- The only main counter argument is an argument from silence and reading of verses out of context. With respect, this is neither a cogent argument nor approach.
Regards,
Joseph
Dear Brother Joseph:
From your above quoted post it has seemed to me you that have somewhat inclined to engage with me on the topic based on logic and arguments, rather than brushing me aside as a personal attacker. So, I have decided to respond with
one last post on the topic from my side as well. Since I raised the topic - I felt a proper closure from my side is also warranted. The readers of the forum knows your conclusions - so they should also note what my conclusions are and they for themselves evaluate and judge what makes more sense. Allah will guide whomever He wills to the straight route.
[Please note through-out this post I will use my personal translation of the verses of Qur'an. But please do cross check with other translations or even best - the original Arabic text. I also welcome any criticism of my translation.]
Firstly, let me clearly state in a nut-shell that I have not been convinced with the logic of BJ (and others supporting his view) - mainly because it seems to me that, with respect, BJ is somehow over-emphasizing an arguable
deduction from one ayat (5:1) - to overrule
clear guideline from at least 3 ayats at 3 different locations in the holy book [2:173-176; 6:145 and 16:115-116]. This is strictly a critique of the argument of BJ - not him as a person. If my tone and enthusiasm have seemed inappropriate before, I apologize for that - but unfortunately my
core contention remains unchanged.
Secondly , let me very briefly reply the 2 most frequently asked questions to me:
1) Why does Allah categorically mention "Grazing Livestock" in 5:1?
5:1 O! Those who have believed – fulfill (the obligations) by your contracts. The animals of the (grazing) livestock, except what is recited on you, are legitimized for you - without legitimizing the hunting while you are under prohibition. Indeed Allah judges however He intends.
I have actually discussed this in my very first post. Per my understanding what this ayat is saying ... even something
as commonly understood as halal as Grazing Livestock will no longer remain halal if you engage in prohibited hunting. The clear example of grazing livestock is brought here to illustrate that even in "the most explicit permissions" there are implicit underlying conditions which need to be observed... in following the scripture, as well as in fulfilling contracts.
The "Grazing Livestock" has come in this ayat
as an example only.... there are several categories of obviously halal animals/creatures - like poultry and fish - outside grazing livestock. So, from a strictly academic and linguistic point of view it is not a valid argument that this ayat restricts halal animals to grazing livestock.
The context of the ayat is in the ayat itself. Before accusing others of using ayats outside the context, let's make sure we do not fall in the trap ourselves.
2) Can you give one single ayat that says all other foods other that the stated restrictions are halal?In sha Allah, I can - but, what is the point? If you have a pre-conceived prejudice that everything must be read in the context of what you believe - then even if I bring all the ayats of Qur'an you will not be convinced. Let me try anyway.
5:93 No offence on those who believe and act appropriately for what they eat whenever that they are conscious and they believe and they act appropriately, (and) later they are conscious and they believe, (and) later they are conscious and they be nice; and Allah loves the ones being nice.
I believe that this ayat reflects exactly the same sentiment that we find in Gospel (in the form we have today):
Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he [Jesus] asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?
Mark 7:19 (NIV) "For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."
The key takeaway is - the food habits of man does not make him pious or impious; righteous or wrongdoer. It is what he believes in the soul and what is reflected in his action that make him so.
The messengers and religious preachers throughout ages have emphasized moral and behavioral teaching. In addition as a matter of necessity they taught certain food manners consistent with their socio-cultural norms and practiced some themselves - but soon after their departure their followers have taken the food manners as the centerpiece of the religion and de-emphasized the moral teaching. And to justify their superiority they kept on inventing restrictions and attributing them to Allah - to create division and to spread hostility based on food prejudices towards alien cultures. Unfortunately, the same trend is seen among the followers of Qur'an as well.
My third business of the day is to refute a misconception. Somehow it has been floating around that I am saying eating lions, and dogs and rats, and wood and paper are acceptable. Absolutely NO. I have not said these, nor did I want to mean this. If it has seemed that I am saying these then that must be a limitation of my communication ability. Dogs and cats are men's household pets throughout the world. The people who eat dogs and cats probably do so only because they are disconnected from global food ettiquate of men. I have seen Koreans who once ate dogs, but now no longer does so because they have now come to the understanding that dogs are not edible.
Lions and tigers are wild animals. I am strictly against any kind of killing of wild animals by modern men except in situation where they somehow threat humans. The days of hunter-gatherer societies are gone. With all the intelligence and material achievements that Allah has given men it is time we focus on conservation of the bio-diversity. That is our appropriate course of action as Allah's representative on earth. Since it is not a feasible idea to raise tigers and lions as food in firms - they are not men's food items.
Horses and donkeys, yes I believe they are meant to be carriers NOT FOOD. And cockroaches, rats are PESTS - neither wholesome nor delicious. And wood and paper, come on... can we even imagine these as edible?
Allah has again and again and again encouraged us to eat lawful and wholesome/delicios (tayyibat) food - not only to believers, but to mankind in general. We must use our brain and eyes to decide what is wholesome / delicious food. On this point WE ALL SEEM TO AGREE.
Our debate is whether Lions and dogs must also go through the same filter of common sense, or is there a prohibition against them in Qur'an. I believe the former is the case - these items are simply not food because our socio-cultural context don't accept them as delicious (Taiyyibat). Such items may be considered as allowable only in societies and cultures where such practices are still acceptable. But I wish soon they will catch up with the rest of us.
Now, as the fourth and last item of my final post on this topic, I would like to present my understanding of food restictions based on Qur'an.
1. For mankind, in general, Allah's command is to eat whatever they can acquire lawfully and find delicious (based on their own tase, judgement and morality). This command has clearly come in Surah bakarah.
2:168 O! Mankind - Eat from whatever in the earth is lawful, delicious and don’t follow the footsteps of the devil. Indeed he is an obvious enemy to you.
2:169 He only commands you to wickedness and immorality and that you say upon Allah what you don’t know.
2. Soon afterwards, for believers Allah has mandated 4
additional restrictions - to establish their separate identity as believers. These 4 restictions are - (i) the dead, (ii) the blood (poured out), (iii) the flesh of swine, and (iv)any food dedicated to other than Allah. A true believer - as an attestation to his faith in Qur'an - must not violate these restrictions
nor should they add any restrictions to these to attribute on Allah.
2:172 O! Those who have believed - eat from the delicious things that We provided you and appreciate Allah if He is the One you are slave to.
2:173 He has only prohibited for you the dead, the blood and the flesh of swine, and what has been initiated with it - for other than Allah. Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring - then no sin on him. Indeed Allah is Forgiving, Kind.
2:174 Indeed, those who conceal what Allah has sent down of the book and exchange it for a small price, they are the ones who don’t eat in their inside but fire and neither will Allah speak to them on the day of resurrection nor will He purify them, and for them - a painful suffering.
2:175 They are the ones - who exchange deviation from guidance and suffering for forgiveness – then what is their endurance on the fire?
2:176 That is because Allah has sent down the book with the truth. And indeed those who differed with the book are surely in wide schism.
The later ayats above (2:174-176) emphasizes the importance of taking Allah's instructions in face value and overrules inventing any additional confusion in the name of Allah in extremely initimidating words! There is a clear indication that any additional effort to promote "invented" restrictions in name of Allah would result in Scism. Also note how clearly the warning identifies the wrongdoing people as the ones exchanging suffering (as in 2:174) for forgiveness (as in 2:173).
When we start to take men's judgement and deductions and start promoting them as God's rule we start to create all these groups and sub-groups; sects and sub-sects. So much debate on whether horse, or insect, or rabit, or ostritch, or shark, or deer is halal - we will keep on debating until we surrender to the exact words of Allah and take them as enough! Let's avoid what Allah says haram - and for evertything else let's use our brain. Such a simple solution! If we keep on duducting this and that as halal and haram - never will we agree and never will find true peace.
[Those of you who want to read these verses "in the context" of your arguable deductions from 5:1, could you please help me understand why Allah has totally seggeregated these verses from Sura 5 and put them in an earlier Sura?]
3. "The food of the people of book are legitimate for us, and our foods are legitimate for them" - this, by no way implies that Jewish food restrictions (in part or whole) are still applicable for us. This is again another creative deduction. Qur'an clearly says that Jewish food restrictions were merely a punishment for their envy. Furthermore, the following verse mandates that - for any food to be prohibited by Allah there needs to be explicit prohibition in the scripture - otherwise judgement of which food is delicious is left to men -
3:93 All foods happened to be allowed for the children of Israel except which Israel made prohibited upon his soul from before that Torah was sent down. Say, “So bring the Torah and recite it if you happen to be sincere.”
4. Allah discusses the food restrictions in details in Sura 5 (al-Maidah) and 6 (al-An'am). The overall theme of these suras regarding food-restrictions is that the contemporaries of the messenger were inventing various food restrictions by themselves and attributing them to Allah. Allah clearly denounces and rejects any such innovations. In my earlier posts I have disucssed there are additional restrictions on how animals should be killed for food in 5:3, but strictly from the eater's perspective the 4 restrictions have been reiterated once again. The verse 6:145 - carries the final verdict on this topic in
as general and unequivocal wording as possible.
6:145 Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.
Now I have seen there is a strong "tendency" in reading the above verse "only" in the context of preceeding verses where some innovations relating to grazing livestocks are discussed. Let me ask you this hypothetical question - In my annual office party my colleages offers me wine. I refuse and say, "I never drink any kind of alcoholic drink." The next day, my colleage sees me drinking whisky at a pub. Shouldn't he be surprised? If I say, my comment about not drinking alcoholic drink was made only in the context of office party and wine - would that be a satisfactory explanation? NO, it won't be. Because though I made the comment in a given context - the WORDING of my statement was GENERAL, so my colleague has every right to take the statement at its face value as a general statement applicable in all context. Similarly the above verse (6:145) carries a statement with GENERAL WORDING and hence its scope supercedes any given context. This is one verse that nullifies every Islamic secondary source that innovate false hadises attributing to our Messenger saying he prohibited this and that in addition to what Qur'an says.
Unless of course, you believe Allah is a little bit casual in his word choice - He really doesn't mean what he says etc. My kid sees a big elephant and says, "Wow! This is the biggest thing I have ever seen." - We all know he means this is the biggest "animal" that he has seen because surely he has seen the sun and the moon - which are much bigger. So, just like the statement of my kid which we have to understand (with a little bit of sympathy for his immaturity) within the given context - we have to understannd the verses of Allah with a little bit of grain of salt.
Nauzubillah. Sorry, my friends - I cannot support such a point of view. If Qur'an is the verses from the Master of the Universe, which I know it is - We MUST take His general statements at face value - not cast doubt over them assuming they are meant to be understood in a restricted context. His words are final and precise and there is no doubt in it.
5. Finally let's come to Sura 16 (Surah al-Nahl), After a fair bit of gap Allah raises the issue of food restriction for one more time and gives us his clear words -
16:114 So eat of what Allah has provided you - legitimate, delicious - and appreciate the blessings of Allah if He is the one you are slave to.
16:115 He has only prohibited for you the dead, the blood and the flesh of swine, and what has been initiated for other than Allah - with it. Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring - then indeed Allah is Forgiving, Kind.
16:116 And do not say that for which your tounges attributes the lie - "This is legitimate and this is prohibited." So that you invent about Allah the lie. Indeed those who invent about Allah the lie, will not succeed.
Now, after receiving such crystal clear instructions from my Master, how can I attribute any additional restrictions in name of Allah which is not clearly declared as "haram" in Qur'an. I will promote a lot of things as not delicious [Tayyibat] and hence not permisible - but clarify that it is my own judgement and
Qur'an mandates application of sound judgement.
But, The restrictions from Allah are those declared by Allah clearly and consistently in Qur'an. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you still deny my friends - I have no choice but to resort to 6:147.
6:147 Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.”
There are numerous "Quran only / God only" forums in the internet. My evaluation is that all of them that I found - reject the "innovations" brought by the so-called "traditional scholars", but in turn brings new prejudices, innovations themselves. Apparently Brother Joseph and you people on this forum seemed to be such an exception! But, if you prove me wrong, then my time and effort is better spent in personal study of the words of my Master.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
Arman