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Offline s1c4r1us

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Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« on: August 25, 2019, 12:51:36 PM »
17:78? Is it reading the Quran? It says that the Quran at dawn is witnessed, which means that we read the Quran during prayer?

Reading the Quran fits 4:102. The sectarian way of praying doesn't fit 4:102 because they never ever have their leader praying their same prayer session for multiple times and the sectarian prayer was invented later on which can be found in the books of bukhari & co while the Quran is fully detailed and giving answers to everything we need to know for salvation.

Roekoeh and sjoedjoed in Arabic means to yield and submit. If you do a word for word study you will find out that they can't mean the physical bowing and kneeling which is done by the sectarians. It rather means to yield and submit to the Quran when it is being recited or read.

Mary used to submit and yield with those who yield and submit. The whole Bible, from the Torah until the Gospel, will not tell you anything about a prayer method which is done by the sectarians. They used to read the Book as well in their prayer sessions.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 12:35:45 AM »

So if sujood and rukuh don't mean the physical act of  bowing or prostrating, which arabic words do?

The Christians do kneel and bow plus the traditional Jewish prayer is very similar to the way the Muslim do.


The physical act of praying seems to bother so many quranists that they are changing the meaning of keys words and what we have in it's place doesn't 'fit' very well in my opinion.

So standing up in front of your Creator and physically bowing to Him to show your submission is beneath you?

Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 07:07:10 AM »

So if sujood and rukuh don't mean the physical act of  bowing or prostrating, which arabic words do?

The Christians do kneel and bow plus the traditional Jewish prayer is very similar to the way the Muslim do.


The physical act of praying seems to bother so many quranists that they are changing the meaning of keys words and what we have in it's place doesn't 'fit' very well in my opinion.

So standing up in front of your Creator and physically bowing to Him to show your submission is beneath you?

There is not such a thing in the Bible as a daily prayer which evolves physical bowing and kneeling. You should read the Bible from cover to cover.

We are actually returning to the original meaning of the words and the Quran. Go do a word for word study yourself.. you will find out roekoeh and soejoed mean to yield and submit.

God asked the Angels to submit to Adam. Soejoed is used here. Or do you think God asked the Angels to fall down on their foreheads to Adam, and do you think the Angels were following the writings of bukhari & co?
There is not even such a thing as falling down on your forehead in the Quran, there is only the falling down on their chins, which symbolizes how they reject their ego and pride and submit to the Truth.
Etc.

We yield and submit to what God told us. Bowing and kneeling is a pagan thing.

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 03:26:15 PM »
As you hold the stance that there is no physical act of bowing and prostrating in the previous scriptures, it is up to you to provide evidence and proof to us.

You should read the the Hebrew and Aramaic lexicons and show us here that there is no physical bowing, prostrating, kneeling etc.

Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 11:15:50 AM »
As you hold the stance that there is no physical act of bowing and prostrating in the previous scriptures, it is up to you to provide evidence and proof to us.

You should read the the Hebrew and Aramaic lexicons and show us here that there is no physical bowing, prostrating, kneeling etc.

Lol, you claim that the Gospel and Torah teach to bow and prostrate during a daily prayer. I told you that they don't teach such a thing, nor does the Quran teach such a thing.

There is a difference between reading in context and reading parts of Scripture with biased thoughts.


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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 12:31:45 PM »
You are making a claim here that the words for bowing and prostrating in the Quran do not ever mean a physical act.

You then expand this claim to the previous scriptures. As are trying to prove something against, you have to provide evidence, not me.

The irony is in your own statement to me :
Quote
There is a difference between reading in context and reading parts of Scripture with biased thoughts

You are being hypocritical in my opinion by only allowing one meaning for sujood and rukuh when there actually is more than one meaning ...so maybe you should be 'reading in context'

These Quranists that have an allergy to physical prayer have decided to translate the verses by 'reading parts of the Scripture with biased thoughts'

They are probably the same bunch who don't believe in Fasting or Hajj being physical acts!



Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 05:10:34 PM »
You are making a claim here that the words for bowing and prostrating in the Quran do not ever mean a physical act.

You then expand this claim to the previous scriptures. As are trying to prove something against, you have to provide evidence, not me.

The irony is in your own statement to me :
Quote
There is a difference between reading in context and reading parts of Scripture with biased thoughts

You are being hypocritical in my opinion by only allowing one meaning for sujood and rukuh when there actually is more than one meaning ...so maybe you should be 'reading in context'

These Quranists that have an allergy to physical prayer have decided to translate the verses by 'reading parts of the Scripture with biased thoughts'

They are probably the same bunch who don't believe in Fasting or Hajj being physical acts!

I believe in a physical pilgrimage to the Restricted Temple in Makkah in the four restricted months according to a luni-solar calendar and i believe the four restricted months begin when the month of scorching heat (ramadan) appears in July.

I base that understanding upon the meaning of the Arabic word "ramadan" and 6:96, 10:5 and 9:81 of the Quran.

I wish you the best in your studies.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 10:18:38 PM »
peace,

As a starting point it is important to have an accurate translation of the verses: [source]

Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed. [17:78]
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy. [17:79]

The "with it" (Arabic: bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic: quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20).

Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 06:12:37 AM »
peace,

As a starting point it is important to have an accurate translation of the verses: [source]

Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed. [17:78]
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy. [17:79]

The "with it" (Arabic: bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic: quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20).

"tahajjud prayer"?

I am like 6 years religious and i stopped 3 years ago with praying like the sunnis.

Like i said, i believe 17:78 has the detail of what prayer is, to read the Quran. It's that simple. It says the Quran at dawn is witnessed, so when we pray, we read the Quran.

I don't even bow and kneel like the sectarians, i learned that soejdoed and roekoeh mean to submit and yield to the Message of God when reading the Quran. The Quran teaches that Mary used to perform the sjoedjoed and roekoeh, the Gospel doesn't teach anything at all about a prayer that looks like that of the sectarian sunnis/shia. I am 100% sure that soedjoed and roekoeh mean to submit and yield to Gods Message when reading Them.
By the way i am not talking out of my neck here, the Arabic language supports this understanding and a word for word study on these words will confirm it.

Anyways, i wish you the best. That's my understanding.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2019, 05:19:20 PM »
Some examples from the previous scriptures:

KINGS:

1Kings 8:54   When Solomon had finished praying this entire prayer and supplication to the LORD,  he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his  hands spread toward heaven1Kings 8:55 And he stood and  blessed all the assembly of Israel with a loud voice, saying: 1Kings 8:56  “Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel,  according to all that He  promised;  not one word has  failed of all His good  promise, which He  promised through Moses His servant.

PSALMS:

Psa. 95:6-7 Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.

The words used are “proskyneisomen”or “worship”, and “prospesomen” which literally means “to fall down”. (proskynetarion = shrine; proskynetis = pilgrim)

LUKE: (refers to prophet Jesus)

Luke 22:39  And He came out and proceeded  as was His custom to  the Mount of Olives; and the disciples also followed Him. Luke 22:40  When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “ Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” Luke 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He  knelt down and began to pray, Luke 22:42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me;  yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2019, 11:13:38 AM »
peace,

As a starting point it is important to have an accurate translation of the verses: [source]

Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed. [17:78]
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy. [17:79]

The "with it" (Arabic: bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic: quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20).

"tahajjud prayer"?

I am like 6 years religious and i stopped 3 years ago with praying like the sunnis.

Like i said, i believe 17:78 has the detail of what prayer is, to read the Quran. It's that simple. It says the Quran at dawn is witnessed, so when we pray, we read the Quran.

I don't even bow and kneel like the sectarians, i learned that soejdoed and roekoeh mean to submit and yield to the Message of God when reading the Quran. The Quran teaches that Mary used to perform the sjoedjoed and roekoeh, the Gospel doesn't teach anything at all about a prayer that looks like that of the sectarian sunnis/shia. I am 100% sure that soedjoed and roekoeh mean to submit and yield to Gods Message when reading Them.
By the way i am not talking out of my neck here, the Arabic language supports this understanding and a word for word study on these words will confirm it.

Anyways, i wish you the best. That's my understanding.
Peace be upon you,
By reading your recent posts and logic, I am 100% certain that you are biggest fan of the most Controversial scholar 'Joseph Yaseen' who runs Quran-centric Channel on youtube. Who teaches a lot of un-realistic / illogical / alien arabic words and vocabularies based on root word only without the usage of any grammar. Who through his critical explanation powers, deviated so many persons and students & made them to stop praying physically which includes standing, bowing and prostrating. It is a matter of fact that, standing, bowing & prostrating are the root of all compulsory activities commanded by the Quran. So, because of one critical scholar with respect to search for daily life flexibility, a lot of people abandoning these as was done by the Children of Israel decades ago.

If Salat / Prayer does not exist, this verse provides powerful definition of such worship. After reading this verse normally with common arabic rendition, please re-think with common sense and ask yourself about what actually does it mean?
Quran 20:14,
"Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance."

Please be notified that, arabic 'fa-uʿ'bud'nī' came from root word ع ب د . In 2nd person masculine singular imperative verb form, it means 'to worship' & well attested to this meaning.
Definition of worship: The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
Similarly arabic root س ج د in 2nd person masculine plural imperative verb form goes as 'us'judū', which means to prostrate & well attested to this meaning.
Similar environment goes with rakʿah too.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2019, 03:57:29 PM »
peace Sstikstof,

s1c4r1us says "i believe 17:78 has the detail of what prayer is, to read the Quran. It's that simple. It says the Quran at dawn is witnessed, so when we pray, we read the Quran."

In your reply to their post, you seem to cite 20:14 as strong evidence for "salat=prayer" yet the evidence you bring is not strong at all. More accurately, what you present is simply one side of the story (the story you agree with aka confirmation bias).

Anyone can look up the roots you mentioned and see they have a much wider meaning than the ones you presented. We can also check the usage in Quran.

Further, it is rather obvious that reading Quran involves remembering God, thus fulfilling "for my remembrance" mentioned in 20:14. And if there was any doubt, see:

20:113 And it was such that We sent it down an Arabic revelation, and We cited in it the warnings, perhaps they will become aware or it will cause for them a remembrance*

*exact same word as used in 20:14.


#####

For those wishing to study any topic in Quran I recommend trying, as best one can, not to read with pre-conceived notions / bias, and apply a robust/systematic approach.

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2019, 07:09:45 PM »
peace Sstikstof,

s1c4r1us says "i believe 17:78 has the detail of what prayer is, to read the Quran. It's that simple. It says the Quran at dawn is witnessed, so when we pray, we read the Quran."

In your reply to their post, you seem to cite 20:14 as strong evidence for "salat=prayer" yet the evidence you bring is not strong at all. More accurately, what you present is simply one side of the story (the story you agree with aka confirmation bias).

Anyone can look up the roots you mentioned and see they have a much wider meaning than the ones you presented. We can also check the usage in Quran.

Further, it is rather obvious that reading Quran involves remembering God, thus fulfilling "for my remembrance" mentioned in 20:14. And if there was any doubt, see:

20:113 And it was such that We sent it down an Arabic revelation, and We cited in it the warnings, perhaps they will become aware or it will cause for them a remembrance*

*exact same word as used in 20:14.


#####

For those wishing to study any topic in Quran I recommend trying, as best one can, not to read with pre-conceived notions / bias, and apply a robust/systematic approach.
Peace be upon you old friend wakas :)
Firstly, What s1c4r1us wanted to express as best as i am observing, is that reading of Quran is equivalent to prayer / salat = follow closely of something (as root definition) and bowing, standing & prostrating is not necessary. Because this bowing and prostrating means (according to him) to simply yield and submit which voids any specific or certain physical acts. Fact is that, reading Quran at dawn and establishing prayer at the decline of the sun are two separate entities, not equivalent. Ofcourse we recite some verses of Quran during the prayer, but this is another topic and not related to this issue.

Verse 20:14 is 'one of' strong evidences that salat/prayer relates to a physical act or practice. If this is a weak reference then with respect to this verse what does the 'worship' mean that GOD wants to acknowledge us.

Both the prayer and reading of Quran fulfill the requirement of 'remembrance of GOD'. But this was not my topic and I have never conversed any related of this.

Please be notified that, Pre-convinced notion sometimes helps vastly to re-arrange or solve the alleged and tangled theology. Any critical arguments or opposed logic can be captured & refined into  actual manner if you have any pre-convinced notions. In this case, it has to become truthful in intention and in line with normal human nature.
Please note too, Even Prophet Muhammad had pre-convinced notion which was 'millat-e-ibrahim'.

At the end of the day, I respect your assiduous. Every steps of our lives we do mistake including me. Pardon is much due if something of mine do hurt your theology. We all are servant of Allah the Almighty.

 
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Quranic way of praying? Is it reading the Quran? 17:78?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2019, 07:45:20 PM »

So if sujood and rukuh don't mean the physical act of  bowing or prostrating, which arabic words do?

The Christians do kneel and bow plus the traditional Jewish prayer is very similar to the way the Muslim do.


The physical act of praying seems to bother so many quranists that they are changing the meaning of keys words and what we have in it's place doesn't 'fit' very well in my opinion.

So standing up in front of your Creator and physically bowing to Him to show your submission is beneath you?

There is not such a thing in the Bible as a daily prayer which evolves physical bowing and kneeling. You should read the Bible from cover to cover.

We are actually returning to the original meaning of the words and the Quran. Go do a word for word study yourself.. you will find out roekoeh and soejoed mean to yield and submit.

God asked the Angels to submit to Adam. Soejoed is used here. Or do you think God asked the Angels to fall down on their foreheads to Adam, and do you think the Angels were following the writings of bukhari & co?
There is not even such a thing as falling down on your forehead in the Quran, there is only the falling down on their chins, which symbolizes how they reject their ego and pride and submit to the Truth.
Etc.

We yield and submit to what God told us. Bowing and kneeling is a pagan thing.

Administrator Joseph A Islam already expressed the reason behind the prostration of angles before Adam(pbuh). Please read,

.................... The ‘Malaika’ (angels) enquired as to why God was to create a vicegerent (Khalifa) on the Earth that would create mischief and cause much bloodshed (2:30). God explained this through a process of making the truth absolutely clear to them. He presented evidence of His wisdom by using Adam (pbuh) as an example and the knowledge that He taught him (2:31 and 2:33). The 'Malaika' (angels) accepted the argument and proclaimed God's perfection in knowledge and wisdom (2:32)

After this, the order to prostate was given which the 'Malaika' (angels) accepted (2:34)

It was only after the truth was first manifested by God and after which the 'Malaika' had no reason to deny it, they accepted that only God knew best and prostrated upon order. It is interesting to note that God did not instruct the 'Malaika' to prostrate without 'first' making the truth absolutely clear to them as to what He was about to do and to demonstrate the reason why..............


See this article for more info. http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!