Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

[optimist]

Yes, "upon which the name of Allah has been remembered" is in past tense. To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentioning Allah just before I eat.

Salaam!

NO. it is in the passive form, meaning, the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name.

You are now saying that the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process.  You have diluted your stand (earlier you were specific about mentioning God's name before eating), but now reached up to the stage from food preparation till eating (still finding it difficult to go beyond this stage to slaughtering!). 

My questions:   I have been repeatedly asking you several times, but without any reply from you.   Sorry! I have to re-phrase my question based on your comment above.   

1. Is it mandatory to mention God's name between any time after slaughtering until we eat, in view of the clear instruction in the verse "if we are true believers in Allah's law".? 

2. Suppose in a case where I am personally convinced that the animal is slaughtered mentioning Allah's name, still then, is it required for me to mention Allah's name (anytime starting from food preparation till I eat)?

Please you should not avoid answering the above two questions this time.  Please brother Arman.  Thanks

Most of the time I do not know the people who slaughter the animals I eat - so it is impractical for me to ascertain whom they "really" remembered during slaughter even if someone certifies the food as Halal. Because, at the end of the day, those who are certifying are not my Master - Allah is. So is it OK for me to NOT remember Allah over a food certified Halal? I don't think so.  Per my humble understanding I am only accountable to my Master for whom I remember over my food. That's how I understand the verses of my Master and that's how I try to practice.

Good that you raised a practical question.  Well appreciated.  Let me ask you another question.  Most of the time we also do not know whether the meat we actually eat is from a dead animal and it is also impractical for me to ascertain the meat is not prepared from a dead animal.  So what is the solution under these circumstances?  Just mentioning Allah's name before eating?

Kindly note, these practical issues and difficulties are not the reasons for the rules stipulated by Allah.  It is the responsibility of the Muslim society/ state to ensure that they have proper licensed slaughtering houses where animals are slaughtered following Islamic rules, managed by Muslims only, no dead animals are brought to the slaughtering houses, all animals brought for slaughtering are healthy and devoid of major sickness,  no animals are slaughtered dedicated to others other than Allah, etc.  If no Islamic state is in existence, the slaughtering has to be handled through collective efforts of Muslims in an area.   It will be the responsibility of Muslims in an area to ensure that strict Islamic rules are followed.  You are trying to bypass a rule with excuses.   I believe that if something happens even after all the precautions are taken, we do not have to worry about the consequences.   Please note, if an animal is slaughtered dedicated to others other than Allah, even if you mention a thousand times Allah’s name, its meant is not going to be Halaal for you.  We have a duty to ensure that we do not eat animals dedicated to others.   Allah certainly may forgive us if we eat meant of an animal (after all precautions are taken) on the belief that it is not dedicated to others other than Allah and that Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter.   This is entirely a different issue. 

Regards,
Optimist

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

"Earlier you were specific about mentioning God's name before eating"... "You are now saying that the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process." - Sorry, I fail to understand the point you are trying to make here. Food preparation - slaughter these processes all come "before eating". How am I diluting the stance then? What I tried to mean is - if we are involved in the food preparation first-hand we can remember God's name at that time - but if our engagement with the food starts just before we eat, then the most appropriate time to remember God over it also comes just before we eat. Hope this is clear now.

1. Is it mandatory to mention God's name between any time after slaughtering until we eat, in view of the clear instruction in the verse "if we are true believers in Allah's law".?

Depends on how do you define "Mention". Per my understanding the arabic word Allah has mentioned in this context is dhikr - which is best translated as "remember". So, per my understanding it IS MANDATORY to Ensure that God's name has been REMEMBERED over the food we eat - anytime starting from the time of slaughter till we eat. The best (and only risk-free) process to ensure the same is to Remember God ourselves over our own food.

2. Suppose in a case where I am personally convinced that the animal is slaughtered mentioning Allah's name, still then, is it required for me to mention Allah's name (anytime starting from food preparation till I eat)?

You are not required to "mention" Allah's name - that, per my understanding is Optional or "Best practice" - but you are always required to remember that the food you eat is a mercy from Allah - the Master of the Universe. If you are a Muslim, then the only way you can possibly not remember it is - when you dedicate the food to someone else forgetting the instructions of Allah. That, per my understanding, would be a willful disobedience (fisk) - even if you are eating from an animal which has been slaughtered by someone else in the name of Allah.

Most of the time we also do not know whether the meat we actually eat is from a dead animal and it is also impractical for me to ascertain the meat is not prepared from a dead animal.  So what is the solution under these circumstances?  Just mentioning Allah's name before eating?

Yes, it is not always possible for us to be 100% sure if an animal has been slaughtered in perfectly legitimate manner - let alone who remembered what during slaughtering. Even the people who certify halal food only does that on sample inspection basis - so who knows what's really going on in the slaughterhouse behind the curtain where numerous animals are slaughtered on daily basis. I believe that's why our Merciful Master has provided us with an indemnity clause in verse 5:4. Per my understanding the verse implies - it is OK for us to eat any meat as long as we ensure 3 things:

1) The food is delicious (taiyyibat), i.e. the meat is in good, wholesome, aromatic edible condition.
2) Those who processed the meat (specially slaughtering) are "trained" in the proper method. [This, per my understanding, can be reasonably ensured through Halal/Kosher or some other comparable certification.]
3) We remember God's name over the food ourselves.


May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Armanaziz]

One clarification - when I am talking about "meat" in my above post I am refering to meat EXCEPT the explicit prohibitions in Qur'an - which includes the flesh of swine.

Just mentioning this to avoid any confusion.

Regards,
Arman

[optimist]

Salaam!

I did not see any comment from you for a material point I raised regarding verse 6:118 that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name (the verb is clearly in passive form).

Your assumption that it IS MANDATORY to Ensure that God's name has been REMEMBERED over the food we eat - anytime starting from the time of slaughter till we eat is wrong.   It is at the time of killing an animal Allah’s name has to be remembered.  NO where Quran makes us mandatory to mention Allah's name at the time of eating.  It can be only termed as only Optional or "Best practice" and that too with any food, not just meat.   

Unfortunately, your explanation suddenly makes it mandatory for us to mention Allah’s name before eating and it has a serious implication that we ignore the importance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals based on the belief that mentioning Allah’s name at the time of eating would be sufficient.   You are misinterpreting Quranic verses to suite your practical easiness.   You want to eat from anywhere without caring who slaughtered the animals, whether it is dedicated to others or not.   Through this misinterpreation, you will be held responsible for two wrongs in one sitting, (1) You goes against Quran which makes it mandatory to mention Allah’s name at the time of slaughtering (suddenly it becomes just as a 'best practice'), whereas Quran makes it mandatory in this verse 6:118, which is further corroborated by Verse  22:36 in which it states "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line".   (2) You are making it mandatory to mention Allah’s name at the time of eating, something which Allah did not make it mandatory for the people in his incredible mercy to mankind.   According to your explanation the mercy from God is that we just need to say bismilla to make any food halaal and we do not need to bother how the animal is slaughtered, if it is dedicated to others, etc (this will be the necessary result of your explanation) ......Sigh!

Please take care!

Regards,
Optimist

[Sword]

Dear brother Optimist,


Salam Alaykum.


I am not here to debate this matter, but simply want to ask you a question. Do you think only animals during slaughtering can be dedicated to a deity, and not other types of food? What if fruits and fishes are dedicated to other false deities by the people who collect them and sell them?



Regards.

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

I have mentioned before and saying again - you are absolutely fee to understand the verses of Qur'an as per your own intellect. You are responsible for your understanding, and I am for mine. But, unfortunately you seem to be misrepresenting or misinterpreting what I am saying - which is not acceptable.  Below I am trying to rectify the misrepresentations that you have made about my position - the underlined sentences reflect your accusitions and what follows are my clarifications:

Your explanation suddenly makes it mandatory for us to mention Allah’s name before eating and it has a serious implication that we ignore the importance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals based on the belief that mentioning Allah’s name at the time of eating would be sufficient.

The above statement is incorrect at two levels:

1) I did not say it is mandatory to "mention" Allah's name before eating; I said it is mandatory to ensure Allah's name has been REMEMBERED over what we eat. - that's per my understanding of verses of Qur'an (6:118-121). Then additionally I deducted that, per my understanding, the only practical and risk-free way to adhere to this Qur'anic commandment is by remembering Allah over our own food ourselves. [If you know of a better way - take it.]

2) I did not ask to ignore the imprortance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals when we ourselves are engaged in the process of slaughtering - that is quite obviously encouraged in 22:36. All I am saying is, for a 'non-pork" meat which is otherwise expected to be acquired and processed in the prescribed legitimate manner (Al Qur'an 5:3), and not known to have been dedicated to anyone other than God either - whether or not God's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter should not be the deciding factor in decreeing the meat as haram/halal. Because Allah has SPECIFICALLY given us the option of eating such meat by remembering Allah over it ourselves (Al Qur'an 5:4).

You want to eat from anywhere without caring who slaughtered the animals, whether it is dedicated to others or not.

I have always maintained and continue to maintain that if we have specific information that any food (be it meat, fish or vegetable) has been dedicated to other than Allah - it becomes Haram for us. Because eating such items could be viewed as our implicit support in the act and hence would be considered as a willful disobedience (fisk) on our part. In my country there are practices where so called "Muslims" dedicate animals at the shrine of dead priests with a hope that the dead priest would intercede for them with Allah. Na'usubillah - I do consider such practices and meat of such animals Haram. However, if we are compelled to eat such food without coveting or recurring any more than necessary then there is NO SIN IN IT - because our Master is Forgiving, Kind. (Al Qur'an 2:173)

But you got my intensions right that I want to make dietary rules as simple and easy as Allah has made it (Al Qur'an 5:93; 6:145). I have seen "Muslims" who would not eat anything except water and plain steamed rice in countries where they cannot find a "Halal Certified" restaurant. I sincerely believe this cannot be a correct method to appreciate the bounty of our Almighty Master. I do believe that our scholars and "imams" have made the dietary rules far more complicated and difficult than Qur'an prescribes it to be. I want to understand the real prohibitions of Qur'an so that I can freely try all the good things (tayyibat) that are not prohibited and then appreciate my Master for His mercy.

Dear brother - if you still have confusion about what I am concluding - then probably it is because of limitation of my communication ability. Given that, if you still accuse me of saying things which I did not say - I'll probably just ignore it.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[optimist]

Then additionally I deducted that, per my understanding, the only practical and risk-free way to adhere to this Qur'anic commandment is by remembering Allah over our own food ourselves. [If you know of a better way - take it.]

Salaam!!

You have been Continuously  stating 'practical and risk-free way' as a main point in your comments.    I kindly request you to think with me.

We are supposed NOT to eat meat from the dead.  You will agree with me.   Is there any 'practical and risk-free way' to ensure that you are not eating dead meat?

So also, is there any practical and risk free way to ensure that the food we eat is not the meat of Swine, dogs and rats, not dedicated to Allah, devoid of animal with serious sickness, etc.?   

My question: Why do you insist for practical and risk free way for mentioning Allah's name issue alone??

According to me, there are sufficient reasons for Allah to make it mandatory to mention Allah's name during slaughter  (1) We are killing animals they are also creatures like us, so it has to be by mentioning the name of Allah  (2) It can further ensure that animals are properly slaughtered (no dead, other animals which we do not eat are involved) (3) It can further ensure that  animals are slaughtered only in the name of Allah alone.

Regards,
Optimist

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brother Optimist:

Wa alikum As Salam.

I do not understand why you keep on asking the same questions again and again. I have mentioned before that in verse 5:4 Allah has given the eaters the indemnity over what they eat as long as a) they eat good things, b) ensuring they are from a source who are taught the right process of animal slaughter and last but not least c) they remember Allah over it themselves. I am just emphasizing the point C here. Even if we are unsure of whether Allah's name was pronounced at the time of slaughter - as long as we remember Allah's name over our own food - we have done the required due diligence from our part and hence we are risk free. Please refer to verse 5:4 and then let me know if you are still not getting the point.

I know according to you there is sufficient reason for Allah to make it mandatory to mention Allah's name during slaughter. According to a vegetarian buddhist, there is even more sufficient reasons for God to make all animals prohibited (how can we kill for food!). According to a hindu there is sufficient reason for God to make cows prohibited (we drink cow's milk, they are like our mother!). But you know what - I don't care. All I care about is what Allah has really prohibited based on His exact words - not what He should have or could have prohibited. My Master does not run short of words. He could have said "do not eat the animals which have not been slaughtered in My name" - if that was the intension. But He chose not to do so to make our life easy. I am deeply and specifically grateful to Allah for this kind gesture. I will eat the good things that my Master has provided me and appreciate Him - because He is the one I am slave to - then if I make a mistake, I know my Master is Forgiving, Kind.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[optimist]

Salaam brother Arman,

I have one important question.  The Quran states in Verse 6:119, the very next verse after 6:118 which you insist as individual responsiblity to mention Allah's name before eating;

وَمَا لَكُمْ أَلَّا تَأْكُلُوا مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ  

Meaning, "And why should you not eat of that over which God's name has been pronounced, seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to you what He has forbidden you [to eat] unless you are compelled [to do so]?"

Do you think Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating???

Looking forward to your comment.

Regards,
Optimist

[Armanaziz]

Wa alaikum as Salam, brother Optimist.

Yes I DO THINK that Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating. You think such a situation is absurd? Not really - try looking in a mirror.

Like I would happily eat good meat coming from a "non-religious" slaughterhouse where they have the procedure to conduct the slaughter legitimately - after I have remembered Allah over it.

And why shouldn't I eat such meat over which I have personally ensured Allah's name has been remembered seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to us what He has forbidden us [to eat] unless we are compelled [to do so] in verse 2:173?

Apparently you would not eat such meat even if you have option to remember God over it, right? Can you then please explain why you would not eat such meat in light of 6:119? Only because Qur'an mentions it in passive voice - so you have concluded someone else has to do the remembering for you? Then if your doctor tell you not to eat uncooked meat - in passive voice - would you understand it is not sufficient that you cook it by yourself, rather someone else has to cook it for you?

Best regards,
Arman

[optimist]

Wa alaikum as Salam, brother Optimist.

Yes I DO THINK that Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating. You think such a situation is absurd? Not really - try looking in a mirror.

Like I would happily eat good meat coming from a "non-religious" slaughterhouse where they have the procedure to conduct the slaughter legitimately - after I have remembered Allah over it.

And why shouldn't I eat such meat over which I have personally ensured Allah's name has been remembered seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to us what He has forbidden us [to eat] unless we are compelled [to do so] in verse 2:173?

Apparently you would not eat such meat even if you have option to remember God over it, right? Can you then please explain why you would not eat such meat in light of 6:119? Only because Qur'an mentions it in passive voice - so you have concluded someone else has to do the remembering for you? Then if your doctor tell you not to eat uncooked meat - in passive voice - would you understand it is not sufficient that you cook it by yourself, rather someone else has to cook it for you?

Best regards,
Arman

Dear brother Arman,  Salaaam!

Sorry to say I can not find any logic at all in your statement.   

If someone has already mentioned Allah's name / ensured himself that Allah's name is remembered,  THEN, it would certainly mean that he/she plans to eat and he/she has no problem to eat.   The question of asking "why should you not eat of that over which God's name has been pronounced" does not arise at all.  SIMPLE.   The question posed by Allah is NOT 'why you refuse to eat meat when you yourself have remembered Allah's name?'.  If someone has remembered Allah's name he certainly plans to eat.  The question posed by Allah is why you refuse to eat meat which is properly slaughtered mentioning Allah's name.  Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter.   

While appreciating your argument skill,  I  strongly disagree with your effort to bring up some strange, bizarre examples to fit the meaning of the verses of the Quran as if these strange examples are the one intended by Allah.   I kindly request you to take care.

Regards
Optimist

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

You have on one hand appreciated my argument skill and on the other hand saying you do not find in what I say "any logic at all". Usually if I do not find any logic in someone's statement I would not appreciate his argument skill - but then again how you and I eveluate logic and arguments may be different. Point noted.

I believe we both have reached the end of discussion here. You have summarized the focus of 6:119 with the following statement: "Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter." I agree with you except for the last 5 words (pointed in red) - which I still feel is an unwarranted addition to what Allah is saying in these verses.

If you still insist to add these words (i.e. "at the time of slaughter") - the burden of proof is upon you to show from exact words of Qur'an where you get these. I know you will jump to 22:36 - but please show me the linkage - show me how 22:36 is supposed to be the only process to remember Allah over the meat we eat. Per my reading of the words of Qur'an (in 22:34) this is supposed to be a recommended ritual (manasikan) for our community (ummah), like rituals have been prescribed to other communities - not a general dietary rule. For Allah has clearly allowed us to eat from the food of selected other communities in Al-Quran 5:5. If you have concluded that the linkage has to be there because your imam / scholar / master has told you so - then I leave you with them and their deductions. Indeed I have faced my face to the One who framed the heavens and the earth in precision and I do not happen to be one associating partners with Him.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,

Arman

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Arman The basic point is that you have to ensure that the animal is was right fully slaughtered taking Allah's name and you have to eat by taking Allah's name. No further discussions or clarification needed. The discussions are deemed to have concluded.

[Deliverance]

I am pondering over the Situation that allows to eat forbidden meat
6:119 Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to? Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

Question to the members ,when are we forced to eat such meat?Invitation?In the Outback?

If we do the whole proces for our one we can follow the instruction of Allah(st).
A:to choose the proper animal;slaugtering in the right way,mentioning the Name of Allah(st)
Aa:to avoid anmals overwhich not mentioned Name of Allah before (5:3)that are forbidden;collecting the Blood
Aaa:prepare your meal and eat from (A)

B:if you are not indulged in A till Aaa;meat from non-monotestic People/non-religious People;wilderness

So if we are not indulged in these proces of A till Aaa and we found ourself in an Invitation or we are in the wilderness,you are forced to Aa and it doesn´t matter if you are pronoucing now the the name of Allah(st)over it or not because its an emergency.
If according to some of you making the meat lawful anytime by saying""Bismillah"then there wouldn´t be the phrase which makes it mandotary to say it in the process of A:"Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden;..."except if we are forced like metioned above.

Again if we can eat meat without going through A and Aa just by saying "Bismiallah" to make it halal it wouldn´t be mentioned in the Quran the exception like i mentioned in B: where you can say the name anytime before eating.

My conclusion eating meat without knowing if it is slaughtered in the right way/over which the name of Allah(st)
has been not mentioned is not halal by saying the name.


regards

[optimist]

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

You have on one hand appreciated my argument skill and on the other hand saying you do not find in what I say "any logic at all". Usually if I do not find any logic in someone's statement I would not appreciate his argument skill - but then again how you and I eveluate logic and arguments may be different. Point noted.

Wassalam,

I appreciated your argument skill only.  I only meant that you can be a best Lawyer for someone who is on the wrong side. 

I believe we both have reached the end of discussion here. You have summarized the focus of 6:119 with the following statement: "Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter." I agree with you except for the last 5 words (pointed in red) - which I still feel is an unwarranted addition to what Allah is saying in these verses.

Your disagreement  "at the time of slaughter" is noted.  Let us replace these 5 words with what you have stated in post number 29 (last post in page 2).  The one I highlight in blue would be your comment. 

“The Focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced “anytime during the food preparation and serving process, the best time being just before eating”.

To quote you exactly what you mentioned in post number 29: “To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentioning Allah just before I eat.”

Again, with risk of repetition, let me state that, the question posed by Allah is NOT 'why you refuse to eat meat when you yourself have remembered Allah's name?'.  If someone has remembered Allah's name anytime during the food preparation and serving process, the best time being just before eating he certainly plans to eat.   You are making Allah’s question meaningless.

Sorry to strongly disagree (appreciating again your general argument skills).  This is all from my side.

Regards,
Optimist