What a woman can reveal.

[Hassan A]

Salaam everyone my name is Hassan,

Though this is my first post on this forum I am no stranger to the following site (http://quransmessage.com/articles/articles%20FM3.htm) which I have, and continue to, visit occasionally.

Firstly, I would like to briefly commend Brother Joseph Islam on the many articles he’s written on his main site (http://quransmessage.com/articles/articles%20FM3.htm). The knowledge, understanding and wisdom of the Quran he displays on all his articles is truly amazing; as is the way/style he conducts himself in his many debates with respected individuals. May Allah increase you (and all of us) in knowledge and understanding of the Quran; and may your site become accessible to my of our dear Muslim brothers/sister whom I believe could really benefit from it. I could go on and on commending the brother but I believe the readers get the point.

Now to the intent of my post:

An individual whom I was debating regarding what is meant by the term “inherently apparent” in (i.e. what a woman can publicly display) put forth the following argument which I would like the respected members on this forum (including, if possible, brother Joseph Islam) to critique it.

His argument goes as follows:

The Quran is not an ambiguous book; what is ambiguous in one verse(s) is expounded on/made clear in other verse(s). One verse in the Quran which, by itself, seems/sounds ambiguous is the following verse in which Allah instructs women (in dressing modestly) to not reveal anything “EXCEPT WHAT IS ‘INHERENTLY APPEARENT’”:

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to guard their private parts, and not to reveal any of their ‘zinatahhunna’ (beauty spots) EXCEPT WHAT IS NORMAL/INHERENTLY APPARENT…(24;31).

In the above verse (which is a sub-verse of a much longer verse) when women are being told/commanded to reveal nothing ‘except what is normally/inherently apparent’ one is not given/told what is meant by ‘normally/inherently apparent’, thus leaving one perplexed. But, as said before, ambiguous verse(s) are expounded on/made clear in other verse(s). So, what is meant by ‘normally/inherently apparent’ in verse 24:31 (which itself leaves it unclear) is expounded on/made clear in the following verse which orders Muslims what to do before salat (prayer) and how to do it:

"O you who believe, when you rise to observe the Salat, you shall wash your faces and your arms to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles." (Quran 5:6)

The connection between the above verse –verse 5:6 (which instructs Muslims what they should do before salat/prayer and how they should do it) and verse 24:31 (which instructs women to dress modestly and reveal nothing except what is normally/inherently apparent) is that the parts which Allah instructs us to wash before every prayer (face; arms: up to the elbow; head: hair included; feet: up to the ankles) must fall under the category of “normally/inherently apparent’. Because (his argument goes) wudu/ablution is done for physical (as well as spiritual) cleanness and the parts which are most exposed to the elements (such as the face, arms, head, and feet) are the parts which we are instructed to clean before salat/prayer. But if the head/face, arms, and feet of a woman is to be covered then what is/would be the point of instructing them to clean those parts constantly (head face, arms, and feet) if they are always (to be) covered and thus never exposed to the elements. Thus, those parts which Allah instructs us (women as well as men) to clean before prayer are the same parts which is/are referred to as ‘inherently/normally apparent’ in verse 24:31 and which women (as well as men) are free to reveal.

Again I would like the respected members of this forum to critique said brothers’ argument.

Peace to all.

[HopeSeeker]

Those two verses seem to be mutually exclusive and deal with two very different things. If these were connected , wouldn't it mean that showing your neck or you ears would be wrong? And if I am not mistaken Arabs have to cover their heads and arms to protect themselves from the heat then and even now. So to say that those parts of their bodies were not covered might be incorrect. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[Sardar Miyan]

Women are supposed to cover only their bosam and not the Face. Please go through the following Ahah;---
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَا
 الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ذَٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا
33:59
O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
------------------------------------
Therefore the logic as to why men & women are asked to wash Face,Hand,Hair & feet does not hold as
the hands, face, hair and feet need not be covered.

[Hassan A]

Salaam Sardar Miyan

You said:

"Women are supposed to cover only their bosom and not the Face"

I agree. And the brother whose argument I posted wasn't making the argument that women have to cover their faces, rather what he was saying is/was that the parts which a woman can reveal/not cover are the same parts which Allah has instructed us/them to wash (i.e. hands: up to the elbow; feet: up to the ankles; and the face: hair and ears included) as they are the parts which are most exposed to the elements.

In other words, what he's saying is if women are instructed to cover the face, hands, and feet (as some claim) and hence are never exposed (to the elements) then what is the point of Allah instructing them to wash those same parts before prayer.

Peace to you.

[Hassan A]

Salaam HopeSeeker

You said:

"Wouldn’t it mean that showing your neck or you ears would be wrong...So to say that those parts of their bodies were not covered might be incorrect."

With all due respect, I think you might have misread the brother whose argument I posted above. Said brother wasn't necessarily saying that the neck and ears (and for that matter the arms: up to the elbow and feet: up to the ankles) have to be covered. What he’s seems to be suggesting is that the same parts which Allah instructs us to wash before prayer (and thus are the most exposed to the elements) are the same parts which women (and men for that matter) are free to expose.

Peace to you.

[Sardar Miyan]

Allah never asked women to cover face, hand, hair & feet which are to be washed (Abulation ) before
prayer. Some Hadithi people say that women had to cover their Head by using Scarf which is not binding as per Quran. Therefore your friends logic does not hold water. Thanks for sharing.

[Hassan A]

Dear Sardar Miyan,

You said:

"Allah never asked women to cover face, hand, hair & feet"

I (and the brother whose argument I posted) absolutely agree with you that Allah never said we had to cover our face, hand/arms, head/hair and feet. But please re-read my post. The brother whose argument I posted wasn't arguing that women had to cover their head/hair,, face, hands/arms, and feet; rather he was making the opposite argument (i.e. that women DON'T have to cover their head/hair, face, feet, hands/arms) by claiming that the very parts Allah has instructed us to wash before prayer are the same parts which can be EXPOSED/NOT COVERED.

Peace to you.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Brother Hassan

Welcome to the forum. I'm happy to hear that you been following the forum Alhamdulila.

I would like to share my opinion on this matter. But first I would like to share a couple articles from Br. Joseph that I think are related to this topic.

Hijab
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hijaab%20FM3.htm
Thobe-Jilbab
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thobe-jilbab%20FM3.htm
Khimar
http://quransmessage.com/articles/a%20deeper%20look%20at%20the%20word%20khimar%20FM3.htm


Just for clarification I am going to display the translations of verse 24:31 and 24:60 as I can see them being related.

24:31. And tell the believing women to restrain their looks, and to guard their privates, and not display their beauty/ornaments(zinatahunna) except what is apparent thereof(illa ma thahara minha), and to draw their coverings over their breasts, and not expose their beauty/ornaments(Zinatahunna) except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, what their right hands possess, their male attendants who have no sexual desires, or children who are not yet aware of the nakedness of women. And they should not strike their feet to draw attention to their hidden beauty/ornaments(Zinatihinna). And repent to God, all of you believers, so that you may succeed.

24:60. Women past the age of childbearing, who have no desire for marriage, commit no wrong by taking off their outer clothing, provided they do not flaunt their beauty/ornaments(Zinatin). But to maintain modesty is better for them. God is Hearing and Knowing.


Verse 24:31 suggests to me that there beauty or ornaments can only be displayed to the ones mentioned in the verse by not wearing an outer clothing ("Thiyabahunna"). Why? Because verse 24:60 suggests that a outer clothing ("Thiyabahunna") needs to be worn by women except older ones past the age of marriage.

Its clear from the verses that the beauty/ornaments (Zina) that God is referring to is different from mens.  It seems like the ending of the verse indicates this very well as we can see that God is telling women they should not strike their feet to draw attention to their hidden beauty/ornaments(Zinatihinna) which is probably the breasts and so on that women are also told to cover in the beginning of the verse. As by striking the feet or by walking in certain ways womens body can shake and make attention to their beauty/ornaments(Zina) that men can't do. How ever at times no matter how much a women covers they may not be able to hide everything especially when moving walking and so on. So because you may always tell a women from a man there will most likely be something that is apparent thereof (thahara minha) the body of a women. So I would think thats what the verse is referring to.

Also to keep in mind that older women are excused from wearing outer clothing provided that they do not flaunt there beauty/ornaments(zinatin).

I would also probably say that Zina in all those contexts in 24:30 and 24:60 would more be better translated as ORNAMENTS rather than BEAUTY because I would assume that as women age they lose their beauty but are still left with ornaments. And its possibly thats why they are excused from wearing a outer piece of clothing.

So in my opinion I would have to disagree that verse 5:6 and 24:31 are related. Also because many people don't show their feet to the ankles and often wear socks and shoes. And also some people wear jackets or long sleeve shirts however we are required to uncover the sleeves and take off the socks and shoes in order to fulfil the washing of the arms to the elbows and the feet to the ankles.

May Peace be with you Hassan.

[Hassan A]

walaikum assalam Brother Hamzeh

Allow me to begin by saying that the argument put forth in my post was not one made by me, but rather by an individual whom i was engaged in a debate with online; and though I happen to agree with the gist of that individuals argument which is that WOMEN DO NOT have to cover their head/face, it was the "proof" he put forth (i.e. using 5:6 as proof of what parts women can reveal) which I was skeptical of and hence motivated me to post his exact argument on this forum to seek clarification and critique of it.

That being said, I greatly thank you for your reply; by God it helped clear things up.

With regards to the links of the articles you've shared with me I must say I've read them before (as well as almost all the other articles on Brother Josepha Islam main site) and I absolutely agree with them and believe them irrefutable.

Thank you again, Brother. And peace with you.

[Wakas]

peace Hassan,

I recommend the following for further analysis:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

[Hassan A]

Peace Brother Wakas,

Thank you for the article you linked me. I enjoyed reading it.

I would also like to thank all the members who participated in this discussion and provided me with their perspective with regards to the inquiry raised in my main/first post.

Peace be with all.