The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

[hicham9]

Indeed @OP, the Qurān advocates a geocentric view of the fascinating (dualistic) world we were born into (Creation), and does in fact negate heliocentrism on many occasions.

For instance, nowhere does the textus give mention of a "spinning ball-earth" ! Instead the Author directs the reader's attention towards an extended plane that His Absoluteness, The Supreme Creator, made a stable, ground-floor/carpet for us to dwell upon.

Consider this: in Arabic, the locution "flat earth" translates as: ارض مسطحة

Adj. مسطح (fem. مسطحة) stems from the Arabian, šemitic verbal-root sṭḥ (سطح).

Now, take a look at the one and only occurrence of vb. سطح in the Qurān (88:20) :

افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?

The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Korān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamitrsadhere to heliocentrism nowadays).

سلام

[A.H.A]

Peace to All

The argument of Bro Lobotomize94, is same as the argument of flat Earth. People always use Q[88:20] to prove Quran supports Earth is flat. Here is what it says:

1 - Do they not look at the camels, how they were created? Q[88:17]
2 - And at the Sky, how it is raised high? Q[88:18]
3 - And at the Mountains, how they are fixed firm? Q[88:19]
4 - And on the earth how was it outstretched? Q[88:20]

The verses clearly not talking about modern men orbiting the Earth and watching from a space station, rather Arabs with their camels in a desert. Now, what do they see if they look?

1 - If they look at their right or left, they will see their camels.
2 - If they look above, they will see a blue sky.
3 - If they look around, they probably see mountains.
4 - If they look below, they will see the ground/surface of the earth or the desert.

Translating the word "الارض" to Earth (with capital E) is not really honest thing to do, because the Arab man can't see it, he can only see the surface of it not the whole planet.

As for Geocentric of the universe, imagine this:
1 - Muhammad comes and claims, I'm messenger of God. People: You're a liar, but maybe!
2 - Muhammad who is already a liar in the eyes of his people, claims and makes a clear statement that earth is a planet. People: You're a liar and we have no doubt about it!

As for 1, Muhammad can provide some arguments and convince his people, because this is his job.
As for 2, Muhammad can not prove his statement and he shouldn't have to, because this is not his job. The difference between a scientist and a prophet/messenger is like a hardware specialist and a software developer, respectively.

[Hassan A]

Salaam all.

Further to what brother/sister A.H.A said, I also find the argument of a flat earth to be lacking. The below answer sums up my view of the verses usually cited to support said view point:

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Quran-say-that-the-Earth-is-flat/answer/Akbar-Hashmi-2?srid=t0CR&share=1

Having read the above, I believe the verses referring to the "flatness" of the earth to be a metaphorical. When you stand on the road, does the Earth not look flat to you? Indeed it does. But when viewed from outer space it's round.

Having said all of that, I share a similar sentiment with brother Joseph Islam when he made the following statement:

"The Quran was not meant to turn the desert people, to whom it was sent to, into future scientists, nor to present information which could only be verified 1400 years later by modern scientific developments. Rather, the purpose was to present arguments to the people to whom it was sent to in a way that their 1400 century minds could grasp, and in a way in which they, at that time, perceived the world around them, with a view to remove all doubts, so that they could better relate to them. It would be pointless, I would think, to present 'facts' which the desert Arabs could never verify. Neither would there be much point to present them with arguments which their minds at that time could not comprehend nor with details that they could never grasp."

[good logic]

Peace Hassan.

I think even today Qoran is presenting to us facts we do not comprehend nor can we verify:

" Yawma natwi assamaa katayyi ...lilkutub, Kama badaana awwala khalkin nueeduhu...etc.

What are we to make of this futuristic statement?

There are enough straight forward things to understand but there are also things which we have to remain patient about or leave for future generation  to unravel?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[samson]

My view is that the Quran does support the geocentric model. It would have been easy for God to say that the Sun is the centre of the solar system and that the Earth rotates. But he didn't. The earth being the centre of the "universe" is a clear sign of God's power and it's extremely if not impossible to deny that only and entity such as God could be causing this. I believe God provides clear signs/evidences of his existence and power. These evidences are deliberately meant to defy science and logical reasoning because they are meant to stick out. If things were explainable via science then they would not be classed as divine/miracles. When Moses parted the sea it was a clear miracle. If we could do that ourselves then it would not be classed as a miracle but just a phenomena which people of that time were unaware of.

I think many people don't really understand the Quran when God says that it was He who created the Earth, the stars, created life, etc. When God does something it means it's divine and no one else can do and it's not natural. Take for example the simple phenomena of gravity on earth. Gravity is not a natural phenomena. Only God can create gravity and only he can cause mass to come together to form larger masses. The current scientific understanding is that stars form when dust clouds collapse and what causes the collapse is probably fluctuations in gravity. This is unproven. Scientists have done experiments to get dust and/or small particles to clump together to form bigger masses. They can't. The claim that all mass has gravity is unproven. Scientist cannot prove it. However many people just assume it be true since that's what the media will assume.

It's the same with life. Scientists simply cannot create life from scratch. Life is NOT a natural phenomena.It is only something that God can create.

Look up the science and read carefully what they have found.

[good logic]

Peace samson.

You say:

My view is that the Quran does support the geocentric model. It would have been easy for God to say that the Sun is the centre of the solar system and that the Earth rotates. But he didn't.

There is also  the view that Qoran could have said that the earth is the centre of the solar system and that the earth is fixed. But He did not.
For me Qoran clearly supports the view that "earth is moving in an orbit" ,like all the other planets of the solar system. Day .night and seasons are the proof of that.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[hicham9]

I mean no disrespect but, last time i checked, "good logic" is a non-Arabic speaker who's never read/studied the WHOLE quranic text in its original language, as such i wouldn't take his word for anything here! The Quran advocate a non-rotating PLANATE earth. I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession currently working on a quranic lexicon, still don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself. Both the sun and moon are in motion in the Quran, and the earth a stable, outstretched plane.

Earth's flatness/levelness is an OBSERVABLE living FACT backed up by ground-based experiments and high-altitude observational evidence. Hence, the quranic question: Do they not then LOOK ?! (افلا ينظرون)



سلام

[good logic]

Peace brother hicham.

Welcome to the forum.

Since your post mentions me, please allow me to clarify two things for you,so you and the readers are clear and have both views.

1--Ten years ago, your statement would have been correct. Since then, I made it my business to learn Arabic and study Qoran from cover to cover.
 I am happy to announce  I have now memorised most of the Qoran in Arabic.
Yes brother From surah "Alfatiha, to surah "Al-Naas", I am still rehearsing the "HM s" chapters as i am finding I need more practice with these surahs.
GOD willing I have made a target to achieve my goal of memorising all Qoran by this year- 2016- from cover to cover.
This is another project I wanted to add to my study of Qoran for my own benefit.
I am more than happy to meet with you and some volunteer witnesses to check my claim.

2- I do not claim to be an expert  or expect anyone to take my words as "facts" like you seem to imply about you. I always ask others to use "17:36" and check for themselves. Also Qoran is clear that knowing Arabic is not the most important factor to study/ learn Qoran:
2:118
وَقالَ الَّذينَ لا يَعلَمونَ لَولا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَو تَأتينا ءايَةٌ كَذٰلِكَ قالَ الَّذينَ مِن قَبلِهِم مِثلَ قَولِهِم تَشٰبَهَت قُلوبُهُم قَد بَيَّنَّا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يوقِنونَ

GOD is saying here "those you attain certainty", It does not mean those who understand Arabic!!!
5:68:
قُل يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ لَستُم عَلىٰ شَىءٍ حَتّىٰ تُقيمُوا التَّورىٰةَ وَالإِنجيلَ وَما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكُم مِن رَبِّكُم وَلَيَزيدَنَّ كَثيرًا مِنهُم ما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ طُغيٰنًا وَكُفرًا فَلا تَأسَ عَلَى القَومِ الكٰفِرينَ

GOD is saying here "whether one knows Arabic or not" most will not benefit from Qoran!!!!
7:146:
سَأَصرِفُ عَن ءايٰتِىَ الَّذينَ يَتَكَبَّرونَ فِى الأَرضِ بِغَيرِ الحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوا كُلَّ ءايَةٍ لا يُؤمِنوا بِها وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الرُّشدِ لا يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الغَىِّ يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُم كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَكانوا عَنها غٰفِلينَ
Brother, it is obvious to you,since you know Arabic what GOD is saying here.i.e irrelavant whether one knows Arabic!!!
41:44:
وَلَو جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءانًا أَعجَمِيًّا لَقالوا لَولا فُصِّلَت ءايٰتُهُ ءَأَعجَمِىٌّ وَعَرَبِىٌّ قُل هُوَ لِلَّذينَ ءامَنوا هُدًى وَشِفاءٌ وَالَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ فى ءاذانِهِم وَقرٌ وَهُوَ عَلَيهِم عَمًى أُولٰئِكَ يُنادَونَ مِن مَكانٍ بَعيدٍ

And similarly here!!!!
In other words GOD is saying:
56:79:
لا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا المُطَهَّرونَ
Hope that clarifies my side for you and the readers.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[hicham9]

Salute @GL,

1--Ten years ago, your statement would have been correct. Since then, I made it my business to learn Arabic and study Qoran from cover to cover.

You've been studying (post-quranic) MSA for ten years ! Wow !!!

Too bad, the Quran's original language is neither MSA nor Classical Arabic, but "Nabatean" Aramaic !

I am happy to announce  I have now memorised most of the Qoran in Arabic.
Yes brother From surah "Alfatiha, to surah "Al-Naas", I am still rehearsing the "HM s" chapters as i am finding I need more practice with these surahs.
GOD willing I have made a target to achieve my goal of memorising all Qoran by this year- 2016- from cover to cover.

Good ! Though memorization does not = understanding !

This is another project I wanted to add to my study of Qoran for my own benefit.
I am more than happy to meet with you and some volunteer witnesses to check my claim.

As an ex-sunni, i come from a society whereof most people memorize the Quran by heart, from infants to old people, yet most don't understand what they are parroting. So again, memorizing the Quran does not mean you understand the messages of the Quran.

2- I do not claim to be an expert  or expect anyone to take my words as "facts" like you seem to imply about you.

The Quran is crystal clear for the rational/objective reader, you just wish to foist your baseless/inherited "spinning/rotating ball" upon the clear text out of confirmation bias (to satisfy your inner ego).

Let the messenger speak for itself, brother.

I always ask others to use "17:36" and check for themselves. Also Qoran is clear that knowing Arabic is not the most important factor to study/ learn Qoran:
2:118
وَقالَ الَّذينَ لا يَعلَمونَ لَولا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَو تَأتينا ءايَةٌ كَذٰلِكَ قالَ الَّذينَ مِن قَبلِهِم مِثلَ قَولِهِم تَشٰبَهَت قُلوبُهُم قَد بَيَّنَّا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يوقِنونَ

GOD is saying here "those you attain certainty", It does not mean those who understand Arabic!!!
5:68:
قُل يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ لَستُم عَلىٰ شَىءٍ حَتّىٰ تُقيمُوا التَّورىٰةَ وَالإِنجيلَ وَما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكُم مِن رَبِّكُم وَلَيَزيدَنَّ كَثيرًا مِنهُم ما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ طُغيٰنًا وَكُفرًا فَلا تَأسَ عَلَى القَومِ الكٰفِرينَ

GOD is saying here "whether one knows Arabic or not" most will not benefit from Qoran!!!!
7:146:
سَأَصرِفُ عَن ءايٰتِىَ الَّذينَ يَتَكَبَّرونَ فِى الأَرضِ بِغَيرِ الحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوا كُلَّ ءايَةٍ لا يُؤمِنوا بِها وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الرُّشدِ لا يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الغَىِّ يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُم كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَكانوا عَنها غٰفِلينَ
Brother, it is obvious to you,since you know Arabic what GOD is saying here.i.e irrelavant whether one knows Arabic!!!
41:44:
وَلَو جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءانًا أَعجَمِيًّا لَقالوا لَولا فُصِّلَت ءايٰتُهُ ءَأَعجَمِىٌّ وَعَرَبِىٌّ قُل هُوَ لِلَّذينَ ءامَنوا هُدًى وَشِفاءٌ وَالَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ فى ءاذانِهِم وَقرٌ وَهُوَ عَلَيهِم عَمًى أُولٰئِكَ يُنادَونَ مِن مَكانٍ بَعيدٍ

And similarly here!!!!
In other words GOD is saying:
56:79:
لا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا المُطَهَّرونَ
Hope that clarifies my side for you and the readers.

Actually, you cannot correctly understand the Quran without learning its original language first, this is only factual ! The textus constantly proclaims itself to be in an evident, Arabian tongue ! Natheless, if you wish, i can point out some recent inputs of yours from FM whereof it's plain that you can't even understand basic Arabic.

سلام

[good logic]

Peace hicham.

First you say:

I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession .

Then you go on to claim,quote:
Too bad, the Quran's original language is neither MSA nor Classical Arabic, but "Nabatean" Aramaic !


Need I say more?

However I agree with you on this:
memorizing the Quran does not mean you understand the messages of the Quran.

But you omitted the part where I said "I have been studying Qoran for the last few years.

Brother,I hope you can see clearly that you are not being fair and hence I am choosing ,with respect, to close my conversation with you.

Readers can look at what we are both saying and make up their own minds.
With friendship and respect, I make this post my last reply to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[hicham9]

First you say:
I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession .

Then you go on to claim,quote:
Too bad, the Quran's original language is neither MSA nor Classical Arabic, but "Nabatean" Aramaic !


Need I say more?

This is quote mining (contextomy), a lying tactic !

I said : I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession currently working on a quranic lexicon, still don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself.

Plz don't misquote me again !

But you omitted the part where I said "I have been studying Qoran for the last few years.

Your "study" depends on your level of aquaintance with the quranic tongue. And mind you, last time i checked, not even the very first word in the Quran (بسم) exist in the post-quranic Arabic you've allegedly been studying for a decade !

Reassess

سلام

[Star]

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS.

We all said we were done arguing over this ridiculous issue in the previous thread, so y'all went and started up the old one. Since this debate is obviously ongoing, I'm going to reassert what I said as my last reply in the previous thread.

This is what I said:

{Honestly, I'm about done with this. I was supposed to be studying, but instead I'm here writing out rebuttals to far-fetched conspiracy theorists.

Hicham9, I think the real problem is not that you believe the earth is flat. The problem is that you believe EVERY nonsensical "theory" the internet throws at you, like how the zombie apocalypse is about to take place, and NASA members are Freemasons, and aliens are about to take over the earth, and the planes flown into the Twin Towers were invisible, and the moon landing never happened. Seriously.

I'm going to quit arguing with you about the actual flatness of the earth, and instead I'm going to discuss your ideology.

Numero Uno: Don't believe stuff without verifying it. We believe that Joseph Islam's articles display the real Islam because they provide concrete evidence in favor of such a conclusion. They make sense, and they appeal to human nature in general. However, your conspiracy theories provide no such concrete evidence AT ALL.

Numero Deux: When you believe these theories, you're falsely accusing people of lying and deceiving others. You're attributing lies to others. Your theories were mildly amusing at first in a "Saturday Night Live" kind of way, but now they're just bizarre and disturbing, somewhat like Trump's speeches. You've gotten to the point where you're literally slandering people. And I am not amused. I don't think Hassan and Seraphina are amused either.

I don't even think Joseph can explain things to you now. You've kind of gotten to that point already. But if he could try working his magic, that'd be nice.

Please keep in mind the following verses:

“Surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful" -39.3

“... the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars" - 24.8

24:15. When you were propagating it (lies) with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.

24:16. And why did you not, when you heard it, say: “It is not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You (O Allah)! This is a great lie.’

24:17. Allah forbids you from it and warns you not to repeat the like of it (lies) forever, if you are believers.

And read verse 17.36 again.


WAKE UP, PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT INCREASING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY.

I don't want to insult you, I want to teach you what makes sense and what doesn't. You need to start listening.}


I still hold that view. Hicham9, please start verifying and stop swallowing up everything the internet tells you.

[hicham9]

Hicham9, please start verifying and stop swallowing up everything the internet tells you.

I promise to stop aguing in favor of the truth (here), if you can actually stop whining like an immature child and stick to the topic at hand by actually providing at least one quranic passage in support of your inherited bubble.

We're not here to discuss andor believe what Mia666 WANTS us to discuss/believe !!!

Stick to the topic or spare me the irrelevant gibberish.

[Star]

Now I am going to address Hicham9's point that one cannot understand the Quran unless they understand Arabic.

First, the Quran is not in Aramaic. Jesus spoke Aramaic, which is a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic. Muhammad spoke Arabic. When you say that the Quran is in Aramaic, you are denying the fact that the Quran is in clear, truthful Arabic. Not Hebrew!

Second, Brother Joseph doesn't speak Arabic either, the last time I checked. He uses Lane's Lexicon for checking the meanings of words. Personally, I speak better French than Arabic, but I can still gain a really good understanding of what the Quran says, by using multiple reliable translations and checking them against the morphology of certain verses. I understand Quranic law pretty well. And guess what? I DON'T KNOW ARABIC.

*collective gasp of horror*

The Quran was revealed in Arabic for the desert Arabs to understand. However, linguists can easily translate it into other languages, and they've been doing it since Islam started spreading to non-Arabic-speaking parts of the world. The Quran was revealed as a guidance for the RIGHTEOUS (Beginning of Surah 2). "Righteous" includes both Arabic speakers and speakers of all other languages.

The Quran was not sent down for a specific race. It was sent down for EVERYONE who cares to listen to it.

And then, about the actual flatness of the earth. The Quran says that the LAND is spread out flat for us to build roads on. The word "ard" means land or the SURFACE of the earth. The Quran mentions the rotation of the sun and moon without mentioning the earth's rotation, but it never says that the sun rotates AROUND the earth. It's entirely neutral on this issue, I believe. And science tells us that the earth is round and goes around the sun. Why shouldn't we believe this HIGHLY OBVIOUS fact when we have concrete proof? Why should we invent nonsensical lies about the Quran, claiming that it supports the false geocentric theory? Don't you realize that God doesn't like this kind of behavior? Why should we attribute conspiracy theories to God and say that He supports them, when in reality, only delusional people support them?

This is probably going to be my last comment on this thread, unless I see something that desperately needs to be commented on. I sincerely want to change the outrageous and deceptive views of some of our members (*cough*), but if they're not going to listen, then I can't force them.

[Star]

About my comment that Brother JAI doesn't know Arabic: I'm pretty sure he doesn't, but if he actually does, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if he actually did or not.