing is that I am not really sure somebody will eventually read this writing ::)

Anyhow, besides the "names" of God mentioned in ancient texts that I have explained in the previous posts ("Aten" and "Prajapati"), there is actually another "ancient names" of God that can be found in an ancient text that once thought to be lost: the Gathas (Avestan). This "name" of God mentioned there is "Ahura Mazda".

The Mighty – Wise Lord: Ahura Mazda
Ahura Mazda is the “Supreme Being” or “The Highest Spirit” of Zoroastrianism, title of a “Great Divinity”. The website Sreenivasaraos.com explains that Ahura Mazda is a formless One and Only God by referring to “Gathas: 29.4”. Iranicaonline.org mentions that Ahura Mazda is “One uncreated God” (second paragraph) with the reference cited “Y (Yasna) 30.3 and 45.2”. Common website like Wikipedia simply states Ahura Mazda as “Creator and Sole God” of Zoroastrianism without explaining the source. A writer in Ancient.eu, the so-called educational website of history, describes Ahura Mazda as “the Highest Spirit worshipped in Zoroastrianism”. Most of the websites in the internet will imply that either Ahura Mazda is the “Only God” of Zoroastrianism or He simply is the “Supreme Being”. These two statements actually have different understandings, which eventually lead in different views in seeing the Divinity of “Ahura Mazda”. However, both statements actually share common ground in which Ahura Mazda is viewed as the “Highest Entity” in Zoroastrianism.

Not only in viewing the Divinity of Ahura Mazda, there are also some points of view in viewing the Zoroastrianism itself. One of them is the monotheistic value of Zoroastrianism as it has been discussed by James W. Boyd and A. Donald in their scientific journal “Is Zoroastrianism Dualistic Or Monotheistic?”. For those who are interested more can visit this website https://doi.org/10.1093/jaarel/XLVII.4.557. Or, if you do not have the access, you may want to visit Falsewitnessblog.wordpress.com article about Zoroastrianism: “FACT-CHECK: Is Zoroastrianism a Monotheistic Religion?”. Another point of view comes from Khosro Khazai (Pardis), the writer of The Gathas; The Sublime Book of Zarathustra, which states in Gatha.org that “the Gatha of Zaratustra(sic) is not a religion”. However, the term “religion” is actually mentioned in the Gathas: Yasna 44.10, 44.11, 49.6, 53.1 and 53.2. The website Zoroaster.com also posted about it in its index page of “The Religion of Ahura Mazda”.

There would be a lot of interpretations in viewing the Divinity of Lord Ahura Mazda, in viewing the position of Zarathustra as the prophet of Zoroastrianism, or in viewing the Zoroastrians itself. This is actually something natural; the way there are many interpretations in viewing verses in Quran or in viewing Islam in general – or, as it has been discussed before, in viewing the Divinity of Lord Prajâpati in Mandala X Hymn 121 of the Rig Veda or in viewing the Divinity of Lord Aten in The Great Hymn to the Aten. Again, this is something natural. Therefore, we may want to focus more on what is actually being said in the source texts themselves than the interpretations.

In the internet, there are at least two free sources of the Gathas that I could find. The one is the website Avesta.org with the translation from L. H. Mills, Sacred Books of the East, American Edition (1898) . The other is the website Zoroaster.com with the translation from Prof Ervad Maneck Furdoonji KANGA M.A. in Gatha-Ba-Maani. I recommend to see both translations to get the insight from the Gathas, the way I recommend to see multiple translations of the Quran from the website Corpus.Quran.com  for non-Arabic speaker to get better understanding for the Quran itself. Moreover, the website Zoroaster.com even provides the words-to-words version of the Gathas. However, it shall always be remembered that the translation of the Gathas is basically the translation of an extinct language by using its closest counterpart: the Vedic Sanskrit. Thus, the role or, more precisely, the “influence” of Vedic Sanskrit shall never be forgotten.

Ahura Mazda is mentioned multiple times in the Gathas. I originally use the translation by L.H. Mills from Avesta.org to conduct my research. From what I could find from L. H. Mills translation, the “name” Ahura Mazda is not always mentioned as “Ahura Mazda”, but also as “Mazda Ahura” and independently as “Mazda” and as “Ahura”. “Ahura Mazda” and “Mazda Ahura” are mentioned 66 times, with “Ahura Mazda” is mentioned 12 times and “Mazda Ahura” is mentioned 54 times in Gatha. While independently, “Ahura” is mentioned 129 times and “Mazda” is mentioned 181 times. Based on this translation, the flexibility of its placements may actually show that “Ahura Mazda” is not a “name”, but rather a “reference” for God or simply the “linguistic elements” used in Avestan to represent “The God” Himself. The same way “Allah” is used in Arabic, “Aten” is used in ancient Egypt, and “Prajâpati” is used in Sanskrit.

For the meaning of Ahura Mazda itself, some of the websites in the internet simply states that Ahura Mazda means “Wise Lord”, which “Ahura” means “Lord” and “Mazdā” or “Mazdāh” means “Wisdom” or “Wise” . Radu Cristian in his article Ahura Mazda in Ancient.eu (Ancient History Encyclopedia) explains that “Mazda, or the Avestan form of the Mazdā, reflects the proto-Iranian word Mazdāh which is a feminine noun. Considered the proper name of the god, it may also come from the Sanskrit word medhās, meaning 'intelligence' or 'wisdom'” . Therefore, many may know “Ahura Mazda” simply means “Wise Lord”. However, the website Sreenivasaraos.com, with understanding that Avestan language closely resembles Vedic Sanskrit, implies that “Ahura” might be the variant of Vedic Sanskrit “Asura= the Formless Mighty Lord”, while Mazda might be the variant of “Mahat = Greatest; or Medha = Vedhas = wise” (point 86.2)[/color].

Encyclopedia Iranica (Iranicaonline.org) in its article about Ahura Mazda explains that the identification of “Ahura” as the Nameless, Exalted Asura of the Rigveda is “not universally accepted”. However, if “Ahura” is indeed a variant of the Vedic Sanskrit word “Asura”, it literally means “Powerful or Mighty”. P.L. Bhargava in his journal article THE WORD ASURA IN THE ṚGVEDA explains that “Barring seven of the latest hymns, the word asura, including its variants asurya and āsura, is always used in Rgveda as an adjective meaning powerful or mighty”. Thus, Ahura Mazda could also mean “Mighty” (Asura) “Wise” (Medhās) based on this explanation. Now, the most interesting part is that this “name” is actually mentioned many times in the Quran. The “Mighty” - “Wise”, or I would prefer the “Almighty - All Wise” Lord, is actually mentioned in Quran. However, this “name” is not mentioned by using Avestan language, but in Arabic language.

One of the “Beautiful Names” or more precisely “Divine Characteristics” of God mentioned together in Quran is the All Mighty (Al Aziz) - All Wise (Al Hakeem). Surely, these are not the only “names” that are mentioned together. There are other “combination of names” that are also mentioned together like The All Knower – The All Wise (ʿAlīman - Hakīman) in Al Insaan (76) 30, The Most High – The Most Wise (Aliyyun - Hakīmun) in Ash-Shura (42) 51, The All Might – All Knowing (L-ʿazīzi - L-ʿalīmi) in Al An’am (6) 96, and more. However, the “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu” (The All Mighty – The All Wise) is among the combinations that are quite frequently mentioned in Quran. You may want to check the Holy Quran yourself for this.

I do a little research regarding this particular “names”. Based on my findings, the “All Mighty” (Al Aziz and its variants) is mentioned at least 87 times and “All Wise” (Al Hakim and its variants) is mentioned at least 90 times in Quran. For the analysis itself, I used Indonesian language version of the Quran (Al Quran Indonesia) and make the words “Perkasa (Mighty)” and “Bijaksana” (Wise) as a keyword. The Arabic word “Al Hakim” is consistently translated into “Bijaksana” (Wise) in Indonesian language. However, the word “Perkasa” does not always come from the Arabic word “Al Aziz” or its variants. For example, the Arabic word “L-qahāru” in His Beautiful Names “L-wāḥidu (The One) - L-qahāru” is also translated into “Mighty (Almighty)” in Indonesian language. In Corpus.Quran.com, you can see that different translators use different words in translating this Arabic word, with Pickthall as the only one that translates it into “Almighty” (look Quran chapter 12 verse 39 as an example) . Therefore, since the Arabic word might not root from the Arabic word “Aziz”, I exclude these verses.

From 92 verses that I found, there are 87 verses left which mentions Allah as the “Al Aziz” or the “Almighty”. From these 87 verses, 47 verses mention Allah as the “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu” (The All Mighty – The All Wise). The same thing with Allah as the “Al Hakim” or the “All Wise”. From 90 verses, 47 verses mention Allah as the “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu” (The All Mighty – The All Wise). It means more than half the verses that mention Allah as the “Al Aziz” (The Almighty) and “Al Hakim” (The All Wise) actually refer to Him specifically as “The Almighty - All Wise” or in Arabic “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu”. This “combined-names” are being mentioned in these verses: Al Baqarah (2) 129, 209, 220, 228, 240, and 260, Ali Imran (3) 6, 18, 62, and 126, An Nisa (4) 56, 158, and 165, Al Maidah (5) 38 and 118, and other 31 verses of the Quran. In An Naml (27) verse 9 it is even clearly stated “O Moses, indeed it is I - Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise (L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu) (Sahih International translation).

Now, if we follow the formula in Ibrahim (14) verse 4 that every messengers was sent in the language of their own people, what possibly were the linguistic elements to represent The Almighty – All Wise in the language preceding the Arabic? Please note, An Nisaa (4) 164 does inform us that Allah did speak to Moses (wakallama l-lahu Mūsā taklīman). Now the question is: did God use the Arabic terms “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu” when He spoke to Moses (Musa) while Moses himself might not have spoken in Arabic language? Remember Moses might have not spoken in Arabic language is implied in Al Ahqaf (46) 12. It is informed in the verse that before Quran there was a “scripture of Moses” and Quran is a “confirming Book in an Arabic tongue” . Hence, it can be inferred from this verse that there is a possibility where Moses did not speak in Arabic language, so the book sent to him was not in Arabic (remember the formula in 14:4). And maybe that is why, Al Ahqaf (46) 12 explains that Quran is a “confirming Book in an Arabic tongue”. Moreover, it could also mean that when God spoke to Moses, He might not have spoken in Arabic but in the language of Moses or, at least, in the language that Moses could understand.

I clearly do not know in what language God possibly spoke to Moses. However, based on the explanation from An Naml (27) verse 9, the “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu” (Almighty – All Wise) God is actually already known even far before the revelation of Quran itself – or at least, during the time of Moses. Yet, the language used to “represent” Him might not have been in Arabic as it is implied in Al Ahqaf (46) 12. So, in what language God spoke to Moses? Again, I do not know in what language God spoke to Moses. Nevertheless, an ancient Holy Scripture written in an extinct language - the Old Avestan or more precisely the Gathic dialect - actually has already mentioned A God known as “Ahura Mazda” or “Asura – Medhās” in Sanskrit, which this “name” means “The Mighty – The Wise”.

Interestingly, this Holy Book has already existed even far before the revelation of Quran or even the Gospel. However, this book was once thought to be lost and only to be introduced to the Western world in the 18th century and actively studied in the 19th century. The problem is that this Holy Book is written in an extinct language. The website Encyclopedia Iranica (Iranicaonline.org) informs us that scholars “in the 20th century has tended to vindicate the comparative method ” by using Vedic Sanskrit “for which Vedic provided abundant material ” for the translation of this ancient scripture. Now, since this Holy Book has been presumably long-lost and only to be restudied in the last centuries, apparently not many Muslims are aware, know, or even care of the existence of this Scripture. Thus, not many or even “no” Muslims (as far as I know) are aware that the “names” of God mentioned in this Sacred Scripture is actually mentioned multiple times in Quran, with An Naml (27) verse 9 as the “solid” evidence.

This findings actually could have mutual benefits for both Zoroastrianism and Islam alike. For Islam, this findings confirm the truth of the information provided in An Naml (27) verse 9. One of the “names” of God well-known in the ancient world is indeed The Almighty – All Wise. The thoughtfully long-lost Gathas is the evidence for this. However, the language used to represent the meaning of this “names” is not Arabic, but Avestan – an extinct language. Thus, the linguistic elements used is not “L-ʿAzīzu - L-Hakīmu”, but “Ahura - Mazda” or in Sanskrit: the “Asura - Medhās”. Again, this could also confirm the information in Ibrahim (14) verse 4 that every messengers was sent in the language of their own people. For Zoroastrianism, this finding actually confirms that the God worshiped by the Zoroastrians might as well be the same God worshiped by Islamic people (The Almighty - All Wise Lord) and may even be the same God worshiped by the so-called Abrahamic religion. Thus, it could also mean that the Gathas might be a long lost scripture well-known for Islamic or even Abrahamic religion and Zarathustra could be a prophet that is actually very well-known for Islamic and Abrahamic religion alike. It makes the Gathas in line with the Torah, Gospel, and Quran and makes Zarathustra in line with Abraham, Moses, Isa Ibn Maryam, and Muhammad. It also means there might be mutual information between the Gathas and Quran that might have never been known before. However, before we go further, The Almighty – All Wise is actually not the only “Beautiful Names of God” mentioned in both Gathas and Quran, there are other “Beautiful Names of God” that are also mentioned in both Quran and the Gathas.
"I’ve had enough of someone else’s propaganda.…I’m for truth, no matter who tells it. I’m for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I’m a human being first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole." - Malcolm X (Chapter Nineteen, 1965)

Offline Ocyid

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Re: The "Names" of God in Ancient Texts (Part 3: The Almighty - All Wise)
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2018, 05:10:59 AM »
Other Resemblances
Another “name” of God that are mentioned in both Gathas and Quran is the “All-Seeing”. In Quran, the “All-Seeing” is represented by linguistic element “Al Basir / Al Baseer” and its variants. Based on my findings, there are at least 41 verses that mention Allah as “Al Basir” (and its variants), such as 2:96, 2:110, 2:233, 2:237, 2:265, 3:15, 3:20, 3:156, 3:163, 4: 58, 4:134, 5:71, 8:39, 8:72 and at least in other 27 verses. Whereas, Allah as the “All-Seer” (Sahih International translation for the Arabic word “Baṣīran”) can be found stated explicitly in Al Furqan (25) 20: “And ever is your Lord, Seeing” (Wakāna Rabbuka Baṣīran). A little bit information, Allah “Al Basir” are often mentioned in the sentence “Indeed, Allah of what you do, is Seeing ” (Inna l-laha Bimā Taʿmalūna Baṣīrun) such as in 2:110, 2:233, 2:237, 2:265, 3:156, and some other verses. Based on my count, this sentence appears at least in 15 from 41 verses.

In Gathas, Ahura Mazda is also mentioned as the “All-Seeing” that cannot be deceived in Yasna 45.4. Nevertheless, the linguistic elements used in Avestan is “vîspâ-hishas”. In the same Yasna, L.H. Mills chose the word “All-Observant”, while Prof. Ervad Maneck Furdoonji chose the word “All-Seeing”. In Yasna 45.4, it is informed that:

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“nôit5 divzhaidyâi6 vîspâ-hishas7 Ahurô8

Prof. Ervad translated it into:

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“Ahura Mazda8 who is the All-Seeing7 is never5 deceived by anyone6

Moreover, in the same Yasna, Prof. Ervad actually also mentions Ahura Mazda as the “All-Knowing” from the Avestan word “vaêdâ” (Mazdâo vaêdâ = Ahura Mazda “who is all-knowing”). However, this word is not mentioned in the translation from L.H. Mills of the same verse. Yet, it does not mean the “All-Knowing” is not mentioned in the Gathas version of L. H. Mills.

In the preceding Yasna or Y 45.3 from L.H. Mills version of the Gathas, Mazda Ahura is mentioned as the “All-Knowing”. The same word is also mentioned by Prof. Ervad version of the Gathas, but the chosen word is the “Omniscient”. This translation comes from the Avestan word “vîdvåo”. The word itself is mentioned in:

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“ýã62 môi63 vîdvåo64 Mazdåo65 vaochat66 Ahurô67

Prof. Ervad translates this clause into:

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“which62 the Omniscient64 Ahura67 Mazda65 has said66 to me63 (through me)”

Please notice that in the source language, the word “Mazdåo” comes before “Ahurô”. Thus, it might be why L.H. Mills translated it into Mazda Ahura instead of Ahura Mazda. Again, the same “characteristic” also mentions in Quran using the Arabic word “Al Alim / Al Aleem”.

In Quran, the terms “Allah Knows” is mentioned multiple times – here, I can even say “many” times. In Al Baqarah alone, it is mentioned at least 32 times. Based on my count, Allah “Al Alim” (and its variants) or the “All Knowing” is mostly mentioned in the combination with “Al Sami / Al Samee” (All-Hearing) in Al Baqarah. The combination “L-samīʿu - L-ʿalīmu” (All Hearing – All Knowing) is mentioned 7 times in Al Baqarah, which are in 2:127, 137, 181, 224, 227, 244, and 256. Whereas, Allah as the “Al Alim” (All-Knowing) is clearly mentioned in at least three different phrases within verses of Al Baqarah (chapter 2). It is mentioned three times within the phrase “Bikulli Shayin ʿAlīmun” (Knowing of all things – Sahih International version) in 2:29, 2:231, and 2:282; twice within the phrase “Fa-inna l-laha Bihi ʿAlīmun” (-indeed, Allah is Knowing of it – Sahih International version) in 2:215 and 2:273; once within the phrase “Wal-lahu Bimā Taʿmalūna ʿAlīmun” (And Allah of what you do [is] All-Knower – words to words translation) in 2:283. There are also other variants in saying “Allah Knows” within Al Baqarah (chapter 2) alone, not to mention any other chapters. This is just an example to show that Allah (God) as The All-Knowing is indeed mentioned or even explained within verses of Quran.

Until this point, the explanation above shows that the “God” in both the Quran and Gathas actually share at least two characteristics, which are the “All-Seeing” or “All Observant” and “All-Knowing” or the “Omniscient”. The difference is only in the linguistic element or the language used by both Holy Scriptures – one is in Arabic, other is in Avestan language. Besides the name “Ahura Mazda” itself and two characteristics above, there are at least two more “characteristics” of the Ahura Mazda that can be related to the God mentioned in Quran. These two are the “Sharpness of His Eyes” (Y 31.13) and His “First and Last” characteristic (Y 31.8 )

In Prof. Ervad translation of Yasna 31.13, it is mentioned that Ahura Mazda observes with His “Sharp Eye”. In L.H. Mills translation of the same verse, Mills used the word “Flashing Eye” instead. In the word to word translation of the Yasna, it can be seen that Prof. Ervad translation is based on the Avestan word “chashmêñg thwisrâ”. Both versions of the Yasna are presented below:

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Prof. Ervad version of Yasna 31.13 from www.Zoroaster.com:
“The questions which O Ahura Mazda any one asks openly or secretly or any person for a small sin undergoes the highest penance all these Thou dost observe with (Thy) sharp eye O lord and in accordance with truth”
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L.H. Mills version of Yasna 31.13 from www.Avesta.org:
“Whatever open or whatever secret (acts) may be visited with punishment, or whether a person for a little sin demands the highest punishment, — of all this through Asha Thou art aware, observing it with Thy flashing eye

Moreover, another resembling characteristic, which is “Thou that Seest Far Onward”, is actually mentioned in L.H. Mills translation of Yasna 33.13. However, it is not mentioned in Prof. Ervad version of the same verse. In fact, Prof. Ervad version of the same Yasna is actually quite different with the translation of L.H. Mills. Thus, I think it would be wiser for me to leave this verse alone for a while, until there is some clarity of why such inconsistency could happen or there is another alternative translation to consider. However, it does not mean the characteristic mentioned by L.H. Mills in Yasna 33.13 above should not be considered at all. It is just that it may be better to leave it for a while.

Back to the characteristic mentioned in Yasna 31.13 by both Prof. Ervad and L.H. Mills, this characteristic can actually be related to the characteristic of God mentioned in Al Kahf (18) 26. In this verse, it is explained that Allah “has [knowledge of] the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. How Seeing is He and how Hearing!” (Sahih International version). This translation comes from the Arabic “Lahu Ghaybu L-samāwāti Wal-arḍi Abṣir Bihi Wa-asmiʿ” or the words-to-words translation: “For Him (is the) unseen (of) the heavens and the earth. How clearly He sees! [of it] And how clearly He hears!”.

In the word-to-word translation, the Arabic word “Abṣir” is translated into “How clearly He sees”. If we look closely, there is actually “conceptual similarity” between the characteristic of God mentioned in Yasna 31.13 with Quran 18:26. Unfortunately, this resemblance is not quite as explicit as the All-Seeing or the All-Knowing characteristic that have been discussed before, but the resemblance here is rather implicit. If you can see it here, the conceptual idea is simply: He (God) Clearly Sees (all) for the Sharpness of His Eyes. Yet, I do not want to make my own interpretation: it is very risky and definitely will trigger heavy critics. Thus, I will only put both partial verses of Yasna and Quran here for you to conclude yourself. To look at both Yasna and Quran for the complete verses are highly recommended.

The last similar “characteristic” that I have found so far is the “First and Last” characteristic of the God mentioned in both Quran and Gathas. In L.H. Mills translation of Yasna 31.8, there is a mentioning about (Ahura) Mazda as “the First art (also) the Last”. However, this translation is slightly different with the translation of Prof. Ervad for the same verse. In Prof. Ervad version, Ahura Mazda is mentioned “as the First of All”. In the word-to-word translation provided by Zoroaster.com, it is shown that this translation comes from the Avestan word “pourvîm, while the next word “ýezîm” is translated into “Worthy of Worship” in Prof. Ervad version of the Gathas. These two Avestan words are interjected by the Avestan word “Mazdâ”, in the phrase “pourvîm Mazdâ ýezîm”. Unfortunately, L.H. Mills version of the Gathas in Avesta.org does not provide or is not accompanied by the words-to-words translation. Hence, we cannot see from what Avestan word Mr. Mills translated the word into “the Last”. Hereby, I present to you the full verse of the Yasna 31.8 from both Prof. Ervad and L.H. Mills:

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Prof. Ervad version of Yasna 31.8 from www.Zoroaster.com:
“Ever since I have held thee (O Ahura Mazda) in (my) eye I have always regarded Thee O Ahura Mazda as the first of all, as worthy of worship with pure thought as the father of Vohu Mana (good mind) as the real origin of truth (and) as the lord over (all) actions of this world”

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L.H. Mills version of Yasna 31.8 from www.Avesta.org:
“I recognize Thee, O Mazda, in my thought, that Thou the First art (also) the Last — that Thou art Father of Vohu Manah; -- when I apprehend Thee with mine eye, that Thou art the true Creator of Right [Asha], and art the Lord to judge the actions of life”

The First and The Last are two “characteristics” or “Beautiful Names of God” mentioned in Al Hadid (57) 3. If you see the translation of this verse in Corpus.Quran.com, these two “characteristics” are the ones consistently translated into “The First” and “The Last” in multiple translations provided by the website. In the page about this verse, you will see that different translators chose different words for the remaining passage. The translation of “The First” and “The Last” itself comes from the Arabic word “L-awalu” (The First) “Wal-ākhiru” (and The Last) in Quran. Now, if we use L.H. Mills translation of the Gathas, these “characteristics” mentioned in Al Hadid (57) 3 are actually also mentioned in Yasna 31.8. However, since it is not mentioned in the translation of Prof. Ervad, alternative translations or even further explanation would be required in order to find some clarity regarding the difference between both translations.

The Long-Lost Scripture
The “characteristics” of the God apparently are not the only resemblances between Gathas and Quran. There are other underlying concepts that are actually quite similar between both the Gathas and Quran. One of them is the meaning of the name “Gathas” itself.

According to Amaresh Datta in Encyclopaedia of Indian Literature: Devraj to Jyoti, Volume 2 (1988), “Gatha derived from the root ‘gai’ to speak, to recite in a singing manner, to sing, to extol. ‘Gatha’ originally meant ‘a speech’, ‘a verse’, and ‘a song.” . Now, if I am not mistaken, there is a Scripture mentioned in Quran associated with the “Book of Song”. In Wikipedia, there is an explanation about the name of this book equivalent with the Hebrew word “zimrah” (song, music), “zamir” (song and nightingale), and more, with cited reference “Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament Vol. 1, page 245”. Unfortunately, I could not access this book. So, I hesitate to put this information here. Maybe, you guys could enlighten me a little about the root of “The Scripture” mentioned in four verses of Quran (3:184, 4:163, 17:55, and 21:105).

Until this point, I cannot say that Gathas is the “Scripture” mentioned in Quran. It, unfortunately, would require another lengthy writing for me to explain this. The least I can say is that there is a long-lost or even forgotten ancient Sacred Scripture known as the “Gathas” (‘a speech’, ‘a verse’, and ‘a song’). This Holy Book has been existing even before the revelation of Gospel and Quran. However, since it was written in extinct language and has “just” been restudied and translated in the last couple centuries, this book is (apparently) often “unrecognized” or “overlooked” by Islamic societies. Whereas, the “name” of the God in this Holy Scripture is actually mentioned in multiple verses of Quran – only not in its original language, but in Arabic.

Now, I am aware that this would bring its own controversy, which is actually not my intention. I essentially just want to explore this matter more rather than making some unnecessary sensation. However, realizing my own limitation as an ordinary human-being, I cannot do this alone. Thus, I am writing all this in this Quranic forum to ask for assistance or even invite anyone who are interesting in this particular matter to join me in researching the history based on the verses in Quran or, as I call it: the Quranic Version. The major purpose here is to find “solid evidences” of the historical elements mentioned in Quran. Is it possible? Well, you have read my lengthy writings (and sorry if it is boring). If you follow my writings, the verses in Quran actually does not contradict history in general – even with recent findings. It is even confirmed more the truth about the narration in the Quran itself. It is just that we have to know the “reference” we need among the verses of the Quran themselves and the methods that are actually very well implied within the verses of Quran.

However, judging from the recent mentality of Islamic world, I don't really think this could be well accepted - or even understood. As you may have known (well, at least those who hang out in this forum for some time), nowadays (or ever) the so-called Muslims actually rarely focus on their own Holy Scripture (Quran) as the main source of information. There are people like you who try to dig deeper information in Quran by analyzing its verses. But, people like you are actually a very small portion of the so-called Muslims in the world. I am sure you feel this too. Many may not even know what is inside the Quran. I believe this is why this site is established in the first place: to invite people to go back to Quran as the core of Islam. Is it easy to do so?

There are indeed observable major tendencies where outer sources outside the Quran has been acknowledged and understood as an inseparable part of religion too. Of course, all would have its own advantages and disadvantages. But, when this "outer sources" compromise the "truth" within the Quran itself, I do not think that is a "good" thing to happen for Islam itself. Take for instance my statement in the beginning of previous post, there is a big possibility where the narrations of history mentioned within verses of Quran are actually telling us about the ancient word: beyond the boundary of Arabic world or even the Semitic people - the way that the God mentioned in Quran might as well have been known by the ancient people, even far outside the limit of Arabian peninsula. Yet, how many Muslims are aware of this? And many are still struggled with the understanding that "Allah" is the "Exclusive Name" of God... How far actually we are left behind from the rest of the world with this mentality?

It is actually very pitiful to see the owner of the "Book" that can make them grow like "a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers" (48:29) is now act like a "closed seed". Why?

Why?

Well, for me, this simply answer the (what apparently rhetorical) question within the Quran itself: "And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?" (54:17, 54:22, 54:32, and 54:40). Well, in the end, aren't we the one to choose our own destiny? (8:53, 13:11)

By the way, without any-ill intention, I found this very interesting verse that I have not heard of before. I hope this verse could give us inspiration in keep learning and studying many things in the world! ;D

Quote
Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason [yaʿqilūna - in word to word translation:use (their) intellect]
(8:22)

For me, this verse is very inspiring. Reading this verse, I remember a saying by Indonesian national hero and, once, the leader of Islamic movement, HOS Tjokroaminoto: Semurni-murni Tauhid (the Purest of Tauhid), Setinggi-tinggi Ilmu (the highest of knowledge), and Sepintar-pintar Siasat (the Smartest Strategy).

I hope this words can inspire us to explore even more!  ;D ;D ;D

I seriously write this like anyone will ever read this... Ya udahlah ya, yang penting gw udah nyoba...

There are actually even more that I want to share – if you guys (and, maybe, ladies) allow me. Yet, for now, I will have to close this very long (and apparently not-that-interesting) discussion... Since, now is already three in the morning...

Hopefully, my writing can give you an insight about how valuable it is actually the information provided by the Quran

As usual, all mistakes are mine - solely mine - my responsibility. However, all good you find here must be coming from Quran. That is why you should keep learning the Quran and trying to understand it.

I apologize for any inconvenience you found in this writing - as if someone will ever read this ;D

Have a good day y'all!

Salamun Alaikum,



Ocyid, your Indonesian brother (I'm a male! a male!)
"I’ve had enough of someone else’s propaganda.…I’m for truth, no matter who tells it. I’m for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I’m a human being first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole." - Malcolm X (Chapter Nineteen, 1965)

Offline Ocyid

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Re: The "Names" of God in Ancient Texts (Part 3: The Almighty - All Wise)
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2018, 06:37:48 AM »
Note: Actually I did conduct my own research regarding the analysis I have presented here. And, every information I got I attached its source as a footnote. Yet, since I do not know how to make a footnote here, I will have to present it here as a list only. I have the MS Words version, but I can't give it to random people. So, sorry... I do hope I can give it to Mr. Joseph though, he might know what to do.

Reference
http://www.avesta.org/zfaq.html
https://www.ancient.eu/Ahura_Mazda/
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ahura-mazda#
https://sreenivasaraos.com/tag/varuna-and-ahura-mazda/
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ahura-mazda#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda
https://www.ancient.eu/Ahura_Mazda/
Journal of the American Academy of Religion, Volume XLVII, Issue 4, 1 December 1979, Pages 557–588, https://doi.org/10.1093/jaarel/XLVII.4.557. Published: 01 December 1979
https://falsewitnessblog.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/zoroastrianism-monotheistic-or-dualistic/#_ftn3
https://www.gatha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=362&Itemid=69&lang=en
http://www.zoroaster.com/index.htm
http://www.avesta.org/yasna
http://www.zoroaster.com/gatha.htm
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp
http://www.avesta.org/zfaq.html
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ahura-mazda#
https://www.ancient.eu/Ahura_Mazda/
https://sreenivasaraos.com/tag/varuna-and-ahura-mazda/
Bhargava, P. L. “THE WORD ASURA IN THE ṚGVEDA.” Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, vol. 64, no. 1/4, 1983, pp. 119–128. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41693045.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=12&verse=39#
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=27&verse=9
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=46&verse=12
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/avesta-holy-book
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/gathas-ii-translations
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/avesta-holy-book
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=25&verse=20 click the Arabic words for words-to-words translation
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=110
http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y45
http://www.zoroaster.com/Gatha/Ushtavad/gatha%2045.htm
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=283#(2:283:29)
http://avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y31
http://www.zoroaster.com/Gatha/Ahunavada/gatha%2031.htm
http://avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y33
http://www.zoroaster.com/Gatha/Ahunavada/gatha%2033.htm
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=18&verse=26
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=26#(18:26)
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=26#(18:26:10)
http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y31
http://www.zoroaster.com/Gatha/Ahunavada/gatha%2031.htm
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=57&verse=3
https://books.google.co.id/books?redir_esc=y&id=zB4n3MVozbUC&q=gathas#v=snippet&q=gathas&f=false

I hope this information is useful for you - or better yet, we can take a very good lesson from this information. Now, that would be (in its own) an achievement for us all!  ;D
"I’ve had enough of someone else’s propaganda.…I’m for truth, no matter who tells it. I’m for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I’m a human being first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole." - Malcolm X (Chapter Nineteen, 1965)