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Offline questionsislam

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Plastic Surgery
« on: February 18, 2019, 05:43:36 AM »
Hello,
   
    Brother Joseph, can you telling me your thoughts about plastic surgery and the ruling on this from a Quranic perspective? If anyone else has ideas/thoughts please feel free to inform me as well.

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2019, 02:55:58 PM »
Haram is a very strong word and one must be careful not to pronounce something 'haram' if it is not explicitly mentioned or strongly implied by the Quranic verses by strong analytical deduction.

Plastic Surgery in my opinion, does not violate any Quranic verse if and only if it is done for the purpose of reformation of parts of human body when distorted by any from of accidents.
It is somehow tantamount to a transgression, if done for passion or changing lifestyles or fashion as it defaces the creation of GOD "intentionally", which would arguably put it at tension with verses 4:118-119.

004:118-119 (Part)
"...and he said "Most certainly I will take of your servants an appointed portion: I will surely mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle and to deface the creation of God..."
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2019, 10:54:43 PM »
Haram is a very strong word and one must be careful not to pronounce something 'haram' if it is not explicitly mentioned or strongly implied by the Quranic verses by strong analytical deduction.

Plastic Surgery in my opinion, does not violate any Quranic verse if and only if it is done for the purpose of reformation of parts of human body when distorted by any from of accidents.
It is somehow tantamount to a transgression, if done for passion or changing lifestyles or fashion as it defaces the creation of GOD "intentionally", which would arguably put it at tension with verses 4:118-119.

004:118-119 (Part)
"...and he said "Most certainly I will take of your servants an appointed portion: I will surely mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle and to deface the creation of God..."

Dear Sstikstof,

As-salamu alaykum

In the main, I agree with your perspective.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 02:06:19 PM »
peace Joseph Islam and Sstikstof,

In addition to the verse quoted (4:118-119) also see verse 30:30

"So set your face to the system of monotheism (as) a submitter /Unifier of God/haneefan. God's nature/manner which He created/originated the people on it, (there is) no replacement/substitution to God's creation. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know."

Quote
Plastic Surgery in my opinion, does not violate any Quranic verse if and only if it is done for the purpose of reformation of parts of human body when distorted by any from of accidents.

but why accidents?

[42:30] "And what struck/hit you from a misfortune /disaster so (it is) because (of) what your hands gathered/acquired, and He forgives/pardons on much."

Did you ever think of such cases in prophet's time? e.g. accidents/ injuries in the war?

GOD can replace it if the person deserves it without the need of any surgery!

[96:6] Alas, that truly the human/mankind tyrannizes/exceeds the limit.
[96:7] That he considers him(self), he enriched/sufficed (self-sufficient).
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2019, 02:40:50 PM »
peace Joseph Islam and Sstikstof,

In addition to the verse quoted (4:118-119) also see verse 30:30

"So set your face to the system of monotheism (as) a submitter /Unifier of God/haneefan. God's nature/manner which He created/originated the people on it, (there is) no replacement/substitution to God's creation. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know."

Quote
Plastic Surgery in my opinion, does not violate any Quranic verse if and only if it is done for the purpose of reformation of parts of human body when distorted by any from of accidents.

but why accidents?

[42:30] "And what struck/hit you from a misfortune /disaster so (it is) because (of) what your hands gathered/acquired, and He forgives/pardons on much."

Did you ever think of such cases in prophet's time? e.g. accidents/ injuries in the war?

GOD can replace it if the person deserves it without the need of any surgery!

[96:6] Alas, that truly the human/mankind tyrannizes/exceeds the limit.
[96:7] That he considers him(self), he enriched/sufficed (self-sufficient).


Peace,
The Correct translation of Verse 30:30,
"So set your face to the religion upright. Nature made by Allah upon which He has created mankind on it. No change should there be in the creation of Allah....."
The verse is trying to acknowledge us that every creation of GOD is unique & most valuable & perfectly crafted. Any sort of artificial change could affect the perfect synchronization of such nature. But if I am not mistaken you are trying to express through the translation that, any sort of change/deface on GOD's creation is against the Quranic theme. Please be notified that 'accident' word was just one of the examples that may deface or change the creation of GOD. There are other incidents which deface or substitute the GOD's creation. If you burn an innocent person intentionally, his body structure will be defaced. That does not mean his deeds result him to face this. So, in order to make recovery, plastic surgery is needed as the world is much developed now to provide such aid. Now, if you claim that this surgery is just for fashion or for the purpose of defacing the perfect creation of GOD, your claim would be illogical.
 
Please note that, verse 42:30 is talking about facing any sort of misfortune/ trouble / difficulties that could be the result of one's mis-deeds in earthly environment. Troubles/Misfortunes like Loss of money, rejection from societies, capital punishments etc., but not Injuries in WAR, any accidental damage (Fallen from Horse/ from tree or drawn in river), Sickness or Loss of nearest one etc.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 03:36:46 PM »
If you burn an innocent person intentionally,...

peace,
Please don’t use/ try to avoid such kind of unhuman/hard-hearted examples.

Quote
If you burn an innocent person intentionally, his body structure will be defaced. That does not mean his deeds result him to face this.

GOD has given us free will to lead our lives as we wish, but the outcome of each of our actions is governed by the will of GOD - THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL. If God does not will for something to take place, it will not happen no matter how hard we try. And if He wills for something to occur, it will transpire no matter what we do to stop it.


If X harm Y intentionally/unintentionally, it happens because GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL letting X to do so, and Y deserves it.
But if Y do not deserves it/is innocent, then GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL will NEVER let X to do it.
Even if Y deserves it /is a sinner, X will definitely get punished by GOD for this evil deed (if he did it without cause /valid reason).

“...And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves (some of them with some), then the earth would have long been corrupted; but God has bestowed grace upon the worlds.” [2:251]


“...And your Lord is not at all unjust to His servants.” [41:46]

Do you think GOD is JUST only in the hereafter? Not in this world?

IS GOD NOT THE MOST JUDICIOUS OF THE JUDGES? [95:8]

 
Quote
Please note that, verse 42:30 is talking about facing any sort of misfortune/ trouble / difficulties that could be the result of one's mis-deeds in earthly environment. Troubles/Misfortunes like Loss of money, rejection from societies, capital punishments etc., but not Injuries in WAR, any accidental damage (Fallen from Horse/ from tree or drawn in river), Sickness or Loss of nearest one etc.

This is what an example how one can modify Qur’anic interpretation according to his own desires!

According to you, sicknesses, injuries in war, accidental damages etc. will not come under the misfortune mentioned in 42:30??? (also see 30:36, 30:41, 5:49, 4:79 etc.)
Can you provide a valid reason for this categorization?

Is GOD not seeing/knowing such ‘accidental’ things? (It is ‘accidental’ only in human view, but for GOD, everything is by HIS wills).
And is HE not able to save these people from such accidental things if they are innocents?
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2019, 01:34:45 PM »
If you burn an innocent person intentionally,...

peace,
Please don’t use/ try to avoid such kind of unhuman/hard-hearted examples.

Quote
If you burn an innocent person intentionally, his body structure will be defaced. That does not mean his deeds result him to face this.

GOD has given us free will to lead our lives as we wish, but the outcome of each of our actions is governed by the will of GOD - THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL. If God does not will for something to take place, it will not happen no matter how hard we try. And if He wills for something to occur, it will transpire no matter what we do to stop it.


If X harm Y intentionally/unintentionally, it happens because GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL letting X to do so, and Y deserves it.
But if Y do not deserves it/is innocent, then GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL will NEVER let X to do it.
Even if Y deserves it /is a sinner, X will definitely get punished by GOD for this evil deed (if he did it without cause /valid reason).

“...And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves (some of them with some), then the earth would have long been corrupted; but God has bestowed grace upon the worlds.” [2:251]


“...And your Lord is not at all unjust to His servants.” [41:46]

Do you think GOD is JUST only in the hereafter? Not in this world?

IS GOD NOT THE MOST JUDICIOUS OF THE JUDGES? [95:8]

 
Quote
Please note that, verse 42:30 is talking about facing any sort of misfortune/ trouble / difficulties that could be the result of one's mis-deeds in earthly environment. Troubles/Misfortunes like Loss of money, rejection from societies, capital punishments etc., but not Injuries in WAR, any accidental damage (Fallen from Horse/ from tree or drawn in river), Sickness or Loss of nearest one etc.

This is what an example how one can modify Qur’anic interpretation according to his own desires!

According to you, sicknesses, injuries in war, accidental damages etc. will not come under the misfortune mentioned in 42:30??? (also see 30:36, 30:41, 5:49, 4:79 etc.)
Can you provide a valid reason for this categorization?

Is GOD not seeing/knowing such ‘accidental’ things? (It is ‘accidental’ only in human view, but for GOD, everything is by HIS wills).
And is HE not able to save these people from such accidental things if they are innocents?

Please answer my few Questions,
1. If a child dies, is this because of the child's or someone's sin?
2. Earth Quake caught millions of lives to death. Is this because GOD's wrath fallen upon every each one of them?
3. During the performance of Hajj, many haji's die because of weakness or foot pressures or befall of constructive materials. Is this because of their early life sins?
4. What is your interpretation of this Quranic verse, "The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment." Quran 4:17-18.
5. If you do theft, commit crime or murder someone, is not the expected capital punishment a misfortune for you? Please note, Arabic 'musibat' comes from root word ص و ب which means 'disaster/trouble/catastrophe' & according to context of 42:30, this suits well.

Quite similar question has already been asked to this thread & already been replied. Check here >> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2661.0

I think this video will help you about how to grasp & ponder the Quranic messages & acknowledge the primary theme. Check here >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWXRf3b4utI. Please consider the referred video only, not the channel or other videos.

I have observed with humble that you guys are at the end of the day asking similar questions by twisting contextual relevant questions. I suspect that either you are in 'overthinking condition' or trying to confuse the 'readers' as well as the 'helpers'. Consider this a last reply of me in this thread.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 04:27:53 PM »
Responding again to you with your current view seems Nonsense. Learn and FOLLOW the Qur’an, you will find the answer.

peace.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 03:03:47 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum

Dear brother Mohamed

I would like to go over some point you have made and illustrate how I humbly feel that they are not in harmony with the Quranic message.

you mentioned

Quote
“but why accidents?

[42:30] "And what struck/hit you from a misfortune /disaster so (it is) because (of) what your hands gathered/acquired, and He forgives/pardons on much."

Did you ever think of such cases in prophet's time? e.g. accidents/ injuries in the war?”

There is confirmation in the Quran that believers had died in fighting for the sake of the Lord. There is also times where God has permitted believers to lay down their arms if they were sick.  There have been a war that believers also have lost.

So one would strongly assume there was many accidents and injuries in the prophets time.

And its true indeed what the verse you kindly shared informs us 42:30.

This should be looked at by the causes and effects of the nature of the world and the nature of the laws God has created.

The misfortune/disasters are indeed by what we have done by our own hands. We humans have a some understanding about the laws and nature of the world.

We can comprehend the dangers of riding a vehicle 200km/hr.

We understand and can assume what may happen if we are not clean, or we eat to much, or if we take intoxicants, or pollute the Earth, etc.

At times any tragedy could result from many of our own doings for sure.
It could even be illnesses, epidemics , disasters involving earthquakes, floods and so on. This COULD be also from the actions of the humans which is ultimately at the end that everything is from God who created everything.

However, if any good or better change comes after, we believers understand that it comes from God in any way or form. Whether from miracles of God or from causes and effects of the nature which God Himself arranged measured and ordained and knew before He even created the universe or whether it is from the causes and effects of technology and wisdom given to His creation. This would all fall in the category by God’s will.

God’s unfathomable wisdom is so perfect and infinite and by His will He could orchestrate and plan a universe before its even created from nothing with specific laws to carry out a zillion+ years of precise causes and effects that would result in every second what He wills of beings, planets, matter etc exactly when and to who, that would in turn be part of His will to create whether through evolution or not, to trial/test, balance, sustain, provide, check people for one another or give or take away from His creation to who ever as He pleases, to cause death or losses or gains etc . Thats just an example but I hope you see that what I’m saying. So even technology or from what has been provided on Earth or from our own handy work through causes and effects if we benefit at all in the right conduct it is ultimately from the Creator.


You asked “GOD can replace it if the person deserves it without the need of any surgery!”

A human body part that has been distorted and then to be replaced without the intervention of natural and worldly laws, surgery etc would be seen as a miracle and outside the realm of this world.

I would say that would be akin to what God willed and has given Jesus(pbuh) the ability to do to heal the blind, the leper and raise the dead.

Certainly God can replace it. But the Question is does God always intervene in the creation and laws He has made?

You will certainly find at times that He did. Those are from the miracles that He has given to the prophets afortime ago.

God indeed can do anything at any time as He wills. But there seems to be at the normal stage that God lets the natural laws of the world unravel and let the causes and effects take there place in the universe and human and the free will He has given him to do as he pleases within the confined laws so that God will judge the human for the actions that has taken place.

God makes it clear that He refrains from sending miracles because of the people before had denied them and they made no change.

17:59 "And We refrain from sending signs / miracles (Arabic: bil-ayati), only because the former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the signs by way of a warning"
 

you said
Quote
”If X harm Y intentionally/unintentionally, it happens because GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL letting X to do so, and Y deserves it.
But if Y do not deserves it/is innocent, then GOD -THE JUST, THE MERCIFUL will NEVER let X to do it.”

I would say I have to kindly disagree with you brother.

God’s judgments and punishments are not always carried out in this earthly abode.

We know from the Quran that some punishments are deferred to a future life.

We understand from the Quran that a certain group of people had killed the prophets and humankind who enjoin in equity unjustly. 3:21

This shows that God had let mankind carry out even transgressions on this earth and His punishment is to be promised to another life.

You said
Quote
“Do you think GOD is JUST only in the hereafter? Not in this world?”

Justice is not always dealt with in this world. This does not equate to God being unjust. In fact it shows that God has allowed the human to maneuver in this world with the will he/she is given with the restraints and confinements of the laws. So that he/she can be punished or rewarded for the actions in the next world.

Regarding the verse 2:251, God is making it clear that "He is the One and not by chance or the people's will" who replaces authority from certain people to another people on earth or else if it was left in the hands of a great mighty people who are transgressors/unjust/corruptors then the Earth would of long been destroyed or corrupt and there is no way to bring it back or to give another chance at the trials and the commands of God to another people. This is also in the same verse as when David slew Goliath which was apparent to believers that its by "God’s leave" that a small group can only defeat a large group.

And to confirm this as we note in the Quran God has given power and authority to the prophet Muhammad and his people and strengthened them with Angels that they did not see against the polytheists even though they were much more greater in number than them.

God asked the believer not to say that they were the ones who slayed them but it was God who did.

8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Thought I would share that for know to think about

Peace

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2019, 12:17:34 AM »
I suspect that either you are in 'overthinking condition'...

Another  doubt is here in (8:49)
“When/if the hypocrites and those who in their hearts/minds (there) is sickness/disease said: "Those, their dheen has deceived/tempted (them)." And who relies/depends on God, so then God (is) glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.

Of course, they couldn’t imagine/think/believe that (i.e. for example, group of 20 fighting group of 200!! -8:65.

But, it’s all about FAITH & PATIENCE.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 09:20:01 PM »
Dear All,

Please kindly note that a separate thread has been created from this point on and entitled: "Was Adam's Murdered Son Guilty or Innocent?"

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2746.0

Please kindly feel free to continue any dialogue relevant to this topic (Plastic surgery) on this thread.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joe

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Re: Plastic Surgery
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 11:28:14 PM »
Assalamu Alaykum,

Quote
Plastic Surgery in my opinion, does not violate any Quranic verse if and only if it is done for the purpose of reformation of parts of human body when distorted by any from of accidents.

Sorry, but for my understanding, how about some use cases because sometimes, it's not always an accident ? :
  • Someone who has been born without hair in his head and wanted to do a Hair transplantation
  • Someone who from the age of 15 began to lose his hair and wanted to do a Hair transplantation
  • An old women who wants to appear younger (to feel better)
  • A women who has not a chest at all
  • A malformation of some part of the body or the face
  • Removing a big mole in the face, it's safe, but it's not "Aesthetics"
  • Complete dental restoration because when they were young they didn't brush ;D
  • A men who wants to become a women, or women who wants to become a men (as they say "since they were born, the always felt they belonged to a different gender")

Sincerely,
Joe