Khamr

[Anwar]

Abbs,

I think you just want to justify what you already believe. I have given you the reason and the linguistic proof for what I have said. If you already have your mind made up, it cannot do anything for you.

Salam.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Anwar,

I do not have a need to Justify anything, My mind is absolutely made up because I would never dispute what is absolutely clear from my Creator. You believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to.

[Anwar]

AbbsRay,

I am not believing what I WANT to. It is not about me WANTING anything. What caused me to look into this was that it was not as clear as you say it is given the Qur'an's usage of sukaraa and sakar. If wine is forbidden outright by saying avoid khamr then what is the point of telling people not to pray when drunk or mentioning a more definitive word for alcoholic drink (sakar) and associating it with goodly provision? Hence, my research into the meanings of the word khamr. You have already seen, and disapproved of, my conclusions. You are correct that we all will come to our own conclusions in the end. And Allah will judge us on the day of judgement concerning how we differed.

Salaam.

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alykum brother Anwar.

I think I understand what you are saying when you mentioned

" If wine is forbidden outright by saying avoid khamr then what is the point of telling people not to pray when drunk or mentioning a more definitive word for alcoholic drink (sakar) and associating it with goodly provision? "

I think maybe your right, there wouldn't really be a point to say stay away from prayer in verse 4:43 because its obvious its already forbidden, so in other words what you mean is it could be suggesting that just don't be drunk when you approach prayer but drink after or before. I mean I can see the argument there. But now you would have to make sense of all the other verses of the word KHAMR and in my opinion there will always be confusions and debates and to many meanings being twisted.

I think when taking the word KHAMR AND SUKARA to mean the same thing, I would agree with you, but then again it wouldn't make sense to me many other places in the Quran.

I think whats a good idea if we consult the verse 4:43

Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.


The arabic word SUKARA in my opinion has very little to do with drinking physically. According to the verse above, the word SUKARA means a person not being his NORMAL SELF. This could be a angry person, a person who's confused, who's lost and has to much stress, thinking about life, business, money, relationships and not focused. And could also include being in a state of drunkenness. But not limited to that. I think what GOD is telling us is when we approach prayer be focused and leave the worldly views behind and understand what we are saying and asking before we start to pray.

Now KHAMR i believe does mean alcohol and intoxicants , or anything that is harmful and can cause damage or conceal the normal human being. Example, alcohol, drugs, intoxicants, natural or unnatural, we are told to stay away.

However from my opinion I try to take the best meaning from the Quran and to be honest with myself, and the Quran is consistent with its self. This is the only way I can see this topic make sense.

I based my opinion after reading brother Josephs article on intoxicants, which I found to be very helpful and well clarified with proof

http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/Intoxication.pdf

I hope this helps

Peace

[Anwar]

Peace,

The Quran tells us to seek help with patience and prayer 2:45. Why would it be a bad thing to pray when upset or angry? That is a good thing because the whole point of prayer is focusing one's mind on God and off of whatever worldly thing made you angry, sad or melancholic? Is it not the remembrance of God that the believers hearts find solace? 13:28

Moreover, sukaaraa is the plural of sukraan. It would be equal to makhaameer or makhmooroona, both of which are the plural of makhmoor. As it concerns khamr, just because khamr means drunkennes (As-sukrah) in one place, that does not mean that it has to mean that in all of the other places that it is mentioned. I mentioned above the many meanings that khamr has. Just like deen doesn't mean the same thing in every place in the Quran. The deen of maliki yawmi-d-deen is different from the deen in mukhliseena lahu deena in Suratul-Bayyinah, or the deen of the king of Egypt in 12:76 or the deen that will be returned to us on resurrection day in 24:25.

This occurs with many other words. Just because it means one thing in one place does not mean that it means that same thing in all places.

As far as what you believe khamr means, with all due respect it is not about what you believe. It is about the facts of the word. I have shown linguistically that it can only be referred to drinks that cause inebriation and not ALL intoxicants. Reading more into it is giving it a theological meaning or a fabricated meaning based on what you want it to mean.

All intoxicants can either be used in a dosage low enough to not cause inebriation or they can be used in cases of need. Alcoholic drinks, especially the wine of grapes and dates in particular are considered to be a good provision in the Quran. And they can be enjoyed in small doses so that we do not get inebriated. God tells us to stay away from inebriation and even gives us advice on what do when it is prayer time and we may be drunk. The Quran also tell us to that inebration is the work of the devil and is there to cause enmity between us and to keep us from prayer (seeing that God specifically says don't pray when drunk). So I don't know about you but this is pretty clear to me. Drink in small non-enebriating doses and if you happen to make a mistake and get drunk around prayer time don't pray, but don't let Satan sway you into getting inebriated so as to keep you from prayer and to cause strife between you and other believers.

Thanks for being open minded on this topic and willing to consider my points.

Salam.

[Hamzeh]

Salamun Alykum Anwar
Ramadan Mubarak

I agree with you that its not what I just think or believe about the Quran to be true without providing any supporting proof. When people are discussing topics about religion through a book they all claim to believe in from GOD then we are to go with the most honest and truthful opinion. we should be willing to change our beliefs of all aspects as time goes by with better and more convincing arguments.

I do understand what your saying. And I'm honestly trying to make sense out of it. At the end if thats what GOD has allowed no one has the right to change the proper meaning by manipulation. But what your saying with all due respect I find it hard to accept.

You are right its not a bad thing to be unset and angry, and I should of not used those examples. A better word would of been a "mind defogged". A mind that not able to focus on reality and prayer. A mind that can not be controlled or can cause someone to do something with out knowing. A mind that knows and understands all that is saying.

Now the part that doesn't make sense is, How can a person drink to a point where he can control how much he/she is drinking? Some drinks are stronger than others. They can be highly addictive. And some cannot be without it when it becomes a way of life. Sometimes a person ends up sleeping all day and all night. That means all the prayers have passed on. During the fasting month of Ramadan a person may of gotten drunk by mistake and it won't take much to get drunk by mistake and can cause a person to get sick and even eat when your not supposed to. All this because of something that started out to be lawful.

And who draws the line of when someone is drunk. How do you base or measure the point of someone being drunk. sometimes the lines between getting drunk or being sober is nothing more than half a cup. Some people might start praying and thinking there not drunk making a joke about it. And start laughing and being dissy and all that.

Would it not be more logical to say that if GOD is asking someone to stay away from being drunk or inebriation then to shun it or stay away from it from the first instance. not even to engage on the first sip.

Medication in cases of need is something that helps a person go from a unnatural state to a better more focused state. These medications cannot be classed as khamr. Those are different cases. I mean a believer in need of food and is hungry is able to eat the flesh of swine or whatever is forbidden in those case.

Even medication just because its lawful in the land may not be appropriate to GOD. Some may cause people to be addicted and never the same. And always dependant on it and when they go off the medication they end up using drugs. I think Khamr would be more properly defined as a substance that conceals the mind. 

Also we should try to read these verses and imagine that we were at the time of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and his nation. Before the revelation came to them it could of been a normal situation where people were drinking alcohol and maybe consuming other substances that make the mind defogged. Like getting high as we say now or getting drunk. As we know the Quran was revealed to them in portions and not as a whole. Maybe it was verse 4:43 that came to them first. And they were asked not to approach prayer while they were in a state of inebriation. And then verse 5:90 was revealed to them that khamr was forbidden completely. And asked those who accepted the Quran and became believers to avoid it.

you stated in your first comment on this topic

"I find it somewhat significant that khamr in 5:90 is described as an 3amal or an action, i.e. 'min 3amali-sh-shaytaan.' 2:25 also implies that the things that we will be given in paradise will be similar to the things that we have been given on earth."

I think this verse is suggesting that the action of making any type of intoxicants is from the actions of the shaytaan. And the gambling.
Maybe GOD is even forbidding the making of these substances altogether. And even on a wider scale. If you look at the world we live in. There is much profit in the industries of alcohol or intoxicants and gambling. Yet this verse comes to mind

2:219
Yusuf Ali
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-


Thats my opinion


Peace