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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Shariah
« on: November 12, 2011, 04:02:27 PM »
SHARIAH has becme a hot topic in USA & other western countries.I want to know what kind of Shriah Muslims want to have in west ? Shariah has got two faces one is as per Quran & the other is as per Hadith.Most of the muslims want Hadithi sharaih as is in vogue in most of Muslim countries. this being apart I want to konw why muslims want this ? As per Quran we have to accept the countries laws whereever we live unless it goes against our beliefs. Will J Islam or other friends through light on this subject Thanks
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 11:50:32 PM »
Salamun Alaikum Sardar Miyan,

Welcome to the forum.

I would not like to perceive of a Khilafa state based on a traditional understanding of 'Islamic shariah' based on Islamic secondary sources as many Muslims understand today. The Quran on the other hand has sadly (and to their peril) been left shackled in many areas. And of course, whose shariah? Which sect? whose madhab?. I could go on as I'm sure you could too.

I think what is needed first is to get the true message of the Quran back into the hearts of people, on a platform where it starts making a difference to the masses and where its message is properly understood. This would no doubt require a multifaceted Herculean effort, but all great changes start from somewhere, with a desire and with small steps in the right direction.

I sometimes look at Western states, their welfare system, facilities for the weak, the blind, housing for the poor, the needy, roads, networks, emergency systems, health systems, justice systems, human rights, employment laws and wonder whether they have adopted many of the principles of the Quran. Yet, Muslim countries that claim to uphold the teachings of Islam and have the scripture with them, cannot provide basic necessities for their people.

Indeed, living as a citizen under a particular state must be respected (as long as it doesn't contravene basic religious edicts). We must respect the law of the land. We note an example of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) who upheld the king's law (system / deen) and did not break it even when presented with a complex situation which required manifestation of truth.

012:076
" Then he (Joseph) began the search with their bags before his brother's bag, then he produced it from his brother's bag. Thus did We contrive for Joseph. He could not have taken his brother according to the king's law (Arabic: Deen) unless God willed"

Quite ironically, I have found Western states fulfilling basic human rights, religious freedom, religious tolerance, anti discrimination and edicts congruent with Islam as opposed to many Muslim countries. Sadly, the Quran and its true message has been left abandoned (Mahjur).

025:030               
"And the messenger will say: O my Lord! Indeed! my own people / community (Arabic: Qawm)  took this Quran as a forsaken thing / ignored it / abandoned it (Arabic: Mahjura)"

Your brother,
Joseph.

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2011, 03:29:27 AM »
Salam to all,
I completely concur with brother Joseph.  A good number of the Western values are completely in consonance with the Qur'an, though not everything is perfect.  However, I must say that I have been living in the US for the last 26 years and I have seen so much of the Western value system being consistent with the Qur'an that I wondered how someone was able to put it all together and how everyone agreed to follow it. One thing that stands out tall in their values is respect for freedom of expression.  They believe in discussing and debating all issues that are relevant to their societies without prejudice, distaste, hate, or rancor for those presenting opposing points of view.  This is something that has always been woefully lacking in the so-called 'Islamic lands' where people have a strong tendency to suppress divergent views often time with violence.  That has to change if Muslims have to regain the glory they once had.  If we can't learn from the Qur'an, we can at least learn from the West.
Irfan

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2011, 05:24:19 PM »

Futher to Shari'a:

As far as the Islamic rituals (salat, zakah, fasting, hajj etc) are concerned, I don't think anyone has any problem with the orthodox Shari'ah.  But as we go beyond that, enforcing the detailed Shari'ah legislation (fiqh) on a population of Muslims--even in an Islamic country, let alone in the West'”we are bound to have serious problems. Based on my study of the Qur'an and Hadith, I think the Shari'ah is not primarily based on the Qur'an.  Far from that, I think the Shari'a, as we know it from the times of the ancient 'imams', is an illogical, misogynistic, and unjust system.  I, as a student of the Qur'an and as a practicing Muslim, will oppose anyone who will impose it on me or my family. I would resist any system in a Muslim society that is NOT primarily based on the Book of Allah. It is precisely because of this Shari'ah, coupled with the routine evil conduct of many of our brothers in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran, that a recent 2010 Pew poll finds 70% Americans disfavoring Islam.  When you see many unQur'anic laws in the Shari'ah that entail stoning to death for the adulterers, death sentence for apostasy, illogical inheritance laws, disallowed adoption, and ludicrous triple divorce to ruin people marriages.  And  then, on top of that, the Shari'ah-based draconian blasphemy laws which were unjustifiably incorporated into the Pakistani constitution in 1974 by ZAB regime against Ahmadi community, collected further scar tissue of PC 295a-c in 1985.  These Qur'anically unjustifiable blasphemy laws, once instituted, cannot possibly be undone any time unless a broad-based consensus is developed against them' a Herculean job indeed.  Instead of taking measure to repeal these draconian laws, they are being stubbornly defended and ferociously practiced by the Federal Shari'ah court of Pakistan, thanks to the high octane power gas being pumped through Friday afternoon mosque microphones on a regular basis in Pakistan and Indonesia.
Considering all these grim facts about this inexorable outdated and bizarre system, I don't think anyone with a clear conscience will support initiatives to enforce Shari'ah anywhere in the world.

We, as Muslims, need to take a long and hard look at our own backyard to make sure it does not contain bad weeds sown by our ancient 'imams'.  When we have our own house in order, we will find that the thing we call 'Islamophobia' will magically disappear from the dictionary.  The abhorred  'Islamophobia' term exists because the Islamic model we have shown to the world does not make sense to people;  it has many things in it that have little to do with the 'Word of God' and much to do with the word of man.

I would be more than willing to talk about the unQur'anic Shari'ah in more detail in case this forum warrants.

In sum, I, for one, would fiercely oppose any irrational piece of legislation based on the traditional Shari'a carved out for Muslim communities in the West.  Haven't we learned the consequences of having this man-made Shari'ah system in Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Talibani times of Afghanistan, Swat and Wazirastan, Sudan, Iran, and many parts of Iraq? Have we become so insensitively stubborn that we have to defend a legal system that offers little more than the ancient tribal laws that neither have any practical relevance in a typical 21st century Muslim society, nor have any Qur'anic basis?

I agree that the West does need to be educated about Islam.  But, I believe, more than the West, we the Muslims also need to educate ourselves about the real Islam---the Islam that Allah, the Most High, forever preserved for us and the one that is good for all times and circumstances.

Please take this write-up for my two cents' worth.  I hope what I have said above will not be ignored.  I believe I have to do my duty letting the world to know that what is commonly passed on as 'God's Law' in the name of the 'Shari'ah' has actually very little to do with God and much to do with man.

Ma'asslama,

Irfan

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2011, 06:23:00 PM »
Jazakallah Bro.Joseph Islam & Irfan for enlightenment.Our Masjids Imam was talking about this on Juma,though he did not tell about what sort of Shariah he needs in US but I am sure he will talk about Hadithi Shariah which we do not want in US. By this attitude we are making the Westeners our enemy. Be content with the freedom of practiciting our religion.Abide by their laws.
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Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 08:07:34 PM »
Salaam all,

I read this thread with great interest. Brother Sardar has raised an important issue. This issue needs to be addressed as due to this hadith based Shariah, people are suffering unnecessarily, sadly, even as I write this.

Just recently I read about the Taliban stoning to death two women:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15688354

Irfan, I too hope that what you have said will not be ignored. I agree totally with your sentiments.

Thanks to everyone.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 11:05:57 PM »
Thanks for sharing.While US has laws mostly in accordance Islamic laws of human rights i do not know what sort of Shariah our Imam wants? He also told in Khutba that nearly half of US states have  blocked  the Shariah Law, means nothing of this sort is acceptable. I dont know about other western countries.I feel that we are antanogisting the western countries & creating mistrust.Can sombody explain as to what the Muslims want by asking US to implement Shariah?What will Shariah do?
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 10:24:15 PM »
Assalam Can Br.JAI clarify me as to what US muslims want by implementing Shariah
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 05:24:09 PM »
Br. Joseph Islam may please post reply to my post as to why & how USA is reacting to Muslims demand for Shariah & how other western countries are reacting?Thanks
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shariah
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 01:41:48 AM »
Dear brother Sardar,

Salamun Alaikum.

I think it would be inappropriate for me to speak on behalf of US Muslims or any Muslims generally on this matter. It would be equally difficult to generalise what different Muslims may want out of implementing a Shariah, or their particular understanding of Shariah. In my earlier post, I did posit that:

"I would not like to perceive of a Khilafa state based on a traditional understanding of 'Islamic shariah' based on Islamic secondary sources as many Muslims understand today. The Quran on the other hand has sadly (and to their peril) been left shackled in many areas. And of course, whose shariah? Which sect? whose madhab?"

I think Western countries are not oblivious to the detrimental effects of the 'Shariah' and how it has been implemented in Muslim countries around the world. Not only has it hindered the intellectual and prosperous growth of these societies and their citizens, but often fails to provide basic necessities for them.

However, this is what transpires when 'Shariah' is not based on Quranic values, but rather on the opinions of 8th and 9th century (CE) jurists and how they applied their knowledge of the Quran to their circumstances.

I am not aware of any Western country that would be prepared to embrace a Shariah which can be barbaric, unjust and in complete contradiction with the Quran itself. These are not examples that would entice others to embrace.

Joseph.


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell