Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Airmen,

Keep it in cash... I don't trust banks, nor do I want others to know what I have.
I have taken interest and I mean a lot of it before, but every penny I've given as charity.

Man, I feel sorry for the 403B, pensions and 501K's... 

[Sardar Miyan]

In case you have extra money keep it in the bank without taking any interest as keeping at home is not safe.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Sardar,

One needs to fatawakkal alā l-lahi inna Allah yuḥibbu l-mutawakilīna

I have issues with our Govt or others knowing anything about my personal life whether it is finances or anything else unless "I" am willing to freely to share it.
Alhumduallah I have been blessed by Allah being protected and my property being protected.

[Sardar Miyan]

Yes you are right. There is proverb " Be as Romans when you are in Rome

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Sarder,

Amen to that!! If one haven't learned since 2008 that banks cant be trusted then you will never learn. There has been so much deregulation and fraud in the us economic sector it shocks me that more people are not more frightened about the economic climate we have today. Think about the people in Cyprus who had their deposits confiscated then ponder on your previous thought.
 

Even Gold and Silver, if the Govt knows you have cashed any in or have it they want a percentage of it. Heck No!! That is why you do not trust to keep it at a bank or claim it. I do not see it as being dishonest, it is rather none of their buisness.
 

[Armanaziz]

Salamun Alaikum.

Well If I have in cash $5,000 today that I need to take care for an orphan for next 10 years - and if your moral and intellectual judgement say that I leave the money in cash / current account to give him the exact nominal $5,000 after 10 years - then my friends I have to humbly beg to differ from you for my morality and judgement tells me to put it in a fixed deposit with a bank - and my reading of the Qur'an does not inspire me to do otherwise.

There is a story of "The Parable of the Talents" in Bible. You don't need to believe or follow bible - but no harm in studying and pondering over it.

Matthew 25:14-30
English Standard Version (ESV)

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[footnote:a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[footnote:b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[footnote:c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Footnotes:
a.Matthew 25:14 Greek bondservants; also verse 19
b.Matthew 25:15 A talent was a monetary unit worth about twenty years' wages for a laborer
c.Matthew 25:21 Greek bondservant; also verses 23, 26, 30

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Arman,

That is why you leave a written Will as Allah instructs us to do so.

Do I ponder over verses of the Bible? No.. I have no problem reading it and have... I only believe what is written in the Holy Quran.

You can do whatever you want... Allah will judge each one with what they do. As far as I am concerned I am not doing anything against Allahs commands in the Quran.  I am doing exactly as I should be doing.

[Armanaziz]

Dear Sister Abbsrayray:

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks for your kind words. Let me offer you a verse from Qur'an then.

6:152   “And do not approach the wealth of the orphans except in (the manner) which is nice until he reaches maturity. And give full measure and the weight with equality” - We do not burden any soul beyond its capacity. “And whenever you speak, then be just even if he happens to be a near relative. And fulfill the covenant of Allah. He has recommended these (obligations) of you in it so that you may rethink.”

[My personal translation with emphasis added - cross checking recommended.]

If you believe giving orphans their wealth in it's nominal value of 10-year back satisfies the requirement of giving them "full measure and weight with equality" - then perhaps my disagreement with you is not in how we understand Qur'an - but in how we understand economics.

May Allah guide us all to straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Aziz  Do believe in Bible verses or Quran ? Whatever the orphans money you got you have to return entire amount to them irrespective of is present value. Don't keep in the bank to get interest but for safety  & return entire amount. Don't bother for its devaluation due to inflation. Deal as per Quran no less no more. Please don't quote Bible if you are a Muslim.

[AbbsRay]

Salam Arman,

I think you have your understanding of the verses wrong when it comes to orphanage and their dues/returning their wealth.

I read what you wrote as an understanding you believe according to the Quran, each person is responsible to give an orphan a set amount or save something for them.
That's a great thing..but Allah is not asking us to do all that as you put it in a previous comment.

If you are caring for an orphan or one that you have their inheritance/Money that YES you have to return exactly what you were guarding for them. But it seems on previous comment you think everyone has to give an orphan a sum amount even if you are not caring for them or just any orphan randomly. 

I know what the verses say and mean...

again, I only believe what's in the Quran. Without doubt it's been preserved and nothing has changed in it. Also as Saba said, and I assume you already know this, Muslims are to only follow what's in Quran.

Sorry for repeating myself.. on cell phone

[Armanaziz]

Salamun Alaikum.

Brothers and sisters, thanks for your advices and concerns.

I believe in what was sent down to our rasool Muhammad (Sm) as well as what was sent down from before him - and I do not differentiate between Prophets. So, personally I love to ponder over Bible (What we have of Gospel/Torah with us today) especially if doing so helps me understand the Qur'an or the context of it. I thought, in general this forum encourages cross referencing between Qur'an and Bible and that's why I referred to Bible - the moderators can clarify.

That being said, I also believe Qur'an is complete and perfect guidance. If someone solely relies of Qur'an for his guidance and is honest in his effort - I think that is fair and reasonable. So, if you ask me to keep the bible out of the discussion - I am "cool" with that.

I rasied the hypothetical question of what to do with an orphan's money - just to illustrate how and "incorrect conception of RIBA" can lead to a moral dilemma. Seems like you do not have any moral dilemma there - you feel it is perfectly alright to give an orphan the nominal value of the money kept in custody long time back. However, my understanding of economics and finance makes me believe it would be grossly unfair to the orphan to do so. We can keep gold and silver as is for the orphans as they appreciate with time - but cash, no way. With that point accepted as a difference in understanding of finance, let's move away from this example and focus on the key question - what RIBA really is, especially in view of Qur'an.

I believe, the article by Dr. Shafaat which I referred earlier does quite a thorough job in analysing the relevant verses of Qur'an on Riba. He also went a long way to look deep into the Islamic Secondary Sources to investigate where and how the misconceptions peeped up. I, however, understand Riba even a bit more broadly than Dr. Safaat explained. To me any unfair "excess" gain in any business transaction is potentially riba and I have to save myself from it. (Thus for me RIBA may exist in various types of transactions for example - lending money with high interest to a person in financial difficulty who has little choice but to take the loan, or cheating an easygoing customer, or hoarding essential commodities to artificially boost price, or making monopoly profit by obstracting market competition, or trading shares on insider information etc.) The way our traditional scholars have interepreted RIBA to be synnonymous as interest (which it is not) appears to me as a "harmful oversimplification" that takes our eyes away from many other areas where riba can exist.

If you are really interested in exploring Islamic sources about Riba I would again recommend beginning with Dr. Safaat's article for you (link again below). But if you are already convinced that your understanding of the the term Riba is perfect and nothing is going to change your understanding, then it is best for me to take leave from here. As long as you are not engaged as custodians to look over my wealth for my minor children if my Master gives me an early death - I don't have any problem with leaving you with what you believe.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Reference: Article on RIBA by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat http://www.islamicperspectives.com/RibaIntro.htm

[optimist]

I rasied the hypothetical question of what to do with an orphan's money - just to illustrate how and "incorrect conception of RIBA" can lead to a moral dilemma. Seems like you do not have any moral dilemma there - you feel it is perfectly alright to give an orphan the nominal value of the money kept in custody long time back. However, my understanding of economics and finance makes me believe it would be grossly unfair to the orphan to do so. We can keep gold and silver as is for the orphans as they appreciate with time - but cash, no way. With that point accepted as a difference in understanding of finance, let's move away from this example and focus on the key question - what RIBA really is, especially in view of Qur'an.

Salaam!

Living in a human, unquranic system and trying to "fit" the Divine Laws of Allah into the prevailing ungodly system and then delude ourselves by saying that our system has become Quranic is of no use.

Money is a means of exchange. It does not produce anything by itself. This could be understood by an example. If one hundred-rupee coins are kept in a box and taken out even after a period of ten years, the amount will remain the same without any increase in it.  If you give the same one hundred rupees to someone on interest, and if it will bring some money along with it on its return, then in this way your money has produced more money. The money which was produced by money and not by labour is called by the Quran as “riba”. The Quran has very clearly stated about riba that it is an unlawful and forbidden serious crime, a crime which is regarded as a rebellion against the Islamic system.

Riba means ‘to take more’, no matter how small that amount may be.  This definition is clear and unequivocal.  Generally it is said amongst Muslims that compound interest is prohibited, whilst regular interest is permissible.  This is an erroneous belief, and they usually derive this view from the following verse.

O you who have conviction! Do not devour Riba, doubled and multiplied, but fear God, that you may really prosper (3:130)

However they have misinterpreted the meaning of the verse.  Iman Ragib has said that in this verse, the word moza’fatun is actually derived from the root zafun, ‘to reduce’, and not zefun, which means ‘to accumulate’. Therefore the real meaning of this verse should be written as;

O you who have convinction! Do not devour Riba, which (despite what you think) will diminish and reduce (in the long term); but fear God, that you may (really) prosper 3:130.

Hence the verse is really telling us that in the long term riba actually serves to reduce people’s prosperity (that is, it reduces the viability of an economy) and those who consume interest become increasingly unproductive, both in their abilities (out of lack of need to work) and in their capacity (as they become lazy).  In the long term it shrinks the economy as a whole and ultimately public wealth gets reduced drastically.  It is self evident fact that in capitalist systems those at the top become completely unproductive, and the overall national economy suffers. One section of the people, by becoming wrongful owner of others’ labour, becomes loser of the innate capability of action and gets devoid of human dutifulness, and the other section becomes poor and destitute being deprived of the fruits of its own labour; and due to this, in the beginning the fire of hatred and revenge against humanity gets kindled, and at last it annihilates (3:129-30).

It may be noted that the Holy Quran has not just said that riba is that what is taken from a needy person over and above the money given as loan. It has categorically stated: ‘You invest money with that of others’ with a purpose to get more than what was added is also riba, (30:34). The fundamental principal it has given is “Laisa lill insane e illa ms’a” (53:39)— compensation is for labour and not for capital; return for capital is riba, in whatever form it may be.

(Some of the comments above were taken from the work of G.A.Parwez)

Regards,
Optimist

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks for at last giving me some logic / reason which I could discuss.

I believe there is a fundamental difference between how you view the world and how I view it. Seems like you believe we live in an "ungodly" system and it is up to us to bring back God's rule on this planet. I fundamentally differ on this point. I believe I live in a system that God has created and allowed to be created for our benefit - and I am appreciative of the mercy of our Master. Some rulers or some systems in selected countries may be corrupt or wrongdoing - but the system which mankind has strived to create globally with almost universal acceptance - through thousands of years of trial and error - cannot be "ungodly". My understanding comes from verses like 2:210 and 3:83. For me - capitalism, market economy and democracy are blessings from my Master - the Master of the universe. It is up to us to refine these and make these better - not to shut our eyes and reject everything as ungodly.

I like to embrace you when you have admitted Riba means "to take more" and not Riba means "interest". The moment you understand that the terms "Riba" and Interest (Arabic: Faida) are not same - right then you allow me to ask 3 question - is then all form of interest to be considered riba? and is then riba can only exist in interest? And if these two concepts are exactly same, why are there two separate terms anyway?

Per my understanding of Qur'an, Riba means "to take more" than is due under fair terms of trade. A fair trade is based on the principle of Adl (equity) - where both the parties act out of satisfaction and zero compulsion and willingly agree on the terms. When one party "takes more" through some form of exploitation then the transaction moves from Adl to the direction of Julm and it becomes RIBA. On the other hand if one party voluntarily provides concession to the other party without any expectations of return from the counterpart - solely to please Allah - the transaction moves to the direction of Ihsan and in becomes SADAKAH. Thus RIBA is a "moral term" - opposite to sadakah - not an "economic term". The economics is left to men to figure out. Please revisit the verses of Qur'an dealing with the topic of Riba with the above understanding - in sha Allah you will see this concept perfectly fits in.

From the day I understood the above relationship, it became clear to me that the traditional understanding of riba - treating it synonymous as interest - is deeply flawed - just like the traditional concept of hadis or hijab or rajm are faulty. The Govt. and Regulators in every country strive to make sure that in financial transactions one party does not unfairly "take more" from the other party. In other words they make rules and procedures to stop riba from occurring in financial transactions including banking. In some cases their efforts fail and riba can still exist in some banking transaction, it is our duty to challenge/reject those - but ruling out the entire concept of return on capital or time value of money calling these as riba is, per my understanding, a gross overkill.

As Dr. Shafaat has shown, when our respected "Imams" concluded that all form of interest is RIBA - they were merely confirming the contemporary western wisdom - the conclusions by Greek philosophers who used to believe all form of interest to be evil, there can be no retun for time etc. However, when the prevailing mainstream wisdom advanced in favor of more sophisticated understanding of finance - we, "Muslims" refused to move ahead as by that time we have already accepted the "imams" as infallible.

The inferences that you or Mr. Parvez have tried to draw from 30:34, 53:39 seem, to me, a little bit far-fetched - influenced by Islamic Secondary Sources. Not sure if you got a chance to go through the article by Dr Shafaat that I quoted before. If yes, I would be glad to discuss with you any flaw in the logic of the article. But if you are convinced your understanding of riba is perfect and there is no room for re-examination - then let me take leave here. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

[optimist]

Wa'alaikumussalam brother Arman!

Thank you for your time and the post.   

There are some interesting points you have made.   But I need to study the issue in detail.  However let me state quickly two points of differences I have at the moment. 

1.  I agree with your understanding of "thousands of years of trial and error", however, according to me the trial and error is still undergoing.  It is sure that the humanity will ultimately reach the divine system through this trail and error one day (slow evolutionary pace), however long time it may take (through divine revelation the process can be accelerated).  The Quran confirms;

يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنْسَانُ إِنَّكَ كَادِحٌ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ كَدْحًا فَمُلَاقِيهِ
"O man! There is absolutely no doubt that by dint of your own experiments and observation, you will ultimately reach the Divine Order" (84:6)

The Quran further confirms this in 13:17 through a beautiful parable and the discussion ends with another beautiful statement, only what is beneficial for the humanity will ultimately prevail on earth.   

But, it does not mean that the world has already reached the divine order at the moment.

2.   I disagree with you definition of Riba to mean "to take more" than is due under fair terms of trade.  You seem to imply that whatever both the parties mutually agree without force or compulsion would be ok.  Your linking the issue with normal business transaction based on fair profit is not convincing.   I may post my views later in detail.  Insha Allah.

Thanks!

Regards
Optimist

[Armanaziz]

Salamun Alaikum.

Al hmdu lillah. I am feeling Brother Optimist and I have finally reached an point where we can evaluate each others arguments rationally and amicably. For me that's already a big achievement. I am perfectly aware that what I am proposing is quite novel concept and challanges the predispositions that we as a community have been holding for thousands of years. So, I am not even dreaming that the readers of my post will right away agree with me when they read my post.
And I am totally open to the idea that my understanding may also not be perfect either and I could learn from someone in this forum.

So let's think and analyze and debate. Hopefully if we put effort to understand the verses of Allah - our Master will guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman