Difference between messengers and prophets?

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alikum

Dear Joseph

I hope that im not being repetitive of other questions and I read many of other related topics and I am still not convinced of a clear answer. However I came to a couple interesting thoughts while reading so many peoples opinions but before I give my thoughts to just anyone, I need someone to look at this with a good understanding of the quran and can relate it to every ayah so im not in any contradictions with any. From about 2 month ago i started to read many things from this website and i thought I would ask if I can give my opinion and if it would hold true from the quran about the messengers and prophets.

rasul= messenger

nabi= prophet

PROPHETS

1. We know first that in the quran that prophet Muhammad is the seal of the prophets.

2. We know from the quran prophets can possibly make mistakes

3. We know some times in the quran Allah calls Muhammad(pbuh) a prophet and sometimes a messenger

4. We also know from the quran that chosen people of  Allah(swt) can be both messengers and prophets at the same time

5. and also sometimes chosen people from Allah(swt) are only called prophets or just messengers and not both at the same time

6. I think there is also more than one prophet at the same time that came to a ummah or people. and also 2 or more messengers at one time.

sorry for not quoting any of the statements i made above from the quran. Im hoping someone who memorized the quran can see what I'm trying to point out and maybe it could be an interesting conclusion if its in conjunction with the quran.

now the question is is Muhammad(pbuh) also the final messenger?

to me there has to be a difference between a messenger of Allah(swt) and a prophet of Allah(swt)

I would like to share what I think my opinion is as to what a messenger of Allah(swt) is and its just an opinion but a more learnt person of the quran can put this opinion more to use and can answer a lot, if it holds to be true but Allah knows best.

messenger of Allah(swt):

1. i think that when Allah(swt) mentions rasul(messengers) and only when its relating to his rasul, when its his messengers,they never did a mistake. the only times i referenced a mistake happening from chosen people from Allah(swt) is when he calls them prophets(nabi)

2. Also the angel Gabriel is also a rasul

3. Also just to keep in mind when Allah(swt) mentions his messengers its like there infallible and cannot make a mistake carrying out the revelations. and what i noticed is that maybe prophets can make a personal mistakes in there life but they did the best they could to carry out or to give a example of the revelation. but if a person chosen by Allah(swt) is both a messenger(rasul) and a Prophet(nabi). at times he is infallible when Allah(swt) is calling him by  " oh messenger" and sometimes he makes mistakes when he is called by "oh prophet".

for example

Quran tells us

obey Allah and the messenger and those in authority... not the prophet but Muhammad(pbuh) was a messenger and a prophet.
what im trying to say is maybe when a person choosen by Allah(swt) is called by a messenger he is almost like a angel in a way where he can not make a mistake by any means.

when i keep all this in mind ayat like 3:81 makes more of an understanding but just to clarify i can be very wrong because I dont know all the ayat off by heart and maybe I'm missing something.


003.081

Sahih International
And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [ Allah ] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

Muhsin Khan
And (remember) when Allah took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allah, etc.), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him." Allah said: "Do you agree (to it) and will you take up My Covenant (which I conclude with you)?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses (for this)."

so from this ayah the prophets are probably taking or memorizing and acting out the scriptures of their time a scripture already preached by a previous messenger, but when a new messenger comes confirming what is with them they must be with him and believe what he says. just a thought.

also the way i look at it is lets see what a messenger really does and who he is in general. like maybe a general definition:

I would say for example if you told me to carry out a message or speak a message out to some people, I would be your messenger. if I was to say something else you didn't tell me or in a different way I wouldn't be carrying out your message, so to do that I would have to say exactly what you said.

And for Allah's message to be complete a person choosen by Allah(swt) has to be infallible at those moments. And so has to be Angel Gabriel. Noway along the line the message being passed on can there be personal faults or mistakes.

now when taking other concepts from the quran like:

every nation has a messenger and every messenger will be a witness for its people, maybe in the past every nation did have its messengers some of them Allah(swt) has mentioned and some he hasn't. and Muhammad(pbuh) was a messenger to the whole world.

Also only Allah(swt) guides and only he can guide and open the way. so how can one be on the list of who he guides? maybe by being honest and just and looking and searching for the truth. And just maybe because there is not going to be anymore messengers or prophets of Allah(swt) the only guidance is Allah(swt) and the book. and a person must take the best therein from where ever he maybe. and we have to remember there is not a leaf that falls but that he knows of it. surah 6 aya 59

And with Him are the keys of the Ghaib (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in (or on) the earth and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but he knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record.

for humans there is not even that many as compared to leafs he knows who wants the truth or not. I dont see any importance of any messengers or mahdis coming to save a people or teach a people when they themselves dont want. the religion of Allah(swt) has been perfected and finalized for the future. and also as time was going by it was always perfect for the people of that time.

Now i also ask is a messenger always automatically a prophet?

After what my opinion was above I would have to say yes. because a person who is a messenger of Allah(swt) is at times a normal human being who is considered his prophet who lives his life and tries to carry out the message in his personal life and as a example. But when he reveals something that the Angel told him or Allah(swt)( example moses) then its a revelation and cannot be altered or changed and we notice that by how Allah says in surah al haqqah69 aya 44 to 48 that he would of cut him from the aorta.

so maybe a messenger is always a prophet and if prophethood is finalized then so is messengers of Allah(swt)


Also when obeying Allah and the messenger

how can someone really obey Allah(swt) if really you dont take the revelation from the messenger first. because its really impossible. because it like from Allah to the Angels to the MESSENGERS to the books to the people
so really if we cant obey the messengers first then we wouldn't have the revelation. without the messengers really the revelation wouldn't be there. Unless Allah wanted it to come in a different way but thats not the case from the Quran.

also from a forum on your website called "messengers will continue to come" you stated this

023:051
"O Messengers! (Arabic: rusulu - plural). Eat of the good things and do right. Indeed, I am aware of what ye do"
 
Here it is clear that those who were around Prophet Muhammad were also being called 'messengers'. If we assume for a second that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali are real personalities (I have no reason to deny it - but we are outside scripture for now) and were active in spreading the message, then they would have been possibly included into this address.

I read a few ayahs before and after and I can be wrong but it doesn't seem to be saying that to Muhammad only and his companions. the ayah before that talks about Jesus(pbuh) and his mother.

maybe it really is refering to all of Allah's messengers

Also this verse you stated

007:035
"O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from among you, rehearsing My verses (Arabic: ayati) to you, those who are righteous and mend (their lives), on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve"

this can still mean all the messengers before Muhammad(pbuh). doesn't really have to mean there needs to be messengers after him, they were still the children of Adam coming from different ummah's and tribes and nations.

**this aya could also be referring to messengers from amongst you which is us, its not stating that these messengers are Allah's(swt) messengers. there just messengers who are amongst us who are rehearsing his verses. in this case these messengers would have to be reading the ayat or rehearsing them correctly but not a revelation sent to them or they can't claim to be a messenger of Allah(swt) because its "rusulun MINKUM"


also is there a different in arabic when saying rusulun or rasulun? Im just comparing the word messenger from 07:35 and 03:81
maybe it makes a different as who the speaker is and who its pointing out to be?


also sometimes the qurans mentions a messenger and a prophet at the same time but from the above opinion i see it still doesnt contradict my opinion. However brother I read many many interesting articles on your website and i thought I would like to share this with you hoping you can add something or correct me in any way.

also i apolagize if this is something you already responded to in the past and its making a repetition of an answer. i looked many places on the internet and everyone seems to have opinions not based on the quran alone and any facts.

I also read opinions on some other sects of islam and how many people are claiming to be messengers of Allah(swt) because they are saying that its not mentioned and it seems only fair that Allah(swt) guides everyone through the end of times with a messenger. But even though i dont really see a logic to that if the complete truth is already here. and the messengers that are being claimed are saying there is new revelations that have new laws and they state that the quran was a past law and guide. And now there is new book to be followed which to me if it was from the All mighty it would not contradict with a previous scripture and hold the same basis. when looking at the Torah and The Gospel and trying to decipher the truth out of them, they do go in the same path and conjunction with the Quran especially how they foretells the prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

Also sorry I do have a hard time writing and speaking what my thoughts really are and using the right and appropriate words. I know my literature is not very good. I hope you get a understanding of what im trying to say and Inshallah I will hear back from you shortly

Everything I have mentioned is just a thought and opinion and I am not to debate who's right and who's wrong. I really appreciate and find it nice to have good honest justified opinions. And inshallah when facts are seen they can be taken as facts. And it would be nice to hear from you thank you.




Hamzeh

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Hamzeh,

Welcome to the forum!

Joseph is currently unavailable at the moment.

However there are a couple of articles which seem very appropriate for your post. So I thought I would share. Please take a look them at your convenience.

End of Prophethood - Continuation of Messengers? - http://quransmessage.com/articles/end%20of%20prophethood%20FM3.htm

and

Is Verse 3:81 a Reference to any Particular Messenger? - http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm

Also you spoke about verse 7:35. Joseph has argued that the phrase 'O Children of Adam' (Ya Bani Adama) has only be used in the Quran for guidance at all times and not up to a certain point in time.

He says:

the phrase 'O Children of Adam' (Arabic: Ya Bani Adama) has only been used in the Quran to denote generic guidance to all mankind. This guidance not only applied to previous generations, but also to the contemporaries of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and more importantly, to all the subsequent generations that would follow after him.

He gives examples of verses - 7.26-7.27- 7.31 etc.

[Hamzeh]

Salam truth seeker

Thank you for the quick response.

I have read those articles you mentioned
And also aware of the part where Allah mentions the children of adam and that its referring to all people at all times.

I hope Joseph could read what I wrote and let me know what he thinks

Thank you so much look forward to reading more

Salam

Hamzeh

[Hamzeh]

Salam

To when ever brother Joseph replies

I just wanted to correct something I said earlier about Gabriel.

As I just read another article on your website about Gabriel. whether he is an angel or not?

I just wanted to point out that from Surah 81 ayah 19 is where i am thinking he can be claimed as a messenger of ALLAH(swt). But Im not fimiliar with arabic grammer or literature. Im reading the transliteration and pointing it out from there. So i could be making a mistake.

And from your article about Gabriel being an angel or not, I have not yet verified it completely for myself. But to me if thats the case it can change a lot of other ideas I also had. Thanks so much for uncovering many ideas. Its amazing how much we can learn from one another. Allah Bless us all inshallah with true knowledge.

Thank you

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Hamzeh,

As Truth Seeker has mentioned, brother Joseph remains currently unavailable.

Please can we suggest that you continue to read his articles to understand his perspectives as you already seem to be doing. His articles are quite detailed so his opinions on a particular matter will be very openly shared.

Given brother Joseph's current commitments / schedule we cannot confirm when he will be able to respond.

You may also want to open up your questions to discuss with others if that also suits.

Thank you for your understanding

[Hamzeh]

Thanks QM Moderators team for your info and advice

I will wait inshallah for Joseph to look at this. When ever I guess he has time. No rush just thought it could be an interesting thought.

 I am currently reading many of his articles which I find very impressive. And I can almost say i understand his perspective on this kind of topic which I respect a lot and find very knowledgeable and helpful and honest.Thats why I would like to see his point of view on my opinion.  I also have read lots.

 Thanks for posting for the public. I appreciate it very much

Salam

Hamzeh

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Hamzeh,

As-salam alaykum

As you are aware, I have already shared my humble perspectives on the terms 'nabi' and 'rasul' in comprehensive articles which I understand you have cited. With respect, any further input from me will only be a tedious repetition and not the most conducive use of both our times respectively.

If you deem appropriate, please may I kindly suggest that you highlight for me any potential areas where you may disagree with the article and the evidence and argumentation cited therein with your own evidence.

This would facilitate a better discussion, one certainly given my current time restrains I may be willing to commit to.

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.

[Hamzeh]

Wa alikum wa salam Joseph

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.

I don't really disagree with your perspective.  I was just asking for a little help on an opinion I had by searching through the quran.  Which I stated initially. I feel by reading lots of your articles that your much more knowledgeable than I am and have much more background Info regarding the quran.  I know you stated that messengers can always remain in your article. But I just wanted to know about what I asked first.  And if it would contradict any other points or verses in the quran. Inshallah I will write to you a better letter in the next few days and you may answer when you like and if you like with all respect taken.

Thank you for sharing your views on many topics which I have benefited from alhamdulila.

Thank you very much salam brother

[Joseph Islam]

Inshallah I will write to you a better letter in the next few days and you may answer when you like and if you like with all respect taken.

Thank you for sharing your views on many topics which I have benefited from alhamdulila.

Thank you very much salam brother

No problem dear brother. I look forward to the post and God willing, I will respond in due course.

As-salam alaykum 

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alikum brother Joseph

Just to end the discussion incase anyone in the future reads this. I would like to say that I went over your articles again regarding these matters and questioned them with any thoughts that came to mind. With the best of my knowledge I am one to be convinced with your perspective. As I said I would write back to you, I am not going to that since I found your perspective very insightful and beneficial and convincing. Jazak Allah Khair dear brother

Peace be with you

Salam