49:11 women

[yahya]

Assalam alikum i was just wondering why are women mentioned separate in 49:11 because when it says people I thought that would include men and women and even if it did mean men then why are men and women mentioned separately jazzakkallah

[ilker]

salam.

interesting question. anyone has an idea ?

[Nura]

Salam everyone

U know sometimes at a party, when we are about to give a speech in English we greet by saying ' Goodmorning / Goodevening everyone' then in the next sentence we say welcome ladies and gentlemen. Now, we already did greet all males and females when we said ' goodmorning everyone' but still we said ladies and gentlemen next but does it mean there is a reason behind this? Not really, it is just a manner of speaking or style of speaking. Every language is beautiful and different, and in every language we have a lot of options for saying the same thing in a different way. I believe here God is just using one of those styles.

We also use the word humans, when we want to talk about our species, but someone might like to make use of the term ' homo sapiens' which mean essentially the same thing.

There are also verses where Allah says that believers should not marry unbelievers and again somewhere else He explains this in detail:
Do not marry (you men) the ‘mushrikaat’ until they believe; for even a believing slave woman is better than a ‘mushrika’, even if you like her. And do not marry (you women) the ‘mushrikeen’ until they believe. A believing slave man is better than a mushrik, even if you like him. These invite to the fire, while God invites to Paradise and forgiveness, with His permission, and He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may remember" 2:221

God has already made use of 'believers' but He chose to expand it by mentioning both genders as well, it can be seen as a way of just clarifying a concept in a more detailed way.

Also the particular verse u r talking about is reffering to disagreements between beleivers and how beleivers can be mean to each other and insult each other when they have a difference in opinion about something. God tells us in the previous verses of the same surah that beleivers will have differences of opinion but we are brothers to each other, by which He means we should be kind and forgiving to each other just like the way we are quick to forgive our family members. So, when God said 'believers' are brothers in the previous verses, He expanded the concept to include both males and females in this verse, saying both males and females should be forgiving and merciful and respectful to fellow believers be they male or female. God is warning us against calling each other names and basically telling us not to be bullies.

[ilker]

Alhamdulillah. Nice comment thanks

[yahya]

So why are women mentioned separate from people why not people then men then women why people and women why are women specific in this verse and why does it say women against women then women against men and women and vice aversa

[Nura]

Salam yahya

Because the issue of disagreements between men has been adrressed in the previous verses in the same sura when Allah was saying that if the Prophet were to listen to all of the believers' whims, then the belivers would have been in trouble but Allah has made the love of faith stronger and dearer to the true believers than their ego and their need to win arguments. Allah has asked the Prophet to take just decisions and side with the beleivers who are more just in a disagreement between two parties of believers.

In the surah it is being alluded that just because they are believers, no one will be favored, the Prophet is asked to fight the oppressor party among the two till justice is served. When the issue of disagreements between two believers arise, Allah is letting us know He wants the Prophet to be on the side of the righteous person.
We often forget that the Prophet was often asked to mediate between two or multiple feuding parties. To define the role of the Prophet during such conflict between believers and also to inform/assure the believers that the Prophet has been instructed to be fair and just no matter who is the person feuding. This is very important because maybe some people's hearts thought that Prophet will favor those believers who were personally closer to him or more socially powerful and rich believers will be favored in conflicts. But God leaves no scope for such a doubt in belivers' minds when He says that being a believer does not automatically grant u Allah's and the Prophet's favor, if u r justified and u r the one who is correct and just, the Prophet will side with u.

Then Allah moves on to say what kind of a relationship He expects believers to have. He expects believers to behave like brothers ( merciful, forgiving and kind) to each other despite having differences among themselves. God then clarifies that women as well should be just and not oppress, during those times most women were not involved in the structuring of a society i.e the judiciary etc. Women were in charge of household matters but everyone knows that petty politics and fights also occur between women in those surroundings, some women domestically abuse other women, they call each other names etc. So God was asking all people be they men or women to be just and not oppress each other.

The following verses then say that if believers continue to backbite and slander and be mean to each other, why do they do such things? Would they like to eat the flesh of their brothers? Why is brothers used here? Does it mean people only backbite about men? People don't backbite about females? Obviously the answer is no. Males, females, all people backbite! But the point is to Allah it is like we are ripping into the flesh of someone who is dear to us. When we read that verse we can understand just how abhorrent God finds such behaviour among believers.

Then Allah continues to address believers and tells us that all people come from the same initial pair of humans, how we all have the same roots and our purpose is to get to know each other and be kind and just with each other, God divided us amin different nations but no nation or people or tribe is superior or is dearer to Allah. How the most noble/righteous among us are the dearest to Allah.

To summarise, mentioning women seperately does not mean anything sinister exists among women or something like that. It just means Allah is clarifying that He expects women to not be bullies to each other and be just. Generally women dealt with the household issues and domestic issues, mainly Allah is saying no matter in which sphere of life ( social life, professional, domestic household, judiciary etc) there is a disagreement between believers, the believers are expected to be just even if it means going against family members and friends. If the Prophet is asked to be the judge, then he is asked to not side with the oppressor.

The verse u cite is not singling out women with any purpose in mind. We always have to read surrounding verses to get the hang of the context. Believing women fight among themsleves, believing men also fight among themselves and so do believing men and women. The verse is not singling out women as more aggressive or as more prone to fighting or as more unjust or cruel among the two genders. I believe that the intention was to bring women and men under the injuction of justice, forgiveness and mercy.

[wanderer]

What a great answer Nura!

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum sister Nura

Masha'Allah

May Allah(swt) the Most Gracious reward you for your efforts 

Peace

[yahya]

Thanks jazzakkallah

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

I think that MasAllah Nura is doing a wonderful job on the forum and may God bless you for your efforts 

However I do disagree with comments about this verse. Firstly, the believers are addressed which clearly denotes both genders and then the same message is repeated with the target being exclusively women.

The message is being emphasised for women and may that be because women are more prone to that particular behaviour?

[Nura]

Salam Truthseeker

The verse does single out women but not with the intention that women are more prone to such behaviour. Sorry but there is no indication of this in scripture nor in research papers in behavioral science. Painting any gender as more aggressive is only going to put gasoline on the gender wars that we often witness. Not only that such interpretation of verses result in the belief that women are targeted in the Quran as more unrighteous of the two genders by some people. But, we know it is not like that, God does not show favoritism in the Quran.

But I would like to ask u then why was this issue of disgreements between believers begun in the previous verses with the message that the Prophet should not be influenced by any party of beleivers? Surely you do not mean that the focus has been women all along and that the Prophet used to mediate fights between women always? Why was the masculine term ' flesh of brothers' used? Or the phrase ' believers are brothers' used? For some people usage of these may seem like only men backbite! And that is why it is said 'flesh of your dead brother'! If the focus is fights between women then shouldn't the usage also be ' flesh of dead sisters'?

If we take a look at the gender of soldiers at present or in the past, most were men. Does that mean men are more aggressive prone to fighting?  or is it that because they are generally naturally blessed with more physical strength than women they make more suitable soldiers for war, where physical strength gives an edge. Can we say men are more aggressive? Is that fair?

I am sure you are familiar with the verse where God disapproves of homosexuality. The verse discusses such behaviour in the context of men. But can we then conclude men were singled out because men are more prone to be homosexuals? Does it make sense? Does real life medical  science data support that conclusion that men are mostly homosexuals? R women not homosexual? Did God not know there r lesbians? Then why did this verse not mention them? Or the issue of lesbianism clarified in detail some place else in Quran?

Sometimes abhorrent behaviour in the Quran is discussed in the context of one gender, that doesn't mean others not belonging to that particular gender cannot/do not take part in such behaviour. The focus is never the gender or proving that one gender is more prone to sinning than another.

I still think that the issue includes both men and women!

[wanderer]

Nura-
I think what Truth Seeker is trying to say is that at the time, since women and men occupied different spheres of life, groups of them were backbiting each other, so a verse was sent down admonishing them. This is no way indicates that one of these groups is more prone to backbiting than the other.
Regards
wanderer

[Amira]

I think Nura was right. Women mostly interacted with other women, which means they were probably mentioned separately to emphasize justice with each other. Maybe the verse was meant to show that backbiting could also happen in the domestic setting.

Also, it's possible that this verse was revealed in reference to an incident that just involved women. The same way, the homosexual men with Prophet Lot were singled out because they were the ones who had sinned in context of the verse.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

All I am trying to highlight is that the same message is being repeated twice. Firstly to everyone, then specifically to women. Obviously it wants them to pay more attention to it like a warning almost.The reason why can be interpreted in many ways.

I am not trying to ignite gender wars but do you honestly believe men and women think and behave the same  when numerous studies prove otherwise. It does not mean that one is better than the other, just different.

When the Qur'an uses the term 'flesh of your brothers', it is masculine plural which includes both genders.

You mention war and mostly men fighting in them due to them being stronger which I agree with. But I also believe that they are more agressive than women due to their physiological differences.

There are clear differences  between the sexes and I think it would be dishonest of us to ignore them.

[Nura]

Salam Truth Seeker

I did not say there aren't physiological or behavioral differences between men and women. But what you are implying is that women are more prone to gossiping.

Then by your own logic men are more prone to exhibit homosexual behavior since men are singled out in that way. I am sorry but apart from physiological differences, there are no concrete proof that women are more querrelsome or men are more likely to be homosexuals. The Quran does not imply this nor does medical science or psychology.

Yes men and women react differently when exposed to different stimuli. Both mental and physical stimuli. But, there is no study where women were proven to be more prone to fighting and backbiting. Plus, there are always anamolies, there are women who are stronger than an average man, there are men who love to gossip. Behaviour is not something that is concrete between genders, it is fluid. Both genders are capable of behaving anyway they want. Psychology does not say that all men are aggressive and all women are submissive, a lot of factors have to be considered, and behaviour is a very subjective issue.

Yes the term 'flesh of brothers' is masculine pronoun and it can include both genders. I agree. My message was all along this, that both men and women are the subject in this particular context. The previous verses and the verses following the one quoted by Yahya, leave no doubt that both men and women are being given a lesson on how to behave with fellow believers.

Why women were singled out in this verse? Why men were singled out in the verse of homosexuality? These questions do not have a answer from the Quran. It is as it is. We are not told any such thing in the Quran that women are more prone to backbiting or homosexuality is something men find more attractive than women. I agree with Amira when she said verses often revealed a general ruling in a context. Sometimes when a situation arose, verses were revealed, but that does not mean both these verses were revealed only for a particular situation. Backbiting is not allowed or both men and women and so is homosexual behaviour.


A verse can be interpreted in many ways, I agree, but that does not mean we should accept the interpretation where one verse paints a negative picture of any one gender in particular.

If u say that women are being warned with more emphasis then you have to also conclude that when it comes to homosexuality, the emphasis is on men. I am sure none of us believe this to be true that men are more prone to homosexual behaviour.

We have to be consistent in our approach towards interpreting the Quran. And multiple interpretation is always a possibility but we are asked by God to follow the best and just interpretation.

Btw I did not mean to accuse you of creating dissension between genders, pls do not feel offended, it was never my intention.