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Offline Armanaziz

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 03:11:21 AM »
Bro Sardar:

Salamun Alaikum.

Of course we have to pronounce Allah's name at the time of slaughtering and MUST NOT dedicate animals or other foods to anyone other than Allah. - I am not debating over this point.

The question is if I am unsure whether God's name was pronounced over a meat at the time of slaughter - which otherwise has been processed through "Legal Slaughter" (e.g. Kosher meat), is it OK for us remember Allah's name over it at the time of eating and eat it. There my conclusion is - it should be OK.

Best regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Offline Saba

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2014, 06:27:51 AM »
Here is an example in Qoran:

-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.

وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ


GOD said if one forgets , ask for forgiveness.

Salaam good logic, Where did you get the idea that prophet Joseph slipped up and put his trust in other than Allah???? As far as I can tell reading all the translations - it was one of the prisoners that forgot!!!! due to Satan's influence. !! Saba  :) ;D

012.042
YUSUFALI: And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
PICKTHAL: And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.
SHAKIR: And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.
ASAD: And [thereupon Joseph] said unto the one of the two whom he considered saved: "Mention me unto thy lord [when thou art free]!" But Satan caused him to forget to mention [Joseph] to his lord, and so he remained in prison a few [more] years.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/42/default.htm



Offline optimist

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 06:44:45 AM »
Greetings Optimist.

Thank you for your questions.

1- Let us quote the verses:

6:118
You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
فَكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ إِن كُنتُم بِـٔايٰتِهِ مُؤمِنينَ

Mention God's Name Before You Eat.  Note how God did not say "before you Slaughter"!

6:119
Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

وَما لَكُم أَلّا تَأكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ وَقَد فَصَّلَ لَكُم ما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُم إِلّا مَا اضطُرِرتُم إِلَيهِ وَإِنَّ كَثيرًا لَيُضِلّونَ بِأَهوائِهِم بِغَيرِ عِلمٍ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعلَمُ بِالمُعتَد
ي

Yes I believe before we eat all food, meat and non-meat.

Wassalam,

What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat".  What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws.  Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ.   Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36).  If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name. 

Quote
2- Common sense will prevail here.Every meal whether it is a single item or a 5 course meal( if one is not being too greedy? ie glutton...) needs one single mention of GOD s name . Appreciation of what GOD is providing and a thank you to Him.

These are practical problems assuming your interpretation is correct.  Imagine we are together at a restaurant.  We order chicken first and as per the "instruction" in the verse we say bismilla (which makes the meat halaal according to you) and after we finish eating we order mutton.  According to your interpretation we have to say again bismilla here to make the meat halaal.

Quote
3- GOD is forgiver most Merciful when one forgets. Ask for forgiveness and move on.

Have you checked the the verse closely? The instruction in the verse is followed by a strong warning, “if you truly believe in His revelations”.  Therefore this is not a simple issue.   Again my questions:

Do you have a case that it is not necessary to say Bismilla before slaughter, but it is necessary to say Bismilla before we eat?

Quote
Yes I believe before we eat all food, meat and non-meat.

I can agree with you if you say mentioning Allah’s name is strongly desirable every time we eat or drink anything.   Allah, in His incredible mercy,  does not want to make it mandatory for the people to mention Allah’s name every time we eat or drink.  However, based on your interpretation, it would mean it is mandatory to say Bismilla before we eat meat, but not mandatory before we kill them.

The point must be simple.  Animals are Allah’s creatures and we are killing them to eat.  Allah has created them for the benefit of man.  Therefore it is mandatory to mention the name of Allah before slaughtering them to eat,  “if you truly believe in His revelations”.

Regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Armanaziz

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2014, 10:19:01 AM »
Quote

....
....

What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat".  What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws.  Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ.   Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36).  If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name. 

....


Dear Optimist.

Salamun Alaikum.

Please do not impose words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says. At best suggest this is how you understood it. Otherwise you may be risking a far greater sin.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Best regards,

Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Offline optimist

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2014, 10:48:00 AM »
Quote

....
....

What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat".  What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws.  Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ.   Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36).  If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name. 

....


Dear Optimist.

Salamun Alaikum.

Please do not impose words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says. At best suggest this is how you understood it. Otherwise you may be risking a far greater sin.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Best regards,

Arman
Wassalam,

With all respect,  I want to state that it is YOU who is imposing words and interpreting verses to support your views.    Can you give us a satisfactory reply about the strong warning contained in the verse “if you truly believe in His revelations”?  Does Allah make it mandatory here to mention Allah's name before eating??? Or before slaughtering?   Based on your explanation it is mandatory to mention before eating, but not mandatory before slaughtering.   Kindly clarify.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 10:53:28 AM »
Bro Sardar:

Salamun Alaikum.

Of course we have to pronounce Allah's name at the time of slaughtering and MUST NOT dedicate animals or other foods to anyone other than Allah. - I am not debating over this point.

The question is if I am unsure whether God's name was pronounced over a meat at the time of slaughter - which otherwise has been processed through "Legal Slaughter" (e.g. Kosher meat), is it OK for us remember Allah's name over it at the time of eating and eat it. There my conclusion is - it should be OK.

Best regards,
Arman
Salam!

IT SHOULD BE OK??????  Kindly apply logic!

If your interpretation is accepted, it should mean that it is compulsory to mention Allah's name before eating...not that it should be ok.   Because the verse clearly states to mention Allah's name "if we are true believers in Allah's laws". It is not something to be considered as OK. 

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 11:01:07 AM »
Salam,

I think in everything we do there is the danger beliving the result of our ability and work has other reasons then the will of the creator.
Sura 18
"(37) "But (I think) for my part that he is Allah, my Lord, and none shall I associate with my Lord. (38) "Why didst thou not, as thou wentest into thy garden, say: `Allah's Will (be done)! There is no power but with Allah!' If thou dost see me less than thee in wealth and sons (39) "It may be that my Lord will give me something better than "

If we slaughter or eat meat thinking this animal/meat is the result of my work than you associate others beside him.

 

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 11:43:19 AM »
but if a Hindu dedicate the Food to his God if it is the allmighty one thei do no harm to themself if we are offered the the Food we had to mention the name of our Lord nevertheless.

Offline optimist

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 04:08:59 PM »
Dear brother Arman,

Sorry for posting two to three posts addresing to you after your last post. 

You have accused me for imposing words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says.  Let us discuss the verse in question and see if I was "imposing" words.   

فَكُلُوا مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ بِآيَاتِهِ مُؤْمِنِينَ

فَكُلُوا So eat
مِمَّا of what..here we are requested to eat from.  The implication here is not the food in front of us.
ذُكِرَ (is) mentioned.  The usage of the word is passive here.  Here  it is very clear that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name.  And also the time referred is past, not connected to the time when food is in front of us. 
اسْمُ اللَّهِ (the) name of Allah
عَلَيْهِ on it.  what is referred here is not the prepared meat.

Also, I stated, the warning in the verse is very important to note; "if you truly believe in His messages".

I kinldy request brother Jospeh Islam to make a post clarifying the meaning and the possible implication of this verse 6:118.

Thanks, regards

Abdul Samad
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 04:39:30 PM »
Salaam Optimist,

Verses 6:118-121 are very clear straight forward. Do not eat anything that has not had Allah's name mentioned upon it. Allah is not taking about fruits and vegetables. He talking about the Animals that are slaughtered that He mentioned in different verses. It is the way it is.. ones not going to die if they don't eat meat, if one wants to, than go eat it after the requirement Allah commanded has been done. If one thinks they say or mention Gods name in anyway when they slaughter the animals with machines, your living in a cave.

People tend to use other verses to patch up for a meaning to other verses such as their food is lawful to you and your food is lawful to them to think that mentioning of Allah's name is mentioned or not . Allah doesn't contradict Himself.

That's my belief...

Offline Saba

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 05:11:35 PM »
ذُكِرَ (is) mentioned.  The usage of the word is passive here.  Here  it is very clear that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name.  And also the time referred is past, not connected to the time when food is in front of us. 

Salaam Optimist .. This is such a GOOD POINT ....

"Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications." (6.118)

I checked 'dhukira' is a PASSIVE PERFECT VERB

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=118

That is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned. Saba.  :)  8)

Offline good logic

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 09:40:55 PM »
Greetings Saba.

That is how I understand the verse about Joseph. You may understand it differently

The point that I wanted to make is to get into the habit of remembering to say " Bismi allah", "In shaa allah" and " Mashaa allah"...etc. A true believer has GOD on his/her mind 24/7. If he/she errs or forgets then:

" Remember your Lord when you forget" and ask for forgiveness.

Greetings Optimist.

Thank you for your views. You mentioned slaughter , none of the verses I commented about have the word " slaughter" in them!

Now I believe the following verses clarify what I understand about lawful food:

16:114
Therefore, you shall eat from God's provisions everything that is lawful and good, and be appreciative of God's blessings, if you do worship Him alone.

فَكُلوا مِمّا رَزَقَكُمُ اللَّهُ حَلٰلًا طَيِّبًا وَاشكُروا نِعمَتَ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُم إِيّاهُ تَعبُدونَ

Here is what is prohibited:

16:115
He only prohibits for you dead animals, blood, the meat of pigs,* and food which is dedicated to other than God. If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

إِنَّما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُمُ المَيتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحمَ الخِنزيرِ وَما أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ غَيرَ باغٍ وَلا عادٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ

16:116
You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.

وَلا تَقولوا لِما تَصِفُ أَلسِنَتُكُمُ الكَذِبَ هٰذا حَلٰلٌ وَهٰذا حَرامٌ لِتَفتَروا عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ إِنَّ الَّذينَ يَفتَرونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ لا يُفلِحونَ

Finally This verse makes it clear that all food is allowed except the four mentioned in the verse:

6:145
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except: (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat* of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

قُل لا أَجِدُ فى ما أوحِىَ إِلَىَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلىٰ طاعِمٍ يَطعَمُهُ إِلّا أَن يَكونَ مَيتَةً أَو دَمًا مَسفوحًا أَو لَحمَ خِنزيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجسٌ أَو فِسقًا أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ غَيرَ باغٍ وَلا عادٍ فَإِنَّ رَبَّكَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ


Are we saying lamb or beef from the supermarket, yes any supermarket, is dedicated to other than GOD? Is it "Halal" or "Haram"?

I understand that we are responsible for making our food " halal" not others?

God bless.

Peace.

Offline optimist

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2014, 05:18:22 PM »
ذُكِرَ (is) mentioned.  The usage of the word is passive here.  Here  it is very clear that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name.  And also the time referred is past, not connected to the time when food is in front of us. 

Salaam Optimist .. This is such a GOOD POINT ....

"Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications." (6.118)

I checked 'dhukira' is a PASSIVE PERFECT VERB

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=118

That is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned. Saba.  :)  8)

May Allah keep us focused on the Quran so that we can understand HIS verses correctly. 
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2014, 12:48:20 AM »
Here is an example in Qoran:

-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.

وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ


GOD said if one forgets , ask for forgiveness.

Salaam good logic, Where did you get the idea that prophet Joseph slipped up and put his trust in other than Allah???? As far as I can tell reading all the translations - it was one of the prisoners that forgot!!!! due to Satan's influence. !! Saba  :) ;D

012.042
YUSUFALI: And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
PICKTHAL: And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.
SHAKIR: And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.
ASAD: And [thereupon Joseph] said unto the one of the two whom he considered saved: "Mention me unto thy lord [when thou art free]!" But Satan caused him to forget to mention [Joseph] to his lord, and so he remained in prison a few [more] years.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/42/default.htm


Dear All,

This topic has been split and moved to another thread. Please see below.

Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1157

Thanks

Offline Armanaziz

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Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2014, 03:46:47 AM »
Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

I have not accused you of imposing words in between Allah's words. I just tried to warn you that the way you were choosing your words seemed to be taking you towards that direction. So let's just be a bit more careful about our word choices, that's all.

Let me humbly reply to your questions directed to me. I believe you want me to explain what I understand of the verse 6:118. My understanding of the meaning of the verse and the subsequent ones (6:118-121) is as follows:

Quote

6:118   So eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been remembered if you happen to be believers in His signs.

6:119   And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been remembered when certainly He explained to you what He has prohibited for you except that which you are compelled to. And indeed many have surely been deviated by their fancies without knowledge. Indeed your Master – He knows best of the transgressors.

6:120   And give-up the visible sin and the secret ones; indeed those who earn the sin, they will be repaid for what they used to acquire.

6:121   And do not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has not been remembered, and indeed it surely is willful disobedience, and indeed the devils inspire to their guardians so that they argue with you, but if you obey them – indeed you would surely be associating partners (with Allah).


[The above is my personal translation. Please do cross check with other translations - or best: the original Arabic text.]

I believe these verses - especially 6:119 refers back to previous verses like 2:173; 5:3-4 etc. where Allah has mentioned the specific items which have been made prohibited - and encourages us to eat good things - other than those prohibited items - after duely remembering Allah over the food.

Yes, "upon which the name of Allah has been rememberred" is in past tense. To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentoning Allah just before I eat.

And per verse 6:121 I do not eat any food if I am unsure if Allah's name has been remembered over it - UNTILL I remember Allah over it and thus complete my duty of due diligence. In fact a concious person (muttaqui) always remembers Allah's mercy over his food - even if forgets to explicitly mention it, in the back of his mind he always appreciates Allah for the food - UNLESS devil inspires him to dedicate the food to someone other than Allah, which would be willful disobedience (fisk).

Most of the time I do not know the people who slaughter the animals I eat - so it is impractical for me to ascertain whom they "really" remembered during slaughter even if someone certifies the food as Halal. Because, at the end of the day, those who are certifying are not my Master - Allah is. So is it OK for me to NOT remember Allah over a food certified Halal? I don't think so.  Per my humble understanding I am only accountable to my Master for whom I remember over my food. That's how I understand the verses of my Master and that's how I try to practice.

You are of course free to understand and act upon the verses the way they make most sense to you.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).