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Offline IjazAhmad

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Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« on: May 19, 2016, 06:41:52 PM »
As-salaamu 'alaykum!

Brother Joseph mentions the following:

It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was granted wisdom even as a child (19:29-30, 5:110). There is no proof from the Quran that he was bestowed with a separate book called the 'Injeel' at such a young age. In contrast, the Injeel seems to refer to the 'wisdom' that was granted to him. (http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm)

However....

19:28   "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, and your mother has never been unchaste!"
19:29   So she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle?"
19:30   He said: "I am a servant of God, He has given me the Book and made me a prophet."
19:31   "And He has made me blessed wherever I am, and He has charged me with the contact prayer and purification as long as I am alive."

Doesn't 'the Book' allude to  the Injeel?

Wa as-salaam!

Offline ilker

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Re: Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 06:04:14 AM »
assalamu alaikum

and this one from the 6. surah

83. And that was Our Proof which We gave Ibrahim (Abraham) against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

84. And We bestowed upon him Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nuh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), and Harun (Aaron). Thus do We reward the good-doers.

85. And Zakariya (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and 'Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyas (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

86. And Isma'il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas'a (Elisha), and Yunus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).

87. And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren, We chose them, and We guided them to a Straight Path.

88. This is the Guidance of Allah with which He guides whomsoever He will of His slaves. But if they had joined in worship others with Allah, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them.

89. They are those whom We gave the Book, Al-Hukm (understanding of the religious laws), and Prophethood. But if these disbelieve therein (the Book, Al-Hukm and Prophethood), then, indeed We have entrusted it to a people (such as the Companions of Prophet Muhammad ) who are not disbelievers therein.

another translation for 89 is:

Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood. But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers.

So these prophets were given wisdom besides Scripture according to these ayats.

Offline Zack

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Re: Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 11:11:53 AM »
assalamu alaikum

and this one from the 6. surah
84. And We bestowed upon him Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nuh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), and Harun (Aaron). Thus do We reward the good-doers.And Zakariya (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and 'Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyas (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.
86. And Isma'il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas'a (Elisha), and Yunus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).

89. They are those whom We gave the Book, Al-Hukm (understanding of the religious laws), and Prophethood.

Relating to the quote above, there is no way that the above Messengers each brought a written revelation from God. Otherwise there would be over 20 Holy Books. In regards to Isa, in my understanding he definitely did not bring a written message. There is no record of such a thing. What was brought by Isa was a message, and a written account was by eye-witnesses.... with this written account of the Injil being held by the Ahli Kitab at the time of Muhammad. The idea of the Prophets bringing a physical Book rather than an oral Word of God is mixing up later Abbasid Era traditions.

So the issue here is how to interpret these verses of the Quran, where it is not a Book that was given, but an oral revelation. One thing to keep in mind is that the Quran is communicating to an Arab 7th century audience. Why was it communicated as Kitab to its audience? Did that mean something different to what we understand? Did the Arab audience think that only the Kitab meant it was God's revelation, and oral revelation lacked authority, therefore the word Kitab was deliberately used?

The key question is asking question, not just assume that there was a Book revealed to each Prophet.

Wasalam
Zack

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »
Dear IjazAhmad

Wa alaikum assalam

Brother Zack is correct.

When the Quran refers to 'being given a Book' (verb: 'ata' - give something or to bring) as in the verses you have cited (19:30) and as has ilker (6:89), this does not always mean that a new Book / revelation is given. For example even the 'Jews' were also given Books. As I trust that you will agree, surely that does not mean that every Jew was a given a separate Book inspired by God!

002:146
"Those to whom We gave (Arabic: ata) the Book recognise it as they recognise their own sons. But indeed, a group of them surely conceal the truth while they know [it]."

When main scriptures are inherited by a person or a people, this is also interpreted by the Quran as being 'given the Book'. Please kindly see verse 7:169 below:

"And there followed them successors who inherited the Book [while] taking the goods of this lower life and saying..."

I have already respectfully shared in my article below [1] what the Injeel was. For example, I shared:

Quote
It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was granted wisdom even as a child (19:29-30, 5:110). There is no proof from the Quran that he was bestowed with a separate book called the 'Injeel' at such a young age. In contrast, the Injeel seems to refer to the 'wisdom' that was granted to him.
 
 003:048
"And God will teach him The Book (al-kitaba) and The Wisdom (l-hikmata), and The Torah (l-tawrata) and The Injeel (l-injeel)"
 
The significance of the above verse is evident. The ‘al-Kitab’ (definite noun) is strongly equated with the Torah and the Injeel with ‘Wisdom’.
 
It is quite possible that Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) wisdom was later committed to writing by early Christian communities in the form of Gospel writings, albeit with differences. If this line of argumentation is accepted, the 'Injeel' would then be a reference to the true wisdom that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) imparted which was contained in the various Biblical sources that were being read by the 7th century Christians in Arabia.
[2]

This appears to be have been ignored. What also seems to be ignored is the clear reference in the Quran of two 'Books' with no reference to the 'Injeel' being a separate 'Book' revealed before the Quran.

046:012
And before this, was the Book of Moses (kitabu musa) as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.

As I trust that you will agree, we must attempt to reconcile all the verses first especially given the articles shared and the references cited from the Quran. For example, the above verse 46:12 was shared in the article and is explicit that before the Quran, the major revealed Book was the Book of Moses. Yes indeed, Israelite prophets came after Prophet Moses and shared their own wisdom as part of inspired writings, but the major revelation with laws granted to a prophet before prophet Muhammad arguably is contained in the Torah. These Israelite prophets must have also inherited the Book(s) of Moses first.

I trust this clarifies, God willing

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] WHAT IS THE INJEEL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm
[2] Ibid.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline ilker

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Re: Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2016, 02:27:46 AM »
salam.

so if we consider "injeel" as "wisdom" rather than a "book", could somebody (maybe brother Joseph) please explain me 7:157 ? which is:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written (maktooban) in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel (fee attawrati waalinjeeli) , who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2016, 05:03:00 PM »
Wa alaikum assalam Ilker,

May I kindly refer you back to the article again in reply #3 please where in the summary I wrote:

"In 7th century Arabia, the Injeel would have represented the Christian literature being read at the time of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) ministry. This would have most likely been a set of 'teachings' based on the wisdom imparted by Prophet Jesus. (pbuh) and would have comprised of canonical as well as some non-canonical literature." [1]

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] WHAT IS THE INJEEL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline ilker

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Re: Brother Joseph's article "What is the Injeel"
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2016, 09:50:22 PM »
salam,

Thanks for the clarification. JZK.