80.11

[chadiga]

Salam
i read a little bit about the compilation from the quran and i struggled over the verse 80.11


kallā
Nay!      AVR – aversion particle
حرف ردع
(80:11:2)
innahā
Indeed, it      ACC – accusative particle
PRON – 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun
حرف نصب و«ها» ضمير متصل في محل نصب اسم «ان»
(80:11:3)
tadhkiratun
(is) a reminder,      N – nominative feminine indefinite (form II) verbal noun
اسم مرفوع
(80:12:1)
faman
So whosoever      REM – prefixed resumption particle
COND – conditional noun
الفاء استئنافية
اسم شرط
(80:12:2)
shāa
wills      V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb
فعل ماض
(80:12:3)
dhakarahu
may remember it.      V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun
فعل ماض والهاء ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
(80:13:1)
fī
In      P – preposition
حرف جر
(80:13:2)
ṣuḥufin
sheets      N – genitive feminine plural indefinite noun
اسم مجرور
(80:13:3)
mukarramatin
honored,      ADJ – genitive feminine plural indefinite (form II) passive participle
صفة مجرورة
(80:14:1)
marfūʿatin
Exalted,      ADJ – genitive feminine plural indefinite passive participle
صفة مجرورة
(80:14:2)
muṭahharatin
purified,      ADJ – genitive feminine plural indefinite (form II) passive participle

(source: corpusquran.com)

we found in 80.11: inna- HA Indeed, it
and after    80.12 : dhakarahu may remember it.
in 56.73 we see the word jalnaha with the Pron. Ha (fem.)which refers to the fire.

the first pronom is feminine and the second masculine the two translated with it (as reverse to the Quran?)
After we found the term suhufi- the sheets; they are plural too and feminine
those sheets were written from  scribes Honorable and virtuous.( Kiramin bararatin)80:16

1 question: who are those scribes?? the interpretation from Joseph point to companions from the Prophet but maybe they are the angles? Because the sheets they are purified, honored and exalted- points to the kitab maknun in 56.78.
and in 56.79  La yamassuhu illa almutahharoona which none but the pure [of heart] can touch:
(but in Sura al A'la we found the suhufi from Ibrahim wa Musa-??)

the Quran is mentioned in 56.77  this Qur'an is a Noble Monograph. Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
the Quran inna-hu (masculine) is IN the kitabun maknun 56.78 which can only touches the pure ones.= the angles?

2.question: the sheets are from the kitabun maknun by Allah or on earth?
3. question:the innaha in 80.11 revers to what?

Conclusion;
- Quran in not the same as al kitab or al kitab maknun
-the Suhufi are the written revelations from God- the Quran is the purified form from the old sheets which were written from noble scribes?

I hope the post is not to much confusing.. always hard to write my thoughts in English

peace

[HOPE]

Salaam sister Chadiga,

This reminder is in a scripture well preserved lawh al mahfoodh. 

Scribers can either be the prophet’s transcribers or the angels who take the message from the lawh al mahfoodh and unveil it to the prophet or both.

Verse 16 gives more support to the angels- noble and dutiful, kiraamin bararah.  My notes say the angels are referred as bararah and humans as abraar because there are a lot more good angels than good people.  The most noble and righteous angels are the Quran scribes.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Chadiga,

May peace be with you.

With respect to your comment:

the interpretation from Joseph point to companions from the Prophet but maybe they are the angles? Because the sheets they are purified, honored and exalted- points to the kitab maknun in 56.78.

Please see my evidence for the support of my interpretation which is expressed in a related article. [1]

1 (a) Firstly, what is verse 80:13 referring to?

It is primarily referring to an earthly admonishment that the Prophet of God received. Please see preceding verses 80:1-12. Now where are these admonishments likely to be transcribed? In a heavenly tablet before the Prophet even made the oversight mentioned in 80:1 based on his 'choices' or was it transcribed later after the event had occurred by noble scribes into a tangible scripture as part of revelation?

I strongly feel that logic demands the latter, i.e. that scribes noted this ‘admonishment’ after the event occurred and it was revealed to the Prophet as part of Quranic inspiration.

2 (i)   80:13 'fi suhufin mukarrama' (Literally: In honoured leaves) The Arabic 'suhuf' has been referred to as a reference to the Quran in another verse (98:2). It is also used as tangible earthly scriptures such as in verses 20:133, 53:36, 74:52 and 87:18-19. Apart from the scrolls of our deeds (80:13), the usage of 'suhuf' (scrolls) to signify earthly tangible scripture is pretty conclusive in my opinion.  Furthermore, the verb 'karrama' (to honour, or one who is honoured) has been used in an earthly sense (17:62; 17:72).

(ii) 80:14 ‘marfu'atin mutahhara’ kept pure / holy / exalted / purified - This can apply to the Quran as well as a Heavenly Tablet. Using 80:14 on its own is inconclusive.

(iii) 80:15 'bi'aydi safara' (Literally: 'written by the hands / in the hands' (of) scribes. This is a very explicit reference. Unless anyone can provide clear, unequivocal evidence from the Quran (not philosophical, metaphorical interpretations) that angels are 'scribes' or have 'physical hands' that need to transcribe in this manner, then these are earthly human hands being referred to here. If God can mention that angels have wings (35:1), the Quran could have clearly mentioned that angels also have hands and are described as 'scribes' (safarah). Angels have only been mentioned as ‘katibin’ (82:11) (those that record ones deeds) not 'scribes' (safarah). Such a description is generally noted for humans.

(iv) 80:16 ‘kiramin barara’ (Literally: Noble and and virtuous/pious)  - Although the word 'karim' has been used for both angels (12:31) and humans (44:17), the verb 'barra' (to be pious, just, deal kindly) has only been used to denote humans in the Quran [2:224, 60:8]. Please also see the usage of the noun 'barr' in verses 3:193,98, 19:14,32, 52:28, 82:13,83:18 and 83:22.

3 (i) Please also refer to the instruction to believers to note / remember the admonishment in verse 80:12 which arguably by implication means to take heed from it. Are believers really expected to consult and ponder over heavenly written tablets or an earthly scripture?

Therefore, even if 2(ii) is inconclusive, 1(a), 2(i), 2(iii), 2(iv) and 3(a) are indicative of humans and an earthly transcription.


With respect to your comment:

and in 56.79  La yamassuhu illa almutahharoona which none but the pure [of heart] can touch:

Please see related article [2] below.

I have presented the evidence before you as to why I lean to the interpretation that I do. I trust this helps in some small way, God willing.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph. 


REFERENCES:

[1] THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
[2] DO I NEED TO PERFORM ABLUTION (WUDU) BEFORE I CAN TOUCH THE QURAN?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wudu%20before%20touching%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

[HOPE]

Peace brother Joseph,

baar بَارَ [with alif in the middle] – someone who is good, but not as good as barr بَرَرَ.
The plural of baar بَارَ = abraar ابَرَارَ
More poweful plural of baar = bararahبَرَرَةٍ.
bararah بَرَرَةٍ – jam’u kathrah. (alot)
Abraar ابَرَارَ – jam’u qilah. (a few).

Is this a misleading information?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Hope,

May peace be with you.

If the purpose of what you have shared as in the link below, is to insinuate that angels are grouped as 'bararah' and humans as 'abrar', then this in my humble opinion is indeed misleading.

http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/tafsir/abasa


The best way to interpret a Quranic word is using the Quran itself and if need be, to make use of proper lexicons, grammatical materials or concordances which present the information without intending to interpret a particular verse.

The Arabic word used in verse 80:16 is 'barra' not 'baar'. The plural of 'barra' is 'bararah'.  Please see verses 2:224 and 60:8 to see how the verb 'barra' is used and you will see that they are used for humans.

With respect, what you have presented seems to be a contrived explanation at best to 'lead' to a particular interpretation.

'abrar' is simply a plural of the noun 'barr'.

All you need to do is consult verses 2:224 and 60:8 for yourself and see how the verb 'barra' which is from the same root verb, used as an adjective in verse 80:16 is utilised.

I hope that helps, God willing,
Joseph.

[HOPE]

Thank you sir.

[chadiga]

Salam brother Josepf

you know, that i didn't want to be disrespectful- don't understand my post in this way

1 (a) Firstly, what is verse 80:13 referring to?

It is primarily referring to an earthly admonishment that the Prophet of God received. Please see preceding verses 80:1-12. Now where are these admonishments likely to be transcribed? In a heavenly tablet before the Prophet even made the oversight mentioned in 80:1 based on his 'choices' or was it transcribed later after the event had occurred by noble scribes into a tangible scripture as part of revelation?

I strongly feel that logic demands the latter, i.e. that scribes noted this ‘admonishment’ after the event occurred and it was revealed to the Prophet as part of Quranic inspiration.

2 (i)   80:13 'fi suhufin mukarrama' (Literally: In honoured leaves) The Arabic 'suhuf' has been referred to as a reference to the Quran in another verse (98:2). It is also used as tangible earthly scriptures such as in verses 20:133, 53:36, 74:52 and 87:18-19. Apart from the scrolls of our deeds (80:13), the usage of 'suhuf' (scrolls) to signify earthly tangible scripture is pretty conclusive in my opinion.  Furthermore, the verb 'karrama' (to honour, or one who is honoured) has been used in an earthly sense (17:62; 17:72).

(ii) 80:14 ‘marfu'atin mutahhara’ kept pure / holy / exalted / purified - This can apply to the Quran as well as a Heavenly Tablet. Using 80:14 on its own is inconclusive.

thank you for your exact replies with Quranic reverences. 17.72 should be 17.70 as i saw when i read the Ayas. Your mentioned points are strong and i accept your conclusion.

(iii) 80:15 'bi'aydi safara' (Literally: 'written by the hands / in the hands' (of) scribes. This is a very explicit reference. Unless anyone can provide clear, unequivocal evidence from the Quran (not philosophical, metaphorical interpretations) that angels are 'scribes' or have 'physical hands' that need to transcribe in this manner, then these are earthly human hands being referred to here. If God can mention that angels have wings (35:1), the Quran could have clearly mentioned that angels also have hands and are described as 'scribes' (safarah). Angels have only been mentioned as ‘katibin’ (82:11) (those that record ones deeds) not 'scribes' (safarah). Such a description is generally noted for humans.

i checked the word safar- the Root and its meanings and i read in the Lanes lexicon-

striking for me is that the word safar always expresses a generic movement, from one place to another. Be it the journey or the woman who takes away her veil or the sun moves over the sky until it turns yellow (asfar).
Lane write also that Messengers can be meant by that word  that that will bring peace, even angels. Sure there was a short in one sentence the translation Scribes- but I can hardly accept this- it is going out the logic.(for me )

the word Hand is often used in the Quran as an Allegoric for power or also to describe anything what is co-existent. I think here for the 'between his hand'  or 2.66 fa ja'lnaha nakalan bayna yadaiha wa ma chalfaha... to describe a time or in 2.79 to describe an act.
We see the word together with the power of Allah in the aya al kursi. Allah sure don't has hands.

So it's quite possible, that the term aydi safara means - in the hand of messengers/traveler/ voyagers
this sure can include humans but also could be angels who voyages between Allah and the humans and brings the messages from Allah to the humans.(as sister hope said -thank you

i see two possibilities:
1. the description in Sura Abasa means the al kitab (by Allah) which is written and always pure in the 'hand' power from noble messengers/voyagers , i.e. the angels who transfer the content or parts from this scriptures on earth
2. the description in Sura Abasa means the quranic sheets which are written by noble scribes (as messenger(s) or sahabis?
but the second explanation lead to the conclusion, that the 'noble companions' from Prophet Muhammad have written the revelation from the prophet - because the safara is plural??
So i tend to the first possibility- or i overlook again somethin important or i conclude false.
peace and thank you