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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: about sura74
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2012, 09:47:24 PM »
Dear All,

Salamun Alaikum.

This has indeed proved to be an emotional topic. Thanks for all that have contributed including of course, sister Chadiga who initiated the thread.

I deemed it appropriate to give my humble perspective again. For me, this is mainly an academic question with theological implications. I have, in line with the Quran's instructions to believers asked for clear proof. [1] If clear proof can be presented, I am happy to entertain any theological perspective. Otherwise, I have respectfully asked leave from this topic further.

The burden of proof is clearly with those that assert the theory. Here my demands for proof (and clear bayyan) has been presented already as follows which I feel is a fair reflection on what a believer should expect with such a claim.

  • To provide clear proof from the Quran alone that believers are required to explain the number 19.
  • To provide clear tangible proof, other than any related data utilised to support the 19 code theory (*), that there was ever an omission of verses 9:128-129 from any manuscript of the Quran that has ever existed to our collective knowledge.
  • To provide clear proof, other than any related data utilised to support the 19 code theory (*), that there is, or was ever, an omission of verses 9:128-129 from any authoritative recitation known throughout Islamic history till the present.

(*) The 19 code theory itself or its data cannot be admissible as proof as this would be tantamount to a circular argument. (e.g. 'The Bible is true because the Bible says so')

Finally, a more theological question also needs to be addressed. Is it 'fair' to accept the notion that the effort required for each believer to confirm the full scope of the 19 code with all its relevant counts and calculations, with or without a computer, is in keeping with the teachings of the Quran that asks believers to rely on clear matters which form the substance of the Book (3:7, 18:22)?

I have presented and documented my concerns in an article already presented in this thread, which can once again, be found below [2]

Personally, I have never denied the semblance of a pattern in the Quran, be it mathematical or otherwise. However, this particular 19 pattern seems to me to have been designed to lead one to a dead end where the result is to make fantastic claims to get the theory to conform, such as the removal of 2 verses of the Quran. This road is only embarked upon when one denies the Quran's basic instruction to rely on clear proof which forms the substance of the Book.  Once that is denied, then it is a dark, slippery road which I feel only leads to an inevitable end.

Sadly, it is the 'Achilles heel' of some great thinkers, who otherwise have a great Quran perspective.

In the end, only God knows best.

Regards,
Joseph.

References:

[1] BURDEN OF PROOF - PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ARGUMENT
http://quransmessage.com/articles/burdenofproof%20FM3.htm

[2] CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline chadiga

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Re: about sura74
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 10:30:12 PM »
Dear brother Joseph
i thank you much for your enlighted post. your approach is really very logical short and precise , so that (even i) can follow the logic :)

Quote
To provide clear proof from the Quran alone that believers are required to explain the number 19.
To provide clear tangible proof, other than any related data utilised to support the 19 code theory (*), that there was ever an omission of verses 9:128-129 from any manuscript of the Quran that has ever existed to our collective knowledge.
To provide clear proof, other than any related data utilised to support the 19 code theory (*), that there is, or was ever, an omission of verses 9:128-129 from any authoritative recitation known throughout Islamic history till the present.

1. only a support by the aya about it is nineteen.
2. no support
2.no support

Quote
is in keeping with the teachings of the Quran that asks believers to rely on clear matters which form the substance of the Book (3:7, 18:22)?
yes this point , how could i overlook this? :(

Thank you for your sabr and you clear me with this post the matter. shukran. salam

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: about sura74
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 05:54:16 PM »
Dear Chadiga,

Please do not feel that you cannot express yourself or ask certain questions here. I think that because the 19 theory is a sore point for many readers, they are just getting frustrated at the source of the theory, not you.

You have obviously read about it in detail, but I think that the forum members are saying that the code is not worth even considering because of the fact that it needs two verses of the Quran to be removed for it to succeed.

If this was not that case then I am sure people would discuss further.

Offline chadiga

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Re: about sura74
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 03:23:15 AM »
salam Truth Seeker
yes, i think this is the week and frustrated point , why they remove this two verses ?thank you.salam