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Offline Lobotomize94

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I would also appreciate the help of JosephIslam on this one if possible!

Let's say you are uncertain as to whether Christianity or Islam is true.

Islam says in [Quran 2:62] that Christians and Jews will go to heaven.

Christianity says that anyone who does not believe Jesus died for our sins will not go to heaven.

So therefore, if you become a Christian, believe Jesus died for your sins, but do not believe Jesus is God, you are saved to paradise in BOTH Christianity and Islam (because in Islam, Christians go to heaven). Note: Many Christians are Unitarian and do not believe Jesus is God.

So, shouldn't one become Christian for extra protection/Insurance?

Judaism (Jewish) does not believe in hellfire, so not being Jewish is not a risk. So should't we become Christian to be safe from hell? Quran says Christians will go to heaven.

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2020, 12:08:36 PM »
Peace  Lobotomize94.

There is only one religion: (Islam to GOD not Islam the religion of the so called Muslims). Islam to GOD is a state of mind and can be found in all man s religions Judaism,Christianity, Traditional Islam,Hinduism...etc. It can even be found with people who have no religion.

So if one is  a christian or any religion is irrelevant as long as they:
-Believe in GOD.
-Believe they are accountable-A day of judgement-.
-Do good deeds and have good morals.
These are the minimum criteria to be saved according to Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 01:17:42 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Good logic

It appears from your comments that Islam is just a system or religion that is self imposed or that it does not need to be implemented on a societal level as you stated that it can be found with people who have no religion.


You said
Quote
So if one is  a christian or any religion is irrelevant as long as they:
-Believe in GOD.
-Believe they are accountable-A day of judgement-.
-Do good deeds and have good morals. 

As though these are great deeds to have in a person I ask what about if one was to reject the Old and New Testaments and the Quran but still believes in a God but not the god of Abraham, not the God who has been sending down revelations and messengers with the same message, but does good deeds and has good morals and believes in a judgement day? Does this amount that one is following Islam?

So in other words a person would believe in a one higher power but does not agree that it's the one who sent the Scriptures that we have today and does good deeds and has good morals and believes in a judgment day would that be considered Islam?

Not to get into a debate but just want to point out that Islam is a entity of it's own that requires a set of specific beliefs and commands from Scripture.

Although what you pointed out is without question and doubt a great position and very good character in a person and of course God does give the rewards to the doers of good. But it should be distinguished between the specific continuous chain of guidance that has been revealed by the One same God "Islam".

Salam

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 10:58:57 AM »
Peace Hamzeh.
Thank you for your inquiry brother.
Please clarify the following for me from Qoran, if possible, quote:

"Not to get into a debate but just want to point out that [Islam is a entity of it's own that requires a set of specific beliefs and commands from Scripture]"

As far as I know believing in Qoran requires a set of specific beliefs and commands , but one can be a Muslim to GOD if they are from other religions or not. The minimum requirement is:

Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" Such is their wishful thinking. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."
وَقالوا لَن يَدخُلَ الجَنَّةَ إِلّا مَن كانَ هودًا أَو نَصٰرىٰ تِلكَ أَمانِيُّهُم قُل هاتوا بُرهٰنَكُم إِن كُنتُم صٰدِقينَ
Indeed, those who submit themselves absolutely to God alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.*
بَلىٰ مَن أَسلَمَ وَجهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ
 Submission to GOD is not the so called "Islam" religion of the Muslim Umma. It can be done by anyone anywhere from any religion or not.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline ahmad

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2020, 04:58:55 PM »
Dear Lobotomize94,

I understand where you are coming from regarding your question.
But I feel there is a more fundamental issue that needs to be discussed.

You see, from my humble perspective, belief is not an insurance as viewed by some. In the sense of a plan that one signs at a stage of their life. Forgets about it and lives on. I can say with certitude, and I believe many would agree. Faith is a huge responsiblity.

A responsibility that a few as attested by the Quran are truly willing to bear its consequences. [38:24]

Sometimes to preserve this God-given light, one must be willing to be at odds with many of whom are close to their hearts. Many times one must be at odds with their ownselves. [9:24]

Belief is not a one time experience. It's an everlasting struggle present during ease and hardship until our last breath. [15:99]

It's a path traveled by a few. Therefore, I believe basing one's belief on peripheral or superficial cues without spending the time engaging with the central arguments of each school of thought. Will only produce a casual follower that is easily swayed by popular opinion or those with alleged authority—someone who will not be willing to pay all the dues required by claiming real belief. [29:2]

The world may be becoming more complicated, but the requirement for guidance has always remained simple.

[37:83] And indeed, among his kind was Abraham,[37:84]
When he came to his Lord with a sound heart

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2020, 05:16:15 PM »
Peace Hamzeh.
You also ask this, quote:

"... I ask what about if one was to reject the Old and New Testaments and the Quran but still believes in a God but not the god of Abraham, not the God who has been sending down revelations and messengers with the same message, but does good deeds and has good morals and believes in a judgement day? Does this amount that one is following Islam?"

There are all sorts of permutations that we cannot possibly unravel unless we know the deep convictions and the inner thoughts of people.
So many disagree about interpretations  of all the three scriptures .which ones are rejecting parts of these scriptures if they have different interpretations about them?
For example you and I may disagree about the meaning of different verses in Qoran, If we both claim sincerity which one of us is rejecting the parts we disagree with if one of us is correct with the meaning? Or we can be both wrong,hence both of us are rejecting the right interpretation?
Brother ,I leave the judging of people to GOD Alone. why?
Because GOD says so:

It is not up to you; He may redeem them, or He may punish them for their transgressions.
لَيسَ لَكَ مِنَ الأَمرِ شَىءٌ أَو يَتوبَ عَلَيهِم أَو يُعَذِّبَهُم فَإِنَّهُم ظٰلِمونَ
To God belongs everything in the heavens and the earth. He forgives whomever He wills, and punishes whomever He wills. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
وَلِلَّهِ ما فِى السَّمٰوٰتِ وَما فِى الأَرضِ يَغفِرُ لِمَن يَشاءُ وَيُعَذِّبُ مَن يَشاءُ وَاللَّهُ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ

 GOD does not lie, those with the minimum criteria will be saved.

Rather I see this attributes of the righteous regarding all the people of the world:

You should eagerly race towards forgiveness from your Lord and a Paradise whose width encompasses the heavens and the earth; it awaits the righteous,
وَسارِعوا إِلىٰ مَغفِرَةٍ مِن رَبِّكُم وَجَنَّةٍ عَرضُهَا السَّمٰوٰتُ وَالأَرضُ أُعِدَّت لِلمُتَّقينَ
who give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. God loves the charitable.
الَّذينَ يُنفِقونَ فِى السَّرّاءِ وَالضَّرّاءِ وَالكٰظِمينَ الغَيظَ وَالعافينَ عَنِ النّاسِ وَاللَّهُ يُحِبُّ المُحسِنينَ
If they fall in sin or wrong their souls, they remember God and ask forgiveness for their sins - and who forgives the sins except God - and they do not persist in sins, knowingly.
وَالَّذينَ إِذا فَعَلوا فٰحِشَةً أَو ظَلَموا أَنفُسَهُم ذَكَرُوا اللَّهَ فَاستَغفَروا لِذُنوبِهِم وَمَن يَغفِرُ الذُّنوبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَلَم يُصِرّوا عَلىٰ ما فَعَلوا وَهُم يَعلَمونَ
Their recompense is forgiveness from their Lord, and gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. What a blessed reward for the workers!
أُولٰئِكَ جَزٰؤُهُم مَغفِرَةٌ مِن رَبِّهِم وَجَنّٰتٌ تَجرى مِن تَحتِهَا الأَنهٰرُ خٰلِدينَ فيها وَنِعمَ أَجرُ العٰمِلينَ

GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 01:30:50 AM »
Peace Good logic

As you kindly shared that 2:112 "whoever surrenders(Aslama) his purpose to God while doing good, his reward is with his Lord, and there shall be no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve"

But I am not arguing on the basis that if a person outside the fold of Islam is going to enter heaven or not.

That is only and ultimately up to the Almighty God. That is not what I was disputing neither would I ever do that.


I was just making it clear that the system of God (Islam) should be recognized through the Scriptures He has sent to us and its different than other religions/systems. Because you said that Islam can be found in any religion or people with no religion at all. I don't agree with that.

There is evidence in the Quran that only what was send down from God through the prophets and messengers was the correct religion and that is the system/religion that is correct which is Islam and there are systems/religions that are not correct.

The system/religion that is correct is Islam.

3:19 The Religion/System(Deen) before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

Some systems/religions are not correct.

9:33 It is He Who has sent His messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, to proclaim it over all religion/systems(Deen), even though the Idolaters may detest it”

What was sent down to all the prophets and messengers were correct systems/religions

3:84 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

3:85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Also to sum it up to Lobotomize94, Christians and Jews who follow the Scriptures in truth are part of the system of God(Islam)(42:13). The Scriptures that God has revealed all are a category of Islam. There is no need to label your self a Christian or Jew neither is it wrong to identify yourself as one.

The messengers where all under one system Islam.

Each one of them was ordered that they should establish the system "Islam" which is confirmed in verse 3:19 and it was also chosen for prophet Muhammad and his people in 5:3 and that do not be divided in it.

42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).


I thought it would be important to point that out as I find what God has sent down should be distinguished between man made religions/systems and that it is not something that can be just picked out from the whims of people.

The system of God does contain certain laws and duties that believers are required to undertake and implement which is found in Scripture. However there is no compulsion in religion/system and neither am I saying that a non-believer will not be going to heaven or have salvation or not.

May God bless you too

Salam

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 11:47:31 AM »
Peace Hamzeh.
There is no argument from my part to this quote:

"The system of God does contain certain laws and duties that believers are required to undertake and implement which is found in Scripture. However there is no compulsion in religion/system and neither am I saying that a non-believer will not be going to heaven or have salvation or not."

However, a Muslim to GOD can be from any religion or from no religion. Only GOD knows the true inner most thoughts.
Noah and Abraham had different rules, different religions have different rules, GOD knows that  and that  is why there is a common system of the belief in one GOD and the following of the "straight path"-good deeds and good morals- in all the sects  and all humanity.
 
As far as I am concerned GOD makes this clear in Qoran. Since you say, quote:

"I was just making it clear that the system of God (Islam) should be recognized through the Scriptures He has sent to us and its different than other religions/systems. Because you said that Islam can be found in any religion or people with no religion at all. I don't agree with that."

Then GOD has answered both of us here:

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in God and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَالَّذينَ هادوا وَالصّٰبِـٔونَ وَالنَّصٰرىٰ مَن ءامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَاليَومِ الـٔاخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صٰلِحًا فَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ

And 22:17.
 So here is what I say to you brother;
You and I are not wakeel over people nor can we make assumptions that have no basis  on who can can be a true Muslim to GOD. Anyone who is peaceful and a good human is not the "enemy" why should we label "non believers" according to our faulty understanding?

Of course you are entitled to your views and understanding, but I make no difference between you and me as far as our disagreement is concerned, you are still my brother united in our beliefs in the One GOD.
Actually I am many congregations and sects, Or shall I say I have no sect. Our universal unity comes from the big factor:"GOD ALONE as authority, no idols"
All the sects and factions "GOD is the one who will judge among them on the day of Resurrection. GOD witnesses all things.”
Thank you for the conversation brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.




Offline Hamzeh

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 10:29:14 PM »
Peace Good logic


Im not trying to make this conversation a lengthy one and I'm regretting that I even got into this conversation in the first place to be honest because you are making it look like I have said or implied something that I did not.

you said
Quote
However, a Muslim to GOD can be from any religion or from no religion. Only GOD knows the true inner most thoughts.

Of course and never did I reject that. Muslims, Mu'mins(believers) are different topic that Islam.

My point was that there maybe other systems/religions that may over lap with Islam in some areas of ruling or beliefs, but they are not Islam. Dictatorship ruling, or communism or other systems modern or not despite their belief in God is still not Islamic. There maybe muslims in those systems but they are not Islamic systems. No more no less. Islam is any ruling that comes from any of the Scriptures God has sent down. Noah, Abraham, Mosses, Jesus and Muhammad (pbut) all were sent with an Islamic ruling.

Christianity, Judaism, have a Scripture that they are commanded to judge with. If they do, they would be enjoining in a Islamic ruling or in more of a english terminology they are ruling by the system of God. Which is:

3:19 The Religion/System(Deen) before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

42:13(part) The same religion(deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - that which We have sent by inspiration to thee(O'Muhammad) - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus : Namely, that ye should establish the religion(deen), and make no divisions therein:...


Any other systems are not Islamic, and to make this clear, crystal clear I am not saying that those who live in a non-Islam system is not a Muslim or a believer. It seems to me you think Islam is the same as a muslim.

We as muslims should understand what Islamic systems are since we are readers of the Book.

For example they are systems that would include, establishment of prayers, establishment of zakat, establishment for laws regarding marriage, divorce, inheritance, corruption, punishments, war, politics, enjoining in the good and forbidding the evil, democracy etc.

I am also not saying that Islam must be forced into law, as their is no compulsion in the system and also one is not forbidden to live under other systems as long as one is not oppressed.

May God bless you and salam

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2020, 12:15:28 PM »
Peace Hamzeh.

From my part ,I do not want to prolong this also, So I will make this last point amicably brother;
 Let me first quote you below:

"Christianity, Judaism, have a Scripture that they are commanded to judge with. If they do, they would be enjoining in a Islamic ruling or in more of a english terminology they are ruling by the system of God.hich is: ..."

Christianity, Judaism, Traditional Islam as far as Qoran is concerned were  made up religions. GOD has never authorized any of these religions. This is where the problem of religions arises. They are man made:
http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/

There is only one religion "Islam to GOD Alone". GOD in Qoran is inviting all humanity to follow this one simple and consistent religion . The diversity and different rules are not the issue, the issue is to accept GOD Alone as the only authority, follow the straight path to become a good soul. Anyone from any walk of life or religion can take up this "Islam to GOD, regardless of our man made religions , sectarism and racism.

Hope that clarifies for you this point.
Thank you for your replies.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2020, 04:17:38 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum Good logic

I would like to ask you a couple questions

Do you agree that God has prescribe rulings that deal with marriage, divorce, inheritance, punishments, repentance, amendments, corruption, theft, politics, treaties, taxes, wars, testimonies, etc


Do you agree that God has commanded that those laws need to be implemented by those who are believers and in authority and if they don't and they cut off what God has ordered to be joined they would be losers possibly even disbelievers(2:27, 5:43-48)

Do you believe that an individual is able to implement Quranic commands on a individual level? Like is one able to carry out rulings such as punishments, marriage, inheritance on a individual level or do you think this must be considered under a community or societal level?

If you may kindly answer those questions it would be very appreciated.

You said

Quote
"The diversity and different rules are not the issue, the issue is to accept GOD Alone as the only authority, follow the straight path to become a good soul."


May you kindly explain to me how can having different rulings/laws than what God alone has commanded  in the Quran be the same as accepting God alone as the only authority?


Being on a straight path to becoming a good soul is an attribute of a Muslim and mu'mins. Who is and who isn't a muslim is not the topic but just to clarify it can be anyone from any culture or system/religion that believes in the God of the universe. But this is not the scope of the subject as you have indicated that Islam is a state of mind and can be found in people who have no religion or in any religion.

But if you can answer those questions that would be most appreciated and then we can either continue or possibly just agree to disagree

Salam

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2020, 11:25:14 AM »
Peace Hamzeh.

You ask, quote:
Do you agree that God has prescribe rulings that deal with marriage, divorce, inheritance, punishments, repentance, amendments, corruption, theft, politics, treaties, taxes, wars, testimonies, etc

My answer: Yes.

Do you agree that God has commanded that those laws need to be implemented by those who are believers and in authority and if they don't and they cut off what God has ordered to be joined they would be losers possibly even disbelievers(2:27, 5:43-48)

MY ANSWER:: You are talking about "believers" in Qoran . Different subject than "Muslim to GOD".  "Muslim" existed before Qoran.  What about Christians and Jews s? What about followers of other messengers in the past  that Qoran has not told us about?

Do you believe that an individual is able to implement Quranic commands on a individual level? Like is one able to carry out rulings such as punishments, marriage, inheritance on a individual level or do you think this must be considered under a community or societal level?

MY ANSWER: Irrelevant . an individual can be a "Muslim to GOD" That is what we are talking about here. If the individual believes in Qoran ,they are allowed to do what is "possible". Yes or no depending on the circumstances in the way they live among their society.
 
Also according to Qoran, GOD makes it clear that all humans are here to  "Ubudu GOD Alone".
GOD explains  further that "Ubudu GOD" is the straight path.  " Wa Ani UBUDUNI, Hadha SIRATUN MUSTQUEEM".
What is the straight path:
Say, "God possesses the most powerful argument; if He wills He can guide all of you."
قُل فَلِلَّهِ الحُجَّةُ البٰلِغَةُ فَلَو شاءَ لَهَدىٰكُم أَجمَعينَ

Say, "Bring your witnesses who would testify that God has prohibited this or that." If they testify, do not testify with them. Nor shall you follow the opinions of those who reject our revelations, and those who disbelieve in the Hereafter, and those who stray away from their Lord.
قُل هَلُمَّ شُهَداءَكُمُ الَّذينَ يَشهَدونَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ حَرَّمَ هٰذا فَإِن شَهِدوا فَلا تَشهَد مَعَهُم وَلا تَتَّبِع أَهواءَ الَّذينَ كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَالَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِالـٔاخِرَةِ وَهُم بِرَبِّهِم يَعدِلونَ

Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
قُل تَعالَوا أَتلُ ما حَرَّمَ رَبُّكُم عَلَيكُم أَلّا تُشرِكوا بِهِ شَيـًٔا وَبِالوٰلِدَينِ إِحسٰنًا وَلا تَقتُلوا أَولٰدَكُم مِن إِملٰقٍ نَحنُ نَرزُقُكُم وَإِيّاهُم وَلا تَقرَبُوا الفَوٰحِشَ ما ظَهَرَ مِنها وَما بَطَنَ وَلا تَقتُلُوا النَّفسَ الَّتى حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلّا بِالحَقِّ ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ

You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity. You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means. You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives. You shall fulfill your covenant with God. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed.
وَلا تَقرَبوا مالَ اليَتيمِ إِلّا بِالَّتى هِىَ أَحسَنُ حَتّىٰ يَبلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَأَوفُوا الكَيلَ وَالميزانَ بِالقِسطِ لا نُكَلِّفُ نَفسًا إِلّا وُسعَها وَإِذا قُلتُم فَاعدِلوا وَلَو كانَ ذا قُربىٰ وَبِعَهدِ اللَّهِ أَوفوا ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَذَكَّرونَ

This is My path - a straight one. You shall follow it, and do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from His path. These are His commandments to you, that you may be saved.
وَأَنَّ هٰذا صِرٰطى مُستَقيمًا فَاتَّبِعوهُ وَلا تَتَّبِعُوا السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُم عَن سَبيلِهِ ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَتَّقونَ

Brother, look at the context of these verse from here:
Whomever God wills to guide, He renders his chest wide open to "Islam"( Submission). And whomever He wills to send astray, He renders his chest intolerant and straitened, like one who climbs towards the sky.* God thus places a curse upon those who refuse to believe.
فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهدِيَهُ يَشرَح صَدرَهُ لِلإِسلٰمِ وَمَن يُرِد أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجعَل صَدرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّما يَصَّعَّدُ فِى السَّماءِ كَذٰلِكَ يَجعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجسَ عَلَى الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ
This is the straight path to your Lord. We have explained the revelations for people who take heed.
وَهٰذا صِرٰطُ رَبِّكَ مُستَقيمًا قَد فَصَّلنَا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يَذَّكَّرونَ

Most of what you mentioned in your questions GOD has not mentioned in these verses. Are you telling me that GOD has forgotten to do so?
Yet clearly GOD has said this is the straight path that saves.
What you are talking about is specific to the ranks of believers. .We are not all the same. We are diverse. I am specifically talking about the minimum requirement.
GOD is Forgiver most Merciful. Muslim to GOD is a special relationship on an individual basis to start with.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 09:42:34 PM »
Peace Good logic

you said
Quote
MY ANSWER:: You are talking about "believers" in Qoran . Different subject than "Muslim to GOD".  "Muslim" existed before Qoran.  What about Christians and Jews s? What about followers of other messengers in the past  that Qoran has not told us about?

What about the Christians and the Jews? Did they not receive guidance from the Almighty God? Are they not tasked to judge by what God has revealed to them in the Injeel and the Torah (5:43-47)?


Why are you talking about followers of messengers that the Quran did not mention to you? You acknowledge the Quran did not tell us anything about them, so its irrelevant. You do not know their followers or even if they exist now.


Why have you changed your words from  "Islam to God" to "Muslim to God"  ?

The whole subject between me and you was regarding Islam not a muslim. You have claimed that Islam is one religion, however, its a state of mind and that can be found in all the religions and even with people without religion despite their laws.

As you have stated
Quote
" Islam is a state of mind and can be found in people who have no religion or in any religion."

Quote
“There is only one religion: (Islam to GOD not Islam the religion of the so called Muslims). Islam to GOD is a state of mind and can be found in all man s religions Judaism,Christianity, Traditional Islam,Hinduism...etc. It can even be found with people who have no religion.”

So the laws and rulings in God’s Scriptures have no real meaning, as since Islam is already in all these and its just a state of mind?

Now you have changed your terminology to "Muslim to God".


Is Islam to God the same as Muslim to God? Please remain consistent.

Islam is a system/religion which cannot be practiced on a individual level outright. The Quran does however stipulate and command matters and tenants of worship and basic beliefs to its believers on a personal level which it requires them to implement.

The Quran illustrates what Islam is. It is a constitution that is implemented by a society by using either the Quran, Old Testament, or New Testament.

5:3(part) This day have I perfected your religion/system(Deenakum) for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen(radeetu) for you “Islam” as your religion(Deenan). But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

24:55 Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance/succession (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion(Deen) - the one which He has chosen(irtada) for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.



Muslim is anyone who believes in God regardless of where they live, what constitution they abide by, what sectarian divide they choose, etc. God knows best who is a muslim.

Peace

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2020, 07:42:07 AM »
Peace Hamzeh.
For me this is the same thing, quote:
Why have you changed your words from  "Islam to God" to "Muslim to God"  ?

If one accepts "islam to GOD ,he/she is a "Musl;im to GOD"

 Otherwise Define Islam from Qoran  to  prove your point with  the details you mention in your posts. ( What is Islam in Qoran?)


Noah, Abraham,etc...and so on were all Muslims, does that mean they had the same religion as the so called "Muslim Umma now with all the details that you listed?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline good logic

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Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2020, 10:41:43 AM »
Peace Hamzeh.
Let me summarize what I am saying to you about "Islam" and Muslim from Qoran, then leave it at that with evidence from Qoran.

 Islam to GOD is not the "Muslim religion that some claim or we have today".
Islam  is not defined as following all the qoran and its laws.
Islam was the only DEEN accepted by GOD throughout the human history, is and will be.
Islam existed way before Qoran and Mohammed.
Islam to GOD is an invitation to all mankind to acknowledge and believe in the Creator with sincerity and honesty and accept GOD s guidance to become straight(follow the straight path). i.e an individual relationship/attitude to start the process of guidance from GOD.
Islam to GOD is accepting The one GOD as authority .

Religions are diverse and have different rules. Believers in Qoran may differ in rules than believers in bible or ...

The only DEEN approved by God is "ISLAM." Ironically, those who have received the scripture are the ones who dispute this fact, despite the knowledge they have received, due to jealousy. For such rejectors of God's revelations, God is most strict in reckoning.
إِنَّ الدّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الإِسلٰمُ وَمَا اختَلَفَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ إِلّا مِن بَعدِ ما جاءَهُمُ العِلمُ بَغيًا بَينَهُم وَمَن يَكفُر بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَريعُ الحِسابِ
If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply ASLAMTU- submitted myself to God; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. God is Seer of all people.
فَإِن حاجّوكَ فَقُل أَسلَمتُ وَجهِىَ لِلَّهِ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ وَقُل لِلَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ وَالأُمِّيّـۧنَ ءَأَسلَمتُم فَإِن أَسلَموا فَقَدِ اهتَدَوا وَإِن تَوَلَّوا فَإِنَّما عَلَيكَ البَلٰغُ وَاللَّهُ بَصيرٌ بِالعِبادِ
May be we are prolonging this unnecessarily and for my part , I want to finish with respect and friendship  towards you brother and all readers of this thread and ask the following,not to expect an answer ,but for reflection to all:

If Islam is defined as following Mohammed and the rules of his message ,which I do not find that in Qoran, then this needs to be reconciled.:

1- GOD makes it clear in Qoran that whoever accept ANY OTHER DEEN apart from ISLAm , will be with the losers.
2- Yet iinforms us as follows:
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in God and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَالَّذينَ هادوا وَالصّٰبِـٔونَ وَالنَّصٰرىٰ مَن ءامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَاليَومِ الـٔاخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صٰلِحًا فَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ

We need to identify Deen meanings from the context of Qoran to eliminate issues that faulty interpretations bring like contradictions.
For me Deen can mean many things,system,millat Sharia, laws,...tec.
GOD may have established a social Deen with Mohammed but added that he also approved the DEEN Islam like it was done by previuos messengers throughout the human history.
Brother Hamzeh, you may reply or not, I am letting you know that I said all I wanted to say on this subject.
With apologies to  Lobotomize94 for  disrupting the thread.
GOD bless you and all the readers.
Peace.