Does each people judge by what they have been given?

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Dear Br. Joseph Islam

I have read your article "People of the Book" and found that you have pointed out that the Quran tells the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that to let the Jews and the Christians to judge by what they are given. (5:42-48)

Just to understand and referring back to the original text in Arabic. in verse 5:44 translations say:

Yusuf Ali
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light.

is the"was" an accurate translation as I know "feeha"  means "in it" or "therein" and I can't find "was" in the Arabic.

I noticed the translation you used in the article also says "was"

005.044
It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light.

Now what I'm trying to get it is that some people refer to this as a past tense. Or its somewhat sarcasm when verse 5:43 is explained. That they come to the Prophet for judgement because they dont have there books.

I honestly hate to waste your time and over mention something. I read your posts about the Torah and all the subcategories that have to do with it. I myself honestly feel that the verses are clear and agree with your views on them.

Its really a shocking news to some when they hear this. but I was really nervous today by how people react when you tell them you believe this. I feel like I'm the one going against the Quran. so its as if I just need to confirm. Because I feel like I'm denying that the Quran came to all humanity. And not everyone should follow the laws ordained in it.

Some argue that because the Torah was changed then God sent the Injeel. And then the Injeel was changed then thats the reason for the Quran. And God has protected it. And the justifications for this is that the Quran confirms that people tampered and changed the Torah and Bible.

However I incline to your views of the interpretations is because I do believe that just because people don't use what was given to them doesn't mean that they are no longer available by some others. And because of verses (5:42-48)

Does not the God mention somewhere in the Quran that his words are never lost or changed? I tried to search before but maybe I could be mistaken.

The only thing that I question out of good faith is verse 7:157 and 7:158. It seems like it is asking the Jews and Christians to follow Prophet Muhammad with the light(Quran) which was sent to him.

7:157.....(part)and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
7:158 Say: "O men(mankind)! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah...

Also isn't studying another book for religious guidance and law rebuked by the Quran, or is that just to the people or nation of the Prophet?

68:36-38
What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?
Or do you have a scripture in which you learn
That indeed for you is whatever you choose?



The above verse is probably not relating to previous nations with scriptures as they did have scriptures but the rebuttal to that would be they no longer have them?



Also I am inclined to believe that the Quran is reminding the Children of Israel to fulfil the covenant they had. 2:40

I do recall that they were told to hold fast to their Book. 2:63. would that meant forever?

Also 2:44 "Do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the Scripture? Then will you not reason?"

If the above verse was a present tense in the time of the prophet Muhammad to the Jews then one is inclined to think that amongst the Jews are reciting the Torah and was available in a form God has deemed it allowable for guidance.

I'm just looking for truth Insha'Allah. I don't want it my way. I feel this is a serious topic.

The way I see it, there is 2 ways:

1. the Jews and Christians not follow the Quranic laws but to believe in that the Quran is the word of God and to follow the scriptures that came to them.
2. to believe that the Quranic law is for all.

In the event that (1) is wrong, then the consequence of believing in this way seems worse than than (2)



And thats why I would like to be certain and its not just a small matter to me. Because if the case of number (1) is true and absolute, we also have no say in the matter and this is what God has ordained. And this is what we should be preaching as well.

I have taken up much of your time lately with my questions in the past couple days. And I honestly only intend for the best and the truth and not to exhaust you but to help you(something which I might not be able to do but Insha'Allah). Only reply if you find it a topic that will benefit others and not only myself as there is other important things going on.

Peace be upon you

[Seraphina]

I have taken up much of your time lately with my questions in the past couple days. And I honestly only intend for the best and the truth and not to exhaust you but to help you(something which I might not be able to do but Insha'Allah). Only reply if you find it a topic that will benefit others and not only myself as there is other important things going on.

Peace be upon you

Peace be with you dear brother Hamzeh (not "upon you" - that's the salavat for prophets )
I feel the same way as you in that quote. I have also taken much time from brother Joseph lately, with many questions and discussions, and since we're not the only ones that need him, we show some patience until he is free and comfortable enough to answer us back in the meantime, sorry for 'interfering' in this post, since you were directed towards brother Joseph, but I thought one humble opinion more wouldn't hurt
First of all, I always try to apply brother Joseph's advice to take the verses within the context and to take all the verses that treat the matter, not to isolate just one (or two) of them. In surah Al Maideh, verse 44 becomes clearer if you see the verses 42 and 43 that also talk about jews of Madinah:
"[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."  As we know, the constitution of Madinah allowed all religious groups to follow their religion and their laws, for as long as they don't disturb public order and harmony. Jews were not exception .  But it was customary that almost all citizens used to come to prophet to ask his advice if they had any dispute, so God orders our prophet to judge between them with justice. Arguably, prophet would have used the laws of Allah(Quran) to judge any dispute. But jews often disagreed with his decisions.  The following verse 43 informs us that since the verdicts from Quran are being disputed, then he should judge between them from their own law, the Torah: "But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgment of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.". Then verse 44 clarifies that judging them with Torah doesn't mean that prophet was abandoning the laws of Allah: "Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers."
The moment a person converts to Islam, Quran is his religious law. Quran is the law that the believers will follow up until the Judgment Day. So, the jews and christians are required to accept Muhammad as a prophet (7:157-158). But the jews of Madinah had accepted our prophet as the leader/judge of Madinah, but not as a prophet of God, which means they were not muslims yet. So judging them with their own laws was in perfect harmony with the Quran (there is no compulsion on religion) and with the constitution of Madinah, that guaranteed religious freedom, peace harmony for all citizens of Madinah regardless of their beliefs. 
Hope I was of help inshallah,
Your sister Seraphina

[Hamzeh]

Peace be with you too Dear sister Seraphina

Of course thank you very much for your input and your always welcome to give your opinion. May God bless you

Now don't you think that the religion of Moses and Jesus was Islam. Obviously it was . What would be the difference in religion if all three Books were used. The Books of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad preached. It was just the laws and ways that were different. After reading one of Josephs articles and I agree with what he said that this was Gods will to have more than one way and law. see verse below

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Even if the Jews or the Christians always followed there law and path according to Gods Books that was revealed to them. Some how I think that the Quran would still be destined to be revealed to Muhammad no later no earlier.

Now I just want to list as many verses as I can that makes me think that:

1. The Torah and Bible seem to be deemed fit for guidance and law to there respective communities at the time of the prophet Muhammad.
2. That they are never told to follow the law of the Quran but to go back to their Law and start using it( The only verse that I can think of that brings tension to this concept is 7:157-158)
3. And believers are told to believe in the Torah and Bible( I somehow feel that God wants the Believers of the Quran to also believe that the Torah and Bible are still fit for guidance. And the truth and judgement from God are still available in them)

The list starts below and this is only what I can think of in little time

2:4-5 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

2:40-41 O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2:44 Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand? (I'm assuming the scripture in that sentence above is referring to the Torah and was told to the children of Israel at the time of the prophet Muhammad.)

2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2:63 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."

2:89 And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith. (side note: can we be doing the same thing?)

2:91 When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?" (other translations seem to state; "while it is the truth confirming that which is with them")

2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (seems to me that God is saying NONE of his verses or revelations are abrogated or cause to be forgotten, but He brings better or similar)

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

above is just from Surah Al Bakarah

now going back to Surah Maida 5

5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
( Seraphina it seems like to me that its awkward a persons(from the Jews) is coming to seek the truth and get judgement from prophet Muhammad when they have there own Book and law and they rejected theirs before. Why would you think they would accept the law of the Quran. For that instance God tells us they are not really people of Faith.)

5:46-47 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (It seems like they are asked to Judge using only what God has revealed from the Injeel(Gospel) and not all the sayings of the Gospel)

5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."


Does the Quran mention about people of the Book who written false information and took it as a Law? it seems yes

2:59 But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.

2:78-79 And among them are unlettered(ummiyuuna) ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming. So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.(ummiyuuna are possibly the ones who don't know the book of Moses and its they who possibly changed the words and written scriptures with their own hands and said this is from God. To make a profit.)

Also doesn't it make sense that the the believers( muslims ) are also able to eat from each others food, and marry from each other. If God did not recognize their ways any more then why allow all this. And a Qibla to each group


To also make something clear is that "yes" I do believe they should recognize the Quran as the word of God and the prophet Muhammad as a prophet. And not to disbelieve in this. Same way we are to them.

Now after saying this, either I'm way off and I am understanding everything wrong. Or a whole bunch of people are wrong. May GOD bless us all Insha'Allah

To sum everything up I still ask the same question pretty much as my first post. Do we tell Jews and Christians judge by what God has given to them, or is there something wrong with my thinking? And i'm missing important information?

Im sorry for the lengthy post


Peace be with you 

[Seraphina]

May peace and God's blessings be with you too, dear brother Hamzeh,
To be honest, I'm having a tough day today and forgive me if you feel my answer doesn't match your posts. Maybe I should've answered later, but perhaps I won't be able, so here's a quick reply with some clarifying points from brother Joseph on People of the Book:

*The Quran asks the People of the Book to recognise that what has come to the final prophet is the truth which is confirming the truth which is also with them.
*God's message of truth has always been the same. Believe in One God of the Universe, believe in the unseen hereafter, associate no partners with God and to do righteous deeds.
*Verses dealing with fighting Christians and Jews deal with a specific people who broke treaties, committed evil etc. They cannot be applied to all Christians and Jews for all times.
*Non-Muslims are not always Kaafir (Disbelievers) and the Quran does not refer to Jews and Christians as disbelievers but as 'Ahl-e-Kitab' (People of the Book). Even idolaters are not necessarily 'Kaffirs'.
*Jews and Christians can be Muslims.
*There are also 'believers' amongst the People of the Book.
*The Quran does not demand the Jews and Christians to 'convert' or abandon their laws. Until the People of the Book are convinced of the veracity of the message of the Quran, the people of the Book must follow the laws of their own scriptures in truth as Muslims and God will judge them equitably. (Bolds and emphasises mine)
Your sister hopes she makes more sense now
God bless you!
(Source: brother Joseph's article "People of the book")

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Hamzeh and sister Seraphina,

Thank you both for your posts and comments.

Brother Hamzeh - You share:

"...The only verse that I can think of that brings tension to this concept is 7:157-158..."

Before I comment further, please find below a section in the article [1] below, where I have discussed these verses. Please let me know if you find the explanation addressing any tension that you may have perceived.

Regards,
Joseph

(20)    FOLLOWING THE FINAL MESSENGER FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
 
007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

At no point does the verse above state that those that follow the previous scriptures should abandon the judgment or laws given by their own scriptures. The verse itself expounds the context. The Prophet clearly is being informed as one who forbids them of what is wrong or disliked (Arabic: munkar) and makes lawful for them that which is right. This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.
 
The burdens and fetters could thus possibly be a reference to the self-imposed extra Biblical traditions, incorrect practices or difficulties of the People of the Book, prevalent with those in the vicinity of the Prophet. Those that followed the messenger, believed him, honoured him and listened to his advice and calling would have had these difficulties removed.

Furthermore, all prophets of the past undertook a covenant with their communities that if a messenger were to come within their midst, they would be expected to render him aid and assistance. This would be no different for the monotheists of the People of the Book that came into contact with the ministry of the Arabian Prophet (Muhammad). They would be expected to do the same.
 
Any messenger would confirm the existing scriptures (despite the differences in law 5:48) and this is what the Quran repeatedly does.  Therefore, verse 7:157 can also be argued to serve as a reminder to the previous monotheistic communities of the covenant already taken with them as a people (3:81).
 
003.081
"And when God took a covenant* the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger (Arabic: rasulun) comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must help (Arabic: walatansurunnahu) him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My Covenant in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you"
 
* Please see related article [2] below.
 
007.158
“Say: "O mankind! I am sent to you all (Arabic: Jami'an), as the Messenger of God, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no God but He: it is He That gives both life and death. So believe in God and His Messenger, the gentile Prophet, who believes in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."
 

REFERENCES:

[1] PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (JEWS & CHRISTIANS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
[2] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Brother Joseph Islam

Its strange how I read your article as though it was a long time ago but I kept somethings in mind and I missed that part. As I went over it again today I realized I have understood it better this time Alhamdulila.

One question, you state:

"The Quran does not demand the Jews and Christians to 'convert' or abandon their laws. Until the People of the Book are convinced of the veracity of the message of the Quran, the people of the Book must follow the laws of their own scriptures in truth as Muslims and God will judge them equitably."

But would that not go against the following: Is the verses below asking them to use their scriptures they are given or any scripture from God or by choice any scripture?

005:044
and sell not my verses (Arabic: Ayati) for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers (Arabic: Kaffiruna) .
005:045
But who forgoes it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Who  judges NOT by that which God has revealed: such are wrong-doers. (Arabic: Zalimuna) "

005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

Seems like the above verse God is asking to Judge by the Gospel for the people of the Gospel.

Would the statement "IF ANY FAIL TO JUDGE BY WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED..." is that any scripture of the 3. Torah, Bible, or Quran?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Hamzeh,

Wa alaikum assalam

Without intending to become overly complex in providing you with a humble response, it should be noted, that the main thrust of theses verses that you share is to emphasise that there was an expectation for the Christian and Jews at the time of the Prophetic ministry, to follow their Scriptures sent by God with sincerity, faithfulness and in truth.

They were expected to be judged by the laws in these Scriptures.  After all, all such Divinely inspired teachings are ultimately from Him.

However, in my humble opinion, it can be safely posited that from a Quran's perspective at least, there is no ‘explicit’ requirement for those of the people of the Book that follow their revelations correctly and in truth, to simply abandon them. For example, the Jews are not expected to abandon their laws, such as keeping the Sabbath or any other religious observances. However, they are expected to accept the veracity of the Quran as a revelation from God once the truth of it has been completely manifested to them. This remains key.

Whether today's Jews and Christians with their numerous sects are following their Books justly, or in truth, is a totally different matter and would require a very detailed discussion which is outside the scope of this response.

For example, was it ever the intention of the Gospels to remove Mosaic laws such as the keeping of the Sabbath or abstinence from consuming swine flesh or was its intention to keep to the laws strictly? (5:46) What are the justifications given by certain Christians to abandon those laws and are such justifications correct / cogent? (etc)

The Quran also challenges errant theologies, but at the same stroke refers the People of the Book back to their Books. This somewhat  implies that these errant theologies (such as the alleged relationship of prophet Jesus and God) are not necessarily sourced / supported by these Scriptures and are ‘arguably’ errant beliefs which are read into the scriptures without warrant.

As you can see, this will become a very complicated matter requiring detailed scrutiny and discussion. However, the emphasis to keep to their scriptures in truth remains imperative, regardless.

As far as your question regarding ‘conversion’ is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference.

I hope that clarifies, God willing
Joseph

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alykum Br. Joseph

I thank you very much for your informative response. I agree with your views.

Peace

[Donald Hysa]

How could Quran have been sent for all mankind  since a lot of people died before Quran was revealed?

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Donald ......it means that it sent as a guidance for those of mankind that came after the Quran was revealed.....i think you are placing unnecessary emphasis on 'all'. I think it is common sense to understand it that way.

[Donald Hysa]

Joseph Islam teaches here that 90% of muslims are  wrong so common sense is not so common. No matter how you are suppoused to understand it this is a false statment.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Donald....I hope you are not trolling or being intentionally slanderous.......where does brother joseph teach that 90% of muslims are wrong??? ...

[Donald Hysa]

I am not trolling  I read it in an article I am sorry I can't remember where

[Duster]

Well then....if you can't back it up with evidence...why say so and so said this ..simply on what you think someone has said....can you please provide evidence in future or i fear you will be seen as trolling....

[Seraphina]

Selam alaikum,
Reading the last posts I am a bit frustrated and a bit sad. Brother Donald, why are you so harsh? Maybe you're not aware of this, but you sound very severe in your posts. Be careful when you talk about brother Joseph, for many reasons, but first of all, because you're wrong in what you state about him. Muslims in general had all the answers in their buffet, in a book they keep covered in fine cloth. That book was meant to be our religious guidance and our main source of laws. Everything else outside this book, every attempt to interpret a verse of this book is simply an opinion or an hypothesis, which comes from a fallible source - human mind. This is what brother Joseph is talking about: respect the opinions of scholars and study the Quran for yourself, but be aware that their opinions and your conclusions can't equal the Quran, especially if the Quran contradicts that opinion/conclusion. Many muslims are aware of this, I guarantee you (it's more common sense that you think), but they were meant to believe that onlly scholars or mullahs can understand the Quran, only they can reach conclusions, and only what they say has to be applied. Even if it sounds unquranic, nevermind, they are more learned than you, they know what they're doing, so you do as they say. Not just me, but I guess most of members of this forum at first had difficulties to accept that Bukhari≠Muhammad and Hadith≠Quran. Many muslims have the 'common sense' I'm talking about, but they have difficulties to denounce it, because they can be persecuted or killed.
I have read probably 99% of brother Joseph's articles, and nowhere does he make such statements that 'x is wrong' or 'y is right'. He simply analyses popular beliefs and practices and searches for a Quranic base of them. If there's no Quranic base, then it can't be something our prophet preached, or God declared. Simple as that. It's not brother Joseph that says this, it's Al Furqan that says it.
Besides, are you sure you have known God enough to question his justice and mercy, and the reasons he has to punish or reward someone? Are you sure you have known God (his feelings, his personality, etc) good enough to doubt his justice and mercy? Because i think you didn't. As an albanian saying goes "you know 1 thing bout you don't know 10 others".
Selam.