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Offline Joseph Islam

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Salaat = Follow the Quran
« on: November 07, 2011, 09:15:18 PM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p182

by Joseph Islam, UK, Tuesday, November 01, 2011, 20:50 (6 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed, uk


To Jawaid:

You quote:

If Salat is not following the Quran, then it is certainly not doing rituals five times a day either! No 'bird'I know performs rituals as a means of 'Salat'to Allah. If they are engaged in following what they have been programmed to do then it is up to us to find out what is our best programming. This is by following the teachings, the principles, the values etc of the Quran, which means when I carry them out, I am performing my Salat. Salat is established collectively by implementing a Quranic social order; society then behaves in a harmonious manner, beneficial to all.

First of all there is no 'as they fly in columns' in the Quran in verse 24:41. There is also nothing to suggest in your translation that you have included this as an insertion.

With respect, you have missed the point of the verse.

All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.

017.044
'The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!'

You say:

'Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions'

What the Quran does not provide is pedantic 'form' and 'utterance' (what to say in your prayers). The Quran has no intention to prescribe this. All various other aspects of prayer have been provided by the Quran. (direction, need for wudu, allusion of times etc).


The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the 'believers' (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
Garments (7:31)
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu'mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
The tone of prayer (17:110)
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)


The Quran has no intentions to define rakats, where you should tie your hands, what you should say in prayer etc. The purpose is communion with God. Communion is a personal spiritual experience and exercise. You misunderstand lack of form and utterance in the Quran as an absence of prayer altogether, This is untenable in light of the scripture.

You mention the narratives with respect to Shoaib (pbuh). You quote a rendering of a verse 11:87 as , and I quote:


11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."

First what Arabic word are you translating as 'economy'? The word used by the Quran is 'amwalina' which refers to their wealth (property, assets etc). The use of 'economy' implies resources at a regional or society level.

Secondly, the argument is not against 'prayer'. The argument is against praying to what their forefathers used to worship. (natrula ma ya'badu abauna).

It seems you may have difficulty with finding the details for the 'traditional prayers' in terms of form and utterance in the Quran and therefore assert that there is no 'prayer' in the conventional sense altogether. Why do you not consider the possibility that there is no intention by the Quran to give you a pedantic form or content (utterance)? There is also no directive in the Quran for you to pray in Arabic, or assign specific rakats (albeit it may make logistical sense in a congregation). However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 09:18:10 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p220

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Friday, November 04, 2011, 11:48 (3 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed

Jawaid,

Peace.

Looking at your response to sister Saba, it seems you are basing your arguments on the verse renditions that you yourself are providing.

I read and study directly from the Arabic. I do not recognise the following highlighted areas in the English rendition that you have provided.

29:45 (There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do.

I put to you a simple question. How can one discuss anything with a view to posit a possible alternative, more cogent argument when you are basing your views on verse renditions which do not exist in the Arabic?

How can those readers who rely on the rendition you have provided tell the difference between what is 'translated' and what is 'interpolated' into the text?

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 09:20:51 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p243

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 07, 2011, 09:09 (4 hours, 9 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed


Jawaid,

Peace.

You say:

"Most people know that direct word for word translations of the Quran would render it incomprehensible. What you have is the translators understanding of the verses, in context and in accordance with other verses that have the same words. It is simply a rendition of the Quran based on their knowledge"

The only way we can truly remain consistent with an ancient text is to translate the words as closely as possible and not 'interpolate' theological positions into it.

Tacitly inserting 'interpolations' into a text only makes the matter worse. Also, it misleads readers who do not know Arabic.

Please provide me evidence from any notable classical text or any Bedouin Arab in the desert that may exist that tells you that salawaat / salat in the context of the Quran = Divine system and not prayer. Claims are not admissible evidence. One asks for verifiable proof.

However, I note the translation from G. Parwez does use the word prayer and remains very consistent with the Quranic Arabic as opposed to the second rendition that you have provided. Why is there such a dichotomy between the two?

I find G.Parwez's rendition of this verse very agreeable with the Quranic text. Anyone comparing the two translations will note major differences. For example, where is the Arabic "wa-ldhikru-lahi akbaru" in the second rendition which G. Parwez correctly translates as "and remembrance of Allah is the greatest".

As I don't generally recognise a lot of the interpolations that have been 'inserted' into the renditions of the Arabic you provide, I cannot see how we can continue the debate, unless you provide me clear evidence.

Hitherto, we are not arguing from the same platform.

Peace.

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 09:24:43 PM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p245

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 07, 2011, 09:42 (3 hours, 38 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed


Peace

No need to apologise Jawaid. We are all attempting to reach a better understanding of the Quran, God willing. I am aware of the list which was sourced from my site. I am using the same list.

You assert 'surprising quotes to 'prove' prayers' and then you again provide me renderings which I cannot find in the Arabic text.

Here is an example:

4:43 (Those who attain belief shall promptly establish the Divine System in the community, and the Masjid would assume the role of the community center. The believers will assemble in the Masjid for prayer, and to address social welfare and community action). O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Join not the Salaat congregation if your mind is beclouded for any reason, until you understand what you utter, else you might say senseless words that disturb the assembly. Physical cleanliness contributes to moral purity. So, take a bath after ceremonial impurity (post-coital state) If you are traveling, or are ill, or coming from the privy, and cannot find water, take a little clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands, before entering the Masjid. (This will help you prepare psychologically for the assembly (5:6). God pardons and absolves your imperfections.

Where are the highlighted words in the Arabic? What kind of assembly is this in which one requires such cleanliness? I have never known any community centre that requires this level of ritual cleanliness or why it would be deemed appropriate. With respect, not only do I find your rendering unacceptable, I also find unacceptable the conclusions you draw from them.

You say:

2:239 Whether fear threatens you from without, or you are strolling, riding, relaxing in peace, remember God as He has taught you (the Right and Wrong) that you did not know. [3:3,3:190-191, 4:103]

Again, this is general talk about your situation, not instructions to do a ritual prayer. I do not think that you stroll, run and relax in contact prayers, do you?


With respect, you have completely missed the essence of the verse if you read the Arabic clearly. The main purport of the verse makes it clear that form can be abandoned but prayer cannot.

If Salat = Divine system, why is it being abandoned here until they are 'secure / safe' (amintum)?

A divine system surely is a 24/7 system and not restricted to certain times of the day or something which can be abandoned in certain conditions.

Maybe this article may help with an understanding of this verse.


PRAY AS WE HAVE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO PRAY - USING VERSE 2.239 AS SUPPORT FOR A FIXED FORM OF PRAYER

http://quransmessage.com/articles/pray%20as%20we%20have%20taught%20you%20how%20to%20pra...

Jawaid, with all due respect, if you take a step back and re-read your whole post explaining the 'Divine system', surely you can see that it simply doesn't fit. Whereas if you kept the meaning of 'salat' = prayer and re-read the Arabic text, you will see it fits if the verses are understood properly. That is why one can understand the need for Wudu, Qiblah, garments, tone, etc etc.

I don't think we are ever going to be able to agree as our differences are not only theological they go to the crux of our approach of understanding the Quran. Nor do I feel it fruitful to go through each of your renditions. In my opinion, you are concluding on verse renditions which I find do not exist in the Arabic text.

Peace.

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2011, 09:28:04 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=229

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 01:37 (2 days ago) @ Waqas


Waqas,

Peace.

In 'any' epistemic debate one has the right to demand a response keeping in view where the burden of proof lies (with the one who asserts a claim). As a response and as you have intimated, the fallacy of exhaustive hypothesis is not a suitable response.

Having read your analysis at http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm, there are areas of some agreement. However, I also have a response for some of your pointed questions.

You say:

"those who set-up partners can repent and uphold the salat if they trangressed in the system [9:5, 9:11-12]

Can salat mean 'prayer' in this verse? Does The God force people to perform 'prayer' or they will be killed? How would idolaters (i.e. those who set-up partners) pray? Does this make sense to you?"


Verses 9:5 and 9:11-12 have a specific context dealing with treaty breakers. There are two parts. Repentance and acceptance of certain tenets of Islam. Both are done on volition, nothing is forced. The verse simply attempts to distinguish those of the Pagans that show through their actions that they have repented. They show this by following certain tenets. That is where God says they are your 'fa-ikh'waukum fi'ldin' (brothers in religion) 9:11. Brothers in religion can only be related to a conversion in faith proven by actions based on volition.

With your understanding of salaat the verse would still remain problematic as you intimate that salaat is only for those "who are upholding the scripture". (i.e. Mu'mins). Then why would one 'force' (as you have said) Pagans to follow this salaat when they don't believe?

So I ask the same question to you "Does The God force people to perform 'salaat' (your definition of it) or they will be killed?"

You say:

"The salat can be neglected, in favour of following desires [19:59]"

I don't find any directive in the Arabic which says that salaat can be neglected in favour of following desires. The Arabic clearly captures a condition of a people of a later generation who neglected (ada'u) salat and followed their lusts / desires (shahawati). There is no directive in the Arabic where salat can be neglected.


You say:

"If you are reading this and still feel that salat=prayer, and we should rely on traditional hadith (sayings/narrations/stories) to form the sequence/movements/form/recitations of the prayer, ask yourself: does the traditional hadith contain the necessary information to do this? You may be surprised at what you find."

I feel that salaat = prayer but I do not rely on Islamic secondary sources for details.

I feel that you assume that those that believe salaat = prayer need to find details of 'pedantic form and utterance' of 'salaat' from secondary sources because the Quran is silent on this matter. This is the same argument traditionalists assert. Why do you assume that the Quran intends to prescribe this when clearly it doesn't? There is no fixed form or content prescribed by the Quran. However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.

If today's 'traditional' prayer fulfills the basic requirements of the Quran, I have no problem with it.

These are my views and up till yet, no one has provided me any cogency in their argument which has proven to me that prayer means something else. You and I may agree on many things. However on this matter we may have to agree to disagree.

Regards.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

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Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 09:29:40 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p249

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 07, 2011, 11:03 (2 hours, 25 minutes ago) @ Waqas


Peace Waqas,

You said:

"I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your statement on 19:59..."

In my initial post to you, I responded to the following statement you made in your article:

"The salat can be neglected, in favour of following desires [19:59]"

I responded by saying that I could not find that statement in 19:59. Please can you clarify the meaning of your statement which appears without question marks.

I feel that this verse (19:59) is capturing a condition of a people who 'followed their own desires' and abandoned prayer (for whatever reason) much like what I feel, some people are doing today.

You said:

"As a side note, I used to hold the view that the regular/timed salat for the mumineen was a freeform prayer, i.e. no set form other than the basics as laid out in Quran, but after further research this I realised this did not stack up with the Quranic evidence"

Please can you tell me on the strength of your statement "This regular/timed salat is only obligatory upon the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful)" what requirements are actionable at certain times from the Quranic evidence you have ascertained. I always felt following a Divine system was a 24/7 endeavour.

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 09:34:13 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p234

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 13:13 (2 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani


Brother Quasim,

Peace.

With respect, I find the challenge on the requirement to pray based on the present state of Muslims non-sequitur.

Much like Zakat, Salaat is not the only duty the Quran impresses upon believers. In fact, The Quran is replete with numerous directives within its narratives which address personal and societal matters.

There have been many Muslims societies that achieved prominence throughout history but prayer still remained a central component of their tenets.

The failure of today's Muslims is due to the fact the Quran is not being utilised as the primary source of guidance. It has been shackled, abandoned and left by the wayside (mahjoor 25:30) because of the obsessive reliance on Islamic Secondary Sources.

This has nothing to do with the directives to pray. Prayer is linked to worshipping a Divine Creator. However, that is not all the Quran demands of us. It also demands action.

The two must remain in tandem for complete spiritual and societal fulfilment.

Regards.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 09:35:22 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p240

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Sunday, November 06, 2011, 21:28 (16 hours, 6 minutes ago) @ Quasim Hamdani


Dear Quasim,

Peace.

Prayer is an extremely personal connection with God which can penetrate the depths of one's current state of mind and emotions. Everyone's circumstances are undoubtedly different. A customised prayer suited for one's circumstance in a language that is 'understood' I feel is far more meaningful then a robotic 'ritual' prayer in a vernacular that is incomprehensible.

I also find this as one of the many reasons behind why prayer may not be defined by the Quran. A Creator must know His creation and the diversity He has created within (30:22). How could a robotic 'ritual' prayer in a particular language ever be appropriate for such a diverse creation?

Furthermore, I don't find any categorical 'prescription' to recite the Quran as part of prayer. There are many narratives in the Quran which may not be arguably relevant for 'prayer' based recitation such as 2:222 or 9:5 for example. However, having said that the Quran is replete with beautiful timeless prayers, such as the ones you have mentioned and some of the ones I have noted here:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/quranic%20prayers%20FM3.htm

I also find beautiful prayers in the Bible which I personally make use of. The Pater Noster of the NT is one example and there are many others from the OT not least the Shema of Deuteronomy 6.

I firmly believe the Quran's silence allows for fluidity in prayer. After all, God hasn't created humans as automatons.

DO WE HAVE TO PRAY IN ARABIC?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/do%20we%20have%20to%20pray%20in%20arabic%20FM3.htm

Regards.
Joseph.

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2011, 09:36:08 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p246

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 07, 2011, 09:44 (3 hours, 50 minutes ago) @ Imraan
edited by Joseph Islam, Monday, November 07, 2011, 10:14


I completely agree.

Reasons why 'salat' may not be achieving much for the many Muslims of today may be because it has become ritualized, heaped with sectarianism and has lost much of the purpose that was once intended.

Most people don't even understand what they utter in their prayers. A mindless ritual is not only in breach of 4:43 (hatta ta'lamu ma taquluna - until you know what you are saying) it achieves little connection and purpose.

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 05:43:32 AM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p253

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 07, 2011, 18:38 (3 hours, 3 minutes ago) @ Waqas


Peace Waqas,

Thanks for that.

Yes indeed, it does help clarify my understanding of your position better. Of course as you will no doubt appreciate, I retain a differing view  :)

Thanks anyway.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 05:45:59 AM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p254

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Monday, November 07, 2011, 20:11 (1 hours, 32 minutes ago) @ Joseph Islam


Waqas,

Just one question before I draw a line under this whole discussion with regards your understanding of salaat with which I find no cogency.

The Quran was revealed piecemeal. This is even attestable from the Quran. If you take yourself back to the point of revelation, what 'Divine System' could the new Muslims possibly setup when the Quran had not been completed, yet the directive to 'establish salaat' was present?

It is one thing to extract a meaning of 'salat' in the 21st century as meaning a 'Divine System' based on the complete Quran that is with you.

What did it mean to those when the Quran was incomplete or in its infancy? It can be comprehensively argued from the Quran that the directive to 'establish salaat' is an early one in the Quran's revelatory life-cycle.

I look forward to your response.

Peace.

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2011, 05:34:47 PM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p258

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 06:30 (3 hours, 3 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed


You said:

"Instead, a means of 'communication' with Allah is set up five times a day, or at any time, when He has no need of this, neither do we since He has already completed His Revelation, His Words to man, in the Quran. All the other 'I feel better for praying' or 'it gives me spirituality' etc etc etc, is pagan, sufi, ascetic nonsense that dominates the world's religions, bringing no benefit to society"

With all due respect Jawaid, we need to stop viewing the Quranic salaat through the lens of the collective ritualised prayers of the present day Muslims which you so emphatically refer to as 'pooja or namaz'. I feel that you continue to understand the Quranic 'salaat' and judge it through the lens of present day Muslims. This conversation has long moved on and is getting unnecessarily repetitive.

How you can assert that "you are not making your life better by establishing Salat", I simply cannot comprehend. Personally, it has transformed my life and purpose. This is something only I know along with my Creator and those around me. If prayer is performed properly and not in a ritualised manner, it can nurture the soul and the collective psyche of the Ummah. Prayer has to have a meaning and purpose backed up with actions (and not empty, incomprehensible words) and these facets need to be understood. Prayer is also not about the selfish 'ana' (I, me) or what good is it doing for me from ones own limited understanding. No one can understand the mind of the Creator and how He manifests His mercy. We can only ask of Him.

002:186
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me..."

040.060
"And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!""

Respectfully and please do trust me, though it has been the source of much deliberation, nothing in your argument addresses my central queries for me to persuasively accept your understanding. It simply does not represent 'bayyin' (clear proof / evidence). Nor have you once addressed my pointed questions with regards your English renditions of the Quranic verses from which you draw your conclusions.

As I have noted you to quote G Parwez in our discussions when you have deemed it necessary, I prefer the understanding of a site that claims to represent the understanding of G. Parwez, rather than your own interpretation of it.

"We have seen that according to its root meaning, Salaat is a system and not a ritual. Prayer (performed five times a day) is only a component of Salaat. Within this system, prayer is a powerful and effective means of achieving the Quranic goals mentioned earlier. Outside the system, however, it becomes a soulless ritual repeated solely for getting rewards in the hereafter"

"Praying five times a day is only one part of Salaat. When we finish our prayers in the Masjid, we are not done with Salaat. It is not something to do and finish. It involves every aspect of life, keeping it within the guidelines of the Divine Code twenty-four hours a day. And this has to be done within a system under a central authority according to the Qur'an"

http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/islam/prayers/index.asp


Today's prayer has become ritualised. This is something I have always accepted. But to say prayer does not exist is a gross misinterpretation of the Quran in my opinion.

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree.

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

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'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 10:34:49 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p263

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 14:01 (31 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed

Jawaid,

If you want to know what my views on prayer are, you are free to visit my site and the following section.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm

I have discussed my understanding comprehensively with my best understanding of the Arabic.

In response to your pointed question "what you believe Allah does for you", I believe He takes account of my prayer, my needs, and my best interests. I thank him unreservedly for this. Now let me contextualise for you how He takes account of it in my opinion.

God is NOT dependant on time nor does He exist 'in time' that He Himself has created. We exist in time. God transcends space, time and His creation. He is not dependant on the laws He himself has created. A lot of difficulties in our understandings are resolved if we remove God from our linear perception of time and space which He is not subject to. Many verses in the Quran indicate that He is in the past, present and future simultaneously and governs affairs from outside His universal creation.

When I pray, He took account of that prayer before the Universe was created and before He set his master-plan in action for me, for you and the Universe. I adore Him and I wish to worship Him as much as I can based on volition.

I also believe wholeheartedly in His word, the Quran and I find clear instructions which guide me on the best way to worship Him in terms of monotheistic prayer.

020.025-35
(Moses) said: "O my Lord! expand me my breast; Ease my task for me and remove the impediment from my speech, So they may understand what I say: And give me a Minister from my family, Aaron, my brother; Add to my strength through him, And make him share my task, That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint, And remember Thee without stint: For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."

020.036
(God) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"


I have nothing more to say.

Regards,
Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2011, 01:38:24 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p268

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 04:47 (53 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed
edited by Joseph Islam, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 05:41

Jawaid,

Please spare me the poorly disguised insults masqueraded in isolated quotes or commentary which is befitting of school playgound banter. Throughout this discussion you have not once provided me any clear answers to my academic contentions. Rather, you have either skirted the issue by virtue of a lack of response or attempted to provide arguments from renditions I do not find in the Arabic.

You say:
"[God does not fight in person, or send His armies or angels physically. 22:39]"

008.009
"When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank"

008:012
"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger"


I concluded my discussion on this thread with you due to lack of cogency in your arguments and method in my last post. I have no intention to insult you nor do I have the time to waste to entertain yours.

"lakum dinukum waliya din" (to you your religion and for me (is) my religion)

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 07:01:54 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p273

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 09:30 (1 hours, 28 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed
edited by Joseph Islam, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 10:09

Jawaid,

You have found a particular understanding which makes you sleep well. You are entitled to it. I have no problem with that.

However, I also gave you clear verses which challenged your understanding. I find your theology lacking, without warrant and does nothing to reconcile the Quranic verses. Also in my opinion, your long copy and pastes from renditions which are in my view at times a poor reflection of the Quranic Arabic, do nothing but subvert the topic at hand.

With respect, I too feel you have ignored my repeated requests and my academic contentions with your renditions and theological juxtapositions you draw from them. For me you are simply using an alternative scripture.

You say:

"From your responses you have just reproduced the traditional translations of the Quran based on hadith, the Bible, and Persian/Babylonian tales, completely ignoring the meaning of idioms, allegories etc., and being unable to sift out the real meaning of words from this jungle of corruption"

Anyone who is remotely familiar with my humble efforts some of which also appear on my website will be well acquainted with the crux of my work which is based at times on seriously challenging traditional thinking and scholarship. It is geared to addressing the misconceptions of traditional Muslim thought going to the heart of the inherent weaknesses with Islamic Secondary Sources. It also addresses Biblical interpretations. I invite you cordially to see for yourself.

However, I am not prepared to accept what I feel is a flawed argument which I do not find compelling whether that is 'modern' or 'classical / traditional'. I base my judgments on clear proof and the best meaning of the verses (39:18). That is also what the Quran asks me to do.

So much unlike the theology and renditions of the Arabic that I feel you simply 'reproduce', I humbly endeavour to conclude on the most consistent interpretation based on my ardent study of the Quran which serve to reconcile all the Quranic verses with harmony.

If you feel like you want to have the last say on the post, you are most welcome. Please don't expect a further response from me to you on this thread. I don't know which part of my last statement you didn't understand.

"lakum dinukum waliya din"

Peace.

Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell