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Offline Student

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Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« on: August 30, 2019, 04:04:04 AM »
Salaamun Alaykum,

Are the ayahs 73:2 & 73:20 is referring to special nightly "Salah" that has come to known as Tahajjud (17:79)? If so, the word salah is absent from both these verses, so how and why Qum is taken to mean standing in prayer only? Also, 73:4 refers Quran in order and then immediately in 73:5 it says it will reveal heavy word? Kind of confused and unable to reconcile with traditional interpretations.

Any help in clarification is appreciated.

Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Wakas

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2019, 05:49:01 PM »
the word salat does appear in 73:20

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2019, 07:06:44 PM »
Sorry you're right, I mean to say the word salah in 73:20 comes as a separate/new statement (command to uphold these 3: salah, zakah, lend loan) but not in the text where people interpret/interpolate it as nightly tahajjud salah. Hope this clear up my question based on that observation. Thanks for the correction.


Literal
(Word by Word)   73:2    
Stand (in) the night, except a little,

Traditional  73:2    
Stand all night ˹in prayer˺ except a little—

Literal
(Word by Word) 73:20
Indeed, your Lord knows that you stand (a little) less than two-thirds (of) the night, and half of it and a third of it and (so do) a group of those who (are) with you. And Allah determines the night and the day. He knows that not you count it, so He has turned to you, so recite what is easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be among you sick and others traveling in the land seeking of (the) Bounty (of) Allah, and others fighting in (the) way (of) Allah. So recite what is easy of it, and establish the prayer and give the zakah and loan Allah a loan goodly. And whatever you send forth for yourselves of good, you will find it with Allah. It (will be) better and greater (in) reward. And seek forgiveness (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Traditional (as example) 73:20
Surely, your Lord knows that you stand (to pray at night) a little less than 2/3rd of the night, or ½ of the night, or 1/3rd of the night, also a party of those with you. And Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you can never calculate it (unable to pray the whole night), so He has turned to you (in Mercy). So, recite from the Qur’an as much as may be easy for you. He knows that there may be some sick among you, and some others who travel through the land to seek Allah’s Bounty; and yet, some others who fight in Allah’s cause. So recite as much of it (Qur’an) as may be easy for you, establish prayer, pay obligatory charity, and lend to Allah a goodly loan. And whatever good you will send before you (leave the world) for yourselves, you will certainly find it with Allah, which is better and greater in reward. And seek the forgiveness of Allah. Surely, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Wakas

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2019, 06:38:37 PM »
Sometimes trying to reconcile traditional interpretations may not work because they can't be reconciled. In any case, here is the thread where I posted a more accurate translation of 17:78-79

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2804.msg14325#msg14325

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2019, 07:06:24 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum student

The verse your inquiring about seems to catch a period where the prophet and some of those following him are staying up the night either studying or reading the Quran.

God is telling him that He is aware of the amount of time they are up during the night and that they do not keep count but God does.

Although God did instruct the prophet with a heavy job at the beginning of the chapter which requires the prophet to organize or arrange the Quran and possibly also reffering to the task of prophethood in a whole, God then seems to give some guidance or release the task that they were doing on how to study or read the Quran and said to only recite what is easy as there is those that are sick and those that are fighting and those that have to work and travel. 

It further clarifies that to recite what is easy and pray and pay the dues and  lend to God a goodly lending and that any thing you bring forth as good deeds you will find it with God.

So therefore this verse seems to be showing how the prophet and those with him how they were engaging with the Quran.

The tahajjad is in another chapter which was an additional requirement only for the prophet on either an additional prayer or a task imposed only for him which could also be reffering to reading the Quran.

Peace

Offline Student

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2019, 07:42:48 AM »
Thanks br Wakas. Are you referring to this?
peace,

As a starting point it is important to have an accurate translation of the verses: [source]

Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed. [17:78]
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy. [17:79]

The "with it" (Arabic: bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic: quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20).

I do not see your translation of 73:20. Also, I've read your article refuting 5 salah position. I've some clarifications to be had from you, if you kindly provide:

  • You subscribe to 2 daily salah, is it correct? If so, kindly list all the verses with your translation that support your view, here.
  • The word salah means bond - what kind of bond you're taking - business bond, oath bond, religious bond, social/community bond? Does it change with the context?
  • Does salah also mean any of the 2 prayers you subscribe to or it always means some bond?
  • Lastly, what's Tahajjud according to your understanding? Is it prayer or not? And if 73:20 is not referring to tahajjud what's being asked in it?

Also, if you could please provide and keep answers here itself and not send me to any external links that would be great  :)
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Wakas

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2019, 04:33:15 PM »
peace Student,

Re: 1) for the mumineen, yes. For verse translations see my articles. I am not aware of any verse contrary to this position.

2) this is elucidated in my salat article. Have you read it?

3) I'm not sure what you mean, but I do not take salat to mean prayer.

4) I already provided you with an accurate translation of 17:78-79. Since you did not dispute anything in it, can I assume you agree with the following quote:
"Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20)."
If so, it will likely make understanding 73:20 easier.


"the tahajjud prayer" is a myth (predicated on an inaccurate translation).

Offline Student

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 12:11:05 AM »
Peace br Wakas,

Thanks for the quick response  :)

Yes, I've read your[Salat] more than once (twice in fact in last two days). This is my observation, correct me if wrong:
1. The article in the main is focused on refuting the points/arguments presented by Sir Joseph Islam and not your view of 2 salat (although this can be gleaned with difficulty)
2. I didn't find the word "bond" at all much less as a definition of salat in the entire article.
3. I didn't find your translation of 2 salat verses or any other verses. You've only highlighted and discussed parts of the verses where Joseph Islam made inaccurate translation.

and hence my (last set of) questions, which you kindly and quickly responded (thanks). Please see my comments in blue underneath for further clarifications:
Re: 1) for the mumineen, yes. For verse translations see my articles. I am not aware of any verse contrary to this position.
 I didn't find your translation in [Salat]. Can you please list and translate all the verses that shows 2 salat concept?

2) this is elucidated in my salat article. Have you read it?
Yes, I did. As I said above I simply don't find the word bond in it but I did in your arguments in many threads on salat discussion. So I asked which bond is it you're referring to?

3) I'm not sure what you mean, but I do not take salat to mean prayer.
I'm totally confused now by your above statement. On one hand you seems to subscribe to salat al-fajr and salat al-Isha as prayers in the [Salat] article. Isn't it? If you do not take salat as prayer then what Quranic word you believe is used for 2 prayers that you believe to be correct? And what's the definition of the word salat?

4) I already provided you with an accurate translation of 17:78-79. Since you did not dispute anything in it, can I assume you agree with the following quote:
"Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20)."
If so, it will likely make understanding 73:20 easier.

I'm still studying and researching on this subject (Tahajjud) and hence I started this thread with a request for clarifications.


"the tahajjud prayer" is a myth (predicated on an inaccurate translation).
That's exactly what I'm set out to find for myself, Inshallah :)

I humbly recommend you to make another article in addition to [problems of 5 salat] laying your argument for 2 prayers in flowing and complete form for readers benefit as you keep referring this link for all salat debates. This is just out of my humble observation.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Student

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2019, 12:12:54 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum student

The verse your inquiring about seems to catch a period where the prophet and some of those following him are staying up the night either studying or reading the Quran.

God is telling him that He is aware of the amount of time they are up during the night and that they do not keep count but God does.

Although God did instruct the prophet with a heavy job at the beginning of the chapter which requires the prophet to organize or arrange the Quran and possibly also reffering to the task of prophethood in a whole, God then seems to give some guidance or release the task that they were doing on how to study or read the Quran and said to only recite what is easy as there is those that are sick and those that are fighting and those that have to work and travel. 

It further clarifies that to recite what is easy and pray and pay the dues and  lend to God a goodly lending and that any thing you bring forth as good deeds you will find it with God.

So therefore this verse seems to be showing how the prophet and those with him how they were engaging with the Quran.

The tahajjad is in another chapter which was an additional requirement only for the prophet on either an additional prayer or a task imposed only for him which could also be reffering to reading the Quran.

Peace

Walekum salaam,
br Hamzeh,

Thanks for sharing your understanding of the ayahs  :)
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Wakas

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Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2019, 09:23:09 PM »
peace Student,

When I asked have you read my salat article I was not referring to the one you referenced. In the one you referenced I clearly state the following:

Quote
Important note: whilst my view is that The Quran does not state 5 salat daily (read my view on salat here), that does not mean I consider it wrong for a mumin/believer to uphold 5. It does not matter to me what a fellow brother/sister does when it comes to their personal relationship with God. My only issue arises when claims are made, such as "Quran states 5".

I have highlighted it in red for you.