Messages

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General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 12, 2016, 05:18:52 AM »

Salam Truth Seeker 


Yes that study says that the number of homosexual men as in outed men is more than outed women. I am sure u know due to stigma a lot of people do not come out of the closet! By prone to homosexuality I did not mean homosexual men are more in number than homosexual women. The true number can never be found because of a lot of factors. What I meant was are men more inclined towards homosexual behaviour than women? As in men have more tendency or preference towards homosexual behaviour than women This is not proven.
 
More outed men than women does not give enough data to conclude that. Inclinination or behaviour prediction is not made based on numbers of outed men or women. We cannot say men are more inclined from any such study. We can only say more men are out than women from that study. One cannot comment on the nature of homosexuality or men's inclination towards that. We can only say the homosexual population in UK has more males.

About the financial witnesses, the first woman's testimony is heard first if it is accepted then the second woman's testimony is not required. The case is then solved by the testimony of one man and the first woman. This point is often overlooked that the second woman is back up if the first one messes up. If the first one messes up her testimony is not accepted, the second woman's testimony is accepted. If both testimonies match, then the first one's is enough! In all cases the witness remains one man and one woman.

Anyway let's focus on what we have in common, we both agree the message is both for men and women the emphasis bit we disagree about but that is ok. 

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General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 12, 2016, 04:18:58 AM »

Salam Truth Seeker

I did not say there aren't physiological or behavioral differences between men and women. But what you are implying is that women are more prone to gossiping.

Then by your own logic men are more prone to exhibit homosexual behavior since men are singled out in that way. I am sorry but apart from physiological differences, there are no concrete proof that women are more querrelsome or men are more likely to be homosexuals. The Quran does not imply this nor does medical science or psychology.

Yes men and women react differently when exposed to different stimuli. Both mental and physical stimuli. But, there is no study where women were proven to be more prone to fighting and backbiting. Plus, there are always anamolies, there are women who are stronger than an average man, there are men who love to gossip. Behaviour is not something that is concrete between genders, it is fluid. Both genders are capable of behaving anyway they want. Psychology does not say that all men are aggressive and all women are submissive, a lot of factors have to be considered, and behaviour is a very subjective issue.

Yes the term 'flesh of brothers' is masculine pronoun and it can include both genders. I agree. My message was all along this, that both men and women are the subject in this particular context. The previous verses and the verses following the one quoted by Yahya, leave no doubt that both men and women are being given a lesson on how to behave with fellow believers.

Why women were singled out in this verse? Why men were singled out in the verse of homosexuality? These questions do not have a answer from the Quran. It is as it is. We are not told any such thing in the Quran that women are more prone to backbiting or homosexuality is something men find more attractive than women. I agree with Amira when she said verses often revealed a general ruling in a context. Sometimes when a situation arose, verses were revealed, but that does not mean both these verses were revealed only for a particular situation. Backbiting is not allowed or both men and women and so is homosexual behaviour.


A verse can be interpreted in many ways, I agree, but that does not mean we should accept the interpretation where one verse paints a negative picture of any one gender in particular.

If u say that women are being warned with more emphasis then you have to also conclude that when it comes to homosexuality, the emphasis is on men. I am sure none of us believe this to be true that men are more prone to homosexual behaviour.

We have to be consistent in our approach towards interpreting the Quran. And multiple interpretation is always a possibility but we are asked by God to follow the best and just interpretation.

Btw I did not mean to accuse you of creating dissension between genders, pls do not feel offended, it was never my intention.

 

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General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 11, 2016, 11:16:56 PM »

Salam Truthseeker

The verse does single out women but not with the intention that women are more prone to such behaviour. Sorry but there is no indication of this in scripture nor in research papers in behavioral science. Painting any gender as more aggressive is only going to put gasoline on the gender wars that we often witness. Not only that such interpretation of verses result in the belief that women are targeted in the Quran as more unrighteous of the two genders by some people. But, we know it is not like that, God does not show favoritism in the Quran.

But I would like to ask u then why was this issue of disgreements between believers begun in the previous verses with the message that the Prophet should not be influenced by any party of beleivers? Surely you do not mean that the focus has been women all along and that the Prophet used to mediate fights between women always? Why was the masculine term ' flesh of brothers' used? Or the phrase ' believers are brothers' used? For some people usage of these may seem like only men backbite! And that is why it is said 'flesh of your dead brother'! If the focus is fights between women then shouldn't the usage also be ' flesh of dead sisters'?

If we take a look at the gender of soldiers at present or in the past, most were men. Does that mean men are more aggressive prone to fighting?  or is it that because they are generally naturally blessed with more physical strength than women they make more suitable soldiers for war, where physical strength gives an edge. Can we say men are more aggressive? Is that fair?

I am sure you are familiar with the verse where God disapproves of homosexuality. The verse discusses such behaviour in the context of men. But can we then conclude men were singled out because men are more prone to be homosexuals? Does it make sense? Does real life medical  science data support that conclusion that men are mostly homosexuals? R women not homosexual? Did God not know there r lesbians? Then why did this verse not mention them? Or the issue of lesbianism clarified in detail some place else in Quran?

Sometimes abhorrent behaviour in the Quran is discussed in the context of one gender, that doesn't mean others not belonging to that particular gender cannot/do not take part in such behaviour. The focus is never the gender or proving that one gender is more prone to sinning than another.

I still think that the issue includes both men and women!

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General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 10, 2016, 05:44:24 PM »

Salam yahya

Because the issue of disagreements between men has been adrressed in the previous verses in the same sura when Allah was saying that if the Prophet were to listen to all of the believers' whims, then the belivers would have been in trouble but Allah has made the love of faith stronger and dearer to the true believers than their ego and their need to win arguments. Allah has asked the Prophet to take just decisions and side with the beleivers who are more just in a disagreement between two parties of believers.

In the surah it is being alluded that just because they are believers, no one will be favored, the Prophet is asked to fight the oppressor party among the two till justice is served. When the issue of disagreements between two believers arise, Allah is letting us know He wants the Prophet to be on the side of the righteous person.
We often forget that the Prophet was often asked to mediate between two or multiple feuding parties. To define the role of the Prophet during such conflict between believers and also to inform/assure the believers that the Prophet has been instructed to be fair and just no matter who is the person feuding. This is very important because maybe some people's hearts thought that Prophet will favor those believers who were personally closer to him or more socially powerful and rich believers will be favored in conflicts. But God leaves no scope for such a doubt in belivers' minds when He says that being a believer does not automatically grant u Allah's and the Prophet's favor, if u r justified and u r the one who is correct and just, the Prophet will side with u.

Then Allah moves on to say what kind of a relationship He expects believers to have. He expects believers to behave like brothers ( merciful, forgiving and kind) to each other despite having differences among themselves. God then clarifies that women as well should be just and not oppress, during those times most women were not involved in the structuring of a society i.e the judiciary etc. Women were in charge of household matters but everyone knows that petty politics and fights also occur between women in those surroundings, some women domestically abuse other women, they call each other names etc. So God was asking all people be they men or women to be just and not oppress each other.

The following verses then say that if believers continue to backbite and slander and be mean to each other, why do they do such things? Would they like to eat the flesh of their brothers? Why is brothers used here? Does it mean people only backbite about men? People don't backbite about females? Obviously the answer is no. Males, females, all people backbite! But the point is to Allah it is like we are ripping into the flesh of someone who is dear to us. When we read that verse we can understand just how abhorrent God finds such behaviour among believers.

Then Allah continues to address believers and tells us that all people come from the same initial pair of humans, how we all have the same roots and our purpose is to get to know each other and be kind and just with each other, God divided us amin different nations but no nation or people or tribe is superior or is dearer to Allah. How the most noble/righteous among us are the dearest to Allah.

To summarise, mentioning women seperately does not mean anything sinister exists among women or something like that. It just means Allah is clarifying that He expects women to not be bullies to each other and be just. Generally women dealt with the household issues and domestic issues, mainly Allah is saying no matter in which sphere of life ( social life, professional, domestic household, judiciary etc) there is a disagreement between believers, the believers are expected to be just even if it means going against family members and friends. If the Prophet is asked to be the judge, then he is asked to not side with the oppressor.

The verse u cite is not singling out women with any purpose in mind. We always have to read surrounding verses to get the hang of the context. Believing women fight among themsleves, believing men also fight among themselves and so do believing men and women. The verse is not singling out women as more aggressive or as more prone to fighting or as more unjust or cruel among the two genders. I believe that the intention was to bring women and men under the injuction of justice, forgiveness and mercy.

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General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 09, 2016, 07:23:15 PM »

Salam everyone

U know sometimes at a party, when we are about to give a speech in English we greet by saying ' Goodmorning / Goodevening everyone' then in the next sentence we say welcome ladies and gentlemen. Now, we already did greet all males and females when we said ' goodmorning everyone' but still we said ladies and gentlemen next but does it mean there is a reason behind this? Not really, it is just a manner of speaking or style of speaking. Every language is beautiful and different, and in every language we have a lot of options for saying the same thing in a different way. I believe here God is just using one of those styles.

We also use the word humans, when we want to talk about our species, but someone might like to make use of the term ' homo sapiens' which mean essentially the same thing.

There are also verses where Allah says that believers should not marry unbelievers and again somewhere else He explains this in detail:
Do not marry (you men) the ‘mushrikaat’ until they believe; for even a believing slave woman is better than a ‘mushrika’, even if you like her. And do not marry (you women) the ‘mushrikeen’ until they believe. A believing slave man is better than a mushrik, even if you like him. These invite to the fire, while God invites to Paradise and forgiveness, with His permission, and He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may remember" 2:221

God has already made use of 'believers' but He chose to expand it by mentioning both genders as well, it can be seen as a way of just clarifying a concept in a more detailed way.

Also the particular verse u r talking about is reffering to disagreements between beleivers and how beleivers can be mean to each other and insult each other when they have a difference in opinion about something. God tells us in the previous verses of the same surah that beleivers will have differences of opinion but we are brothers to each other, by which He means we should be kind and forgiving to each other just like the way we are quick to forgive our family members. So, when God said 'believers' are brothers in the previous verses, He expanded the concept to include both males and females in this verse, saying both males and females should be forgiving and merciful and respectful to fellow believers be they male or female. God is warning us against calling each other names and basically telling us not to be bullies.

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 07:56:41 AM »

Salam Duster and Eliiah


It is very kind of u guys to say so! Please pray for me as I will for all of u here so that we can be steadfast in faith . We can be of use to God and other believers and God does not derail us from the path to our ultimate destination, Him.

It is definitely a trying time for all of us, but I believe knowledge of the Quran and patience are the only two things we need to sail through life no matter what!

God Bless 

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 07:24:46 AM »

Wanderer

We are not told that life in hereafter will be nothing like the one we have on Earth.
We will have food and companionship and gardens and streams. Some common things we have enjoyed here on Earth as well.

But the thing is, we do not know what kind of food heaven will have some are mentioned like fruits etc. More tastier fruits? Bigger fruits? More variety? We are not told the details.

The belief that life in the hearafter will have nothing in common with life here on Earth is unfounded!
If that was so then there would'nt have been a point in saying there will be food in heaven or companionship in heaven.

All this just means, we will have food, we do not know the details about the menu . We will have companions, we do not know what kind of a relationship we will have with them

U urself said earthly attributes like gender will most likely cease to exist,  understand that they might not cease to exist! We do not know! The new being that we will become may have not only two genders like male/ female! We might have multiple genders or be genderless. The possibilities are endless when there is a Quranic silence. The answer is we do not know, God knows!
 
U r not understanding that even if the word kawaiba is feminine, it does not mean definitively mean kawaiba will be a   female entity in the hearafter . The entity kawaiba may be a female or male or genderless. Just like Allah is genderless but refers to Himself as a HE. Why do u easliy believe that God does not have a gender? He refers to Himself as a masculine entity. I hope u understand the Arabic language is different, masculine/feminine words does not always tell us the gender of the subject! The Arabic word for moon is a feminine word , but do u believe the moon is female? Anything else? 

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 06:53:14 AM »

Wanderer

Maybe u will not believe it, but u have no idea how close to home ur situation is for me. Yes it is a very scary time to be a muslim, not only in America, but all over the world! Non- extremist muslims are being killed in muslim countries too. Pls have faith, this too shall pass.

Most of us cannot even discuss our religious beliefs openly! Even with muslims because of our approach to the Quran and Islam in general. I cannot imagine how difficult it is for u to deal with such social repercussion of the action of a segment of people who proclaim to share our religious belief.

There is a reason why most of us are anonymous. We are not safe among muslims as well. They won't acknowledge us as muslims because of how we approach Islam and our moderate and Quran-centric beliefs.

A lot of us do not share the same philosophy with our family memebers as well. It does get lonely. But do not think for a second Allah does not care for u. He does, because He has chosen to guide u. Pls do not feel like u r not welcome, u r very much encouraged to ask questions, just wait for a response for a while! U r not alone

There is a reason why we r being tested, but this is the right time to cultivate patience. Whenever we r told about adversity faced by believers for just beleiving in God, Allah asks us to be patient.

The first thing that I will suggest u is to understand that u have to begin with a clean slate, make it a point to remember that there is a possibilty u were highly misguided by traditional muslims. But now that u r here, and u learned about the Quran-centric approach, subject any prior religious ideas/beliefs that u had to this rigorous method of finding out the truth and have faith in Allah. He has guided u so far and He will continue to do so in future inshallah.

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 06:32:41 AM »

Wanderer

By procreation I did not mean to say we will have sons or daughters, but I admit it was a poor choice of words on my part. Because of ur young age I did not want to make use of some words, but basically by marriage and procreation in heaven I was trying to paint a picture using similitude, I wanted to convey that we do not know whether the companionship will be of a sexual nature or not. Truth be told we do not know anything about the nature of the companionship u mention. Anything can happen! It is God who will decide.

I hope u will understand my reluctance to say anything concrete about this issue because we are not told so in the Quran. I cannot give u a yes/no response because it will then mean I am lying and telling u sth about God and His plans without knowledge and sorry to say I will be the only one to pay the price if I dare make such a claim.

I feel we have reached an impasse. I have nothing new to add, so maybe others might choose to carry on the discussion but right now I have nothing more to say.

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 06:08:36 AM »

Wanderer

It seems you find it difficult to understand or accept answers to ur queries which are not a simple yes/no. I did not say there will be procreation, I said it is not known whether there will be procreation or not.
And why does it bother u so much? I said there might/might not be a possibility. I did not know what exactly u wanted to know about the nature of the companionship between dewellers of heaven. What makes u so sure there won't be procreation? What Quranic evidence do u have to support ur belief? Why is it whenever we say things with Quranic evidence about concepts/queries, u find it unacceptable because they don't prove ur preconceived notions about afterlife or any other topic to be true?
What is it u find difficult to accept when the questions u ask are answered in a Quranic silence? I do not understand whether u do not understand that there are things we r not told in the Quran because Allah chose not to inform us or u do not simply want to accept a non-committal answer that of the Quran is silent on the matter!

People on this forum will not give u a yes/no answer when there is a Quranic silence on the matter. It doesn't matter how many times u badger us, we will not speculate. Br. Jospeph's article did not conclusively promote or deny the existence or non-existence of gender among heavenly companions. We do not know whether we r going to have a gender or we are not going to have a gender, same is the case with our companions, hurs, kawaiba whatever u want to call them.

Btw nobody is ganging up on u! I did not comment on the spat u were having with Duster and did not take any sides initially. But it does seem Duster was onto something, age does matter because clearly u r finding it difficult to grasp the concepts we are telling u or u r simply dissmissing them when our answers are not reinforcing ur preconcieved notions about Quran related topics.

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 03:54:12 AM »

Ok let's for the sake of argument, we say the companions will be males or females ( may Allah forgive me for saying sth I don't know for sure) what is the problem? No Where in the Quran does Allah say we will have gender or we won't have gender! We are not informed about the physical characteristics of the new being we will become. Br. Joseph never said we will not have genders ( physical) in the hereafter. He said nafs, the human soul seems to not have a gender, but our nafs inhabit our earthly bodies. I have a female body but that does not mean my nafs is female! The soul and the physical body that houses it does not both have to have a gender. Gender is a physiological manifestation of ur genetic makeup. The soul may not have a gender, not that our bodies don't or won't in the future. The point is, if we make it to heaven, we will have appropriate companions, whose companionship we can enjoy! It will be a new world, with new rules! Btw the Quran says we existed prior to the life we have here, so we existed in some form, but we r not told much about the existence we had, similarly because it does not help us in our test here, and we clearly do not remember anything about our previous existence. But we did exist, the Quran talks about two deaths, there are some posts in the forum about it. Pls search for them for more info. 

As far as the companions being male or female, they might be! But God will pair us with appropriate companion(s) ( we are not informed how many companions we each will have) . But if u r specifically asking whether being male or female and having an opposite gender companion will mean there will be marriage like relationship like we have on Earth, with our heavenly companions, we do not know. Whether we will procreate, or procreation will be a possibilty? We do not know! What companionship means exactly, we do not know. We r not told about the rules of interaction betwen the inhabitants of heaven/hell and those who accompany them there.

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 03:02:02 AM »

He says most likely, which means it is not a sure thing! Nobody knows for sure whether they will have gender or will be genderless, Br. Joseph makes this very clear. Throughout the article he cites multiple verses where he says eventhough the word is masculine or feminine, it might just mean splendid companions. All Arabic words are either feminine or masculine, even non living things are given feminine or masculine  name. There is no concept of gender neutral 'it' in Arabic.

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 02:48:59 AM »

Salam wanderer,

Br. Joseph actually said in the article that the words may have masculine or feminine annotations, but those words are best translated as 'splendid companions'. There is a notes section at the end of the article and he clarified it there.  He actually said that most translators translate kawaiba as a female entity, and they ' might not be wrong' . The point is the companions may have genders or genderless , nobody knows for sure! Just because a feminine or masculine word is used, it does not mean that the subject is a male or female in nature

  " despite the popular understanding of the word ‘Kawaiba’ as a reference to youthful women, it should also to be noted that the root – ‘K-AYN-BA’ has an underlying connotation of prominence, splendour, something which is physically prominent, of nobility, glory or anything elevated. It is also a reference to a square chamber or building. What will come as a surprise to many is that the same root is used in the word ‘KABAH’ in the Masjid Haram, the Holy sanctuary. Hence, some commentators continue to render ‘Kawaib’ as ‘splendid companions’ or ‘companions’. However, given the general usage and feminine plural noun of the word, there is support that this may be a reference to a female entity."

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General Discussions / Re: Kawaiba

« on: August 09, 2016, 02:34:52 AM »

Salam wanderer

why does translating 'kawaiba' as a female entity bother u? How does it bother u? U just said it does but what about this upsets u exactly? If u could elaborate maybe I could give u an answer u might find acceptable.

The point made in the article was that we as in humans, both males and females will be created a new creation. We are not informed in the Quran whether we will have physiological gender representation i.e a male or female body in afterlife. It is said we will have companions.

The companions may not be human, there is an allusion to the fact that the companions of the right hand might not have been humans or were sent to Earth and tested. But we will be able to enjoy the company of humans who were righteous on Earth. But we, humans, won't remain humans in afterlife, we will be a new creation.

Not a lot is said about life in the hereafter because it does not serve much purpose or have much effect on the lives we lead on earth. Allah just uses similitudes to inform us that we will have food and companionship in hereafter. We r not informed about the nature of companionship between dwellers of heaven in detail. We simply do not know what purpose heavenly companions will have in afterlife.

Now, I am not sure whether u r familiar with the concept of intersex/hermaphrodite human beings. They are humans who are not physically a full human male or a full human female. Not much is said about them in the Quran. But they represent the diversity in Allah's creation on Earth. Who is to say we will have two, three genders in afterlife? Or maybe no gender at all? The answer again is we are not informed about these things

The article also mentions that the sun in Arabic, 'shams' is a masculine word and 'qamar' the moon, is feminine. But that does not mean the sun is male and moon is female! Every language has its own rules, and unfortunately the arabic language does not have gender neutral words! Allah talks about Himself in the Quran as a HE, but we are informed, Allah does not have a gender. There are many places in the Quran where we are given examples of living and non-living things and either feminine or masculine words are  used to talk about them, but they might not have genders in reality.

So, eventhough the verses u mentioned make use of feminine and masculine words to describe heavenly companions, the companions may not really be male or female in nature. And even if they do have genders, what purpose the genders will serve in afterlife , we r not informed.

I would also like to request u to be patient, because most of us have other obligations but we take out some time from our real lives whenever we can to help each other out. Sometimes, it is going to take a while to get an answer from us because maybe we are researching them for you, or maybe we do not want to mislead u with a quick answer which might be not well researched. None of us claim to have all the answers, sometimes we wait patiently for Br. Joseph's input, and mostly we do not post in those threads, we wait for him or someone who has knowledge to answer at their convenience, the person who is answering our queries is actually doing us a favor, teaching us, and we never rush our teachers in real life now do we?

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General Discussions / Re: malik or maalik in "Fatiha", different recitations ?

« on: June 15, 2016, 05:55:43 AM »

Salam

There is study tool and resources section on the main website. Did u get to have a look them? If not, check those out, maybe you will find what u r looking for.