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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 03:15:16 AM »
LINK TO ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=279

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 17:00 (2 hours, 12 minutes ago) @ Razi


Dear brother Razi,

Salamun Alaikum.

With respect, I am not interested in personalities, their academic achievements nor do I overtly revere anyone. Nobody is beyond criticism, myself included. I judge only on merit.

You said:

"...Just resembles the comment of Javed Ghamidi who stated that Allama Parvez knowledge and understanding of Arabic was poor".

I only criticise what is put in front of me if it warrants it. If brother Javed Ghamidi's argument is not agreeable to me, I will raise it in the form of academic criticism. Where I concur, I will express my agreement.

For example, in a recent thread I said:

However, I note the translation from G. Parwez does use the word prayer and remains very consistent with the Quranic Arabic as opposed to the second rendition that you have provided. Why is there such a dichotomy between the two?

I find G.Parwez's rendition of this verse very agreeable with the Quranic text. Anyone comparing the two translations will note major differences. For example, where is the Arabic "wa-ldhikru-lahi akbaru" in the second rendition which G. Parwez correctly translates as "and remembrance of Allah is the greatest".

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=243

I simply found one rendition better than the other. I wasn't concerned who gave it, I was more interested in what it said.

Here are the two renditions which were presented to me and I commented on. Maybe you can elaborate.

ALLAMA PARWEZ
29:45. Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that you do.

QXP:
29:45 (O Prophet!) convey to people all that is revealed to you of the Book, and establish the Divine System. For, certainly, establishment of the Divine System will shut off lewdness, stinginess, and behavior contrary to the Permanent Values. This is so, because God's law is the Greatest law that can give you eminence. And God knows whatever you people contrive on your own. [21:10, 21:24, 23:70, 43:43-44, 70:21-27. Fahasha includes miserliness, and Munkar is all behavior that goes against Permanent Values given in the Qur'an]
As Salawat = Divine System

Peace to you.

Joseph.

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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 07:09:00 AM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p291

Dear Brother Fadil,

Salamun Alaikum.

Thank you for your mathematical equation. It was very informative.

If you care to see the approach to my work you will note that I am highly critical of 'ancestral traditions'. My work is replete with criticisms against 'traditional thinking' and addressing misconceptions of Muslim thought.

I am not like others who reject a Quranic directive due to their personal irreconcilable difficulties they may have with the Quranic narratives. A tradition is not incorrect just because it is a tradition. It is only incorrect if it is rebuked by the Quran. I find clear support for the practice of prayer not only directly from the Arabic but also from an analysis of the 'bigger picture'.

Also, I have not made any fantastic claims. I have only expressed my ability to directly access the Arabic Quran. Furthermore, irrespective of my background, I have never claimed any 'titles' unlike others that constantly advertise them.

Joseph.

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:59 AM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p303

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 14, 2011, 15:53 (50 minutes ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Dear brother Quasim,

Salamun alaikum.

I feel you have aptly captured and summarised the various positions taken by the contributors. You have also asked some pertinent questions.

I have often felt in some discussions that 'prayer', is at times generally understood in terms of 'asking' God for something when it also has the inherency of 'worshipping' where one praises and thanks their Lord for His bounties.

034:013 (part)
"...Give thanks, O House of David! Few of My bondmen are thankful'

This underscores the difference between 'salaat' as a form of 'formal worship / prayer', 'dua' as a form of 'asking' and 'dhikr' as a form of 'remembrance'.

However, responding to a very important question you asked:

"If Salaat only means prayer, then praying to Allah who is nearer to us than our Vena Cava (50:16), whose Divine Energy (Rooh) is part of each person's constitution of which we understand very little (17:85), Who is with us everywhere (58:7), and He knows what we conceal and what we reveal (2:77) exposes what to Him? Nothing that He is not already aware of"

I think this question accesses the core of understanding the relationship between 'Complete Divine knowledge' and 'human volition'.

For example, we note a dialogue between Prophet Moses and God in verse 20:17. God asks Prophet Moses with regards his staff "wa ma til'ka biyaminika ya-musa?'. This would approximately translate as "And what is that in your right hand O Moses?".

Now was God not aware of what was in Prophet Moses's right hand? or that it was a staff? or that it was possibly constructed from an off-shoot of a strong branch of a tree or that he even possibly found it somewhere? Was God not aware of any of these possibilities? It is in the response given that we note that Prophet Moses knew exactly what was being asked of him which were his 'choices'.

God also knew his choices but it was for Prophet Moses to advance them which introduces the concept of 'answerability'. "He said: This is my staff / rod (asaya) I lean upon it, and with which I bring down leaves / beat down fodder for my sheep, and wherein I find other uses" (20:18)

In the same way, God knows everything and as you say He is 'nearer to us than our Vena Cava (50:16)' yet we remain responsible for our 'choices' and our 'actions'. Knowledge of what we may ask or appreciate is already with Him, yet we are responsible for these choices.

Our prayer, what we ask, how we praise and acknowledge was known to our Lord before He created mankind. Many of us locate God in our understanding of space and time. He is simply not subject to His creation.I have already advanced this theological understanding which can be noted in this thread.

This is even a concept that I feel is supported in the previous scriptures. Before the Lord's prayer is mentioned in Matthew 6:9 ff, we note the statement "...for your father knows what you need before you ask him" (Matt 6:8-). But this did not undermine the need for prayer.

He didn't force our choices, we made our choices. He just knew of them and took account of them.

It is absolutely clear from the Quran in my mind that God does respond to prayer.

Response to Zakariyya's prayer in 19:7, God's response to a women that pleaded with the Prophet about her husband (58:1), God's response to Moses's prayer in 20:36 are all explicit statements.

It is from this point that we need to reconcile our understanding and concept of the Universe and not, with respect, attempt to change the scripture which I feel some do and which I have already publicly asserted.

Thanks for your well positioned and respectful post.

Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2011, 06:16:23 AM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p337

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Friday, December 02, 2011, 19:26 (1 day, 2 hours, 49 min. ago) @ fadhly


Yes, clearly. I note your acknowledgement of the perfect verb but find your conclusion non-sequitur.

Indeed the verse (5:6) says 'stood up for prayer' (action complete], but you simply cannot tear a verb (perfect of imperfect) out of its context and interpret the verb in isolation. The 'fa' in 'fa-ighsilu' (imperfect) clearly denotes something that then results after the 'qumtum ila salati'.

Therefore the 'qumtum ila salati' needs to be understood in the overall context of the sentence which means when you have 'stood up for prayer'. It doesn't mean that you have prayed!

Rather, it means when you have stood up with the intention of prayer or when you actually get up to do the prayer [perfect verb - action complete], then ... (carry out the ablution process).

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2011, 06:18:58 AM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p348

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Saturday, December 03, 2011, 18:45 (3 hours, 31 minutes ago) @ Joseph Islam


Salamun Alaikum,

Please note a typo and a correction on my post noted after a re-read with a slight addition.

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Joseph.

(1)

The following:

"but you simply cannot tear a verb (perfect of imperfect)"

Should read:

"but you simply cannot tear a verb (perfect or imperfect)"


(2)

The following:

"The 'fa' in 'fa-ighsilu' (imperfect) clearly denotes something that then results after the 'qumtum ila salati'"

Should read:

"The 'fa' in 'fa-ighsilu' clearly denotes something that then results after the 'qumtum ila salati'" - fa = result particle or an answer to a condition usually translated as 'then', 'and' or 'so' (alfa waq'aat fi jawaab ashrat). ['ighsilu' = imperative verb - an instruction or a command etc]


Regards  :)

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2011, 03:33:20 PM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p501

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Friday, December 30, 2011, 22:46 (8 hours, 45 minutes ago) @ fadhly

Dear Brother Fadhly,

Salamun Alaikum

With respect, your post has once again rather confused me in regards to what overarching point you are endeavouring to make with your contentions.

So when God says in verse 20:14, worship / serve me (faubud'ni) and establish the salat for MY remembrance (l-dkhiri), are you really suggesting that this does not mean that the purpose of salaat is not to remember God alone?

My brother, by splitting up the words into its syntactics is not going to change the meaning within the context.

With respect, to assert that 'dhikree' in 20:14 is a noun and not a verb is incorrect. In fact, dhikree in 20:14 is known as a verbal noun which is quite different from saying something is a noun per se. The verbal noun clearly conveys the idea of a verb action. It can be used both adverbially and adjectively. Good translators take extra care dealing with verbal nouns when advancing the best meaning. It is not my purpose to discuss Arabic grammar here which is an area that can be scrutinised by any keen student of Arabic for themselves.

I am not quite sure that I have once again grasped the basis of your contention but please do enlighten me as to what else is the purpose of the Arabic l'dhikri in context in this verse?

With regards 6:162 and with respect, I absolutely cannot see your point. The verse clearly says that salaat is for God (lillahi)

Regards,
Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell