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Offline Student

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What is Talmud?
« on: August 19, 2016, 02:01:29 PM »
Salamun Alayka,
Sir Joseph,

I read in bits and pieces about OT and NT and their various parts with different names. I see you kind of briefly defining and sometimes just giving references to these resources. It would be greatly appreciated if you could educate us about all the scriptures (their names, their roles, their preservation, and their reliability today etc) preceding Quran and the differences between them weight wise in sight of God if possible as you know Quran constantly refers to them and still hold them in high regards.

Some links I see:

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/271720072965127

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=474.msg1490#msg1490

http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

I hope you don't mind my addressing you with honorific "Sir" with deep respect for I feel more comfortable as I suspect you're of my father age if not more given your years of academic research and Mashallah deep and wide array of knowledge and command over all the holy scriptures.

Regards,
Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Zack

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 09:49:45 PM »
Hello Student,

Sorry, I am not Br. Joseph (-: , I saw your post unanswered for a few days and thought I would give a quick response. I agree with you, this would be great if there was some articles answering your questions, however this being "Quransmessage", Br. Joseph I may feel once starting down that path it can become a whole separate topic. On the other hand, my view is you can't really approach the Qur'an correctly without having a basic understanding of the Bible.

Before posting a few bullet points, I noticed Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible  gives a good range on dating, ranging from those who seek to be critical to those who are conservative. A few quick points:

- Genre: The Quran is originally an oral recitation, designed to ryhme to enhance memorisation. You cannot approach the Bible like this. Re Genre, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_genre
- The Gospel was oral for a certain period.... This is often misunderstood. After 30 - 60 years, it was put in writing for 4 different audiences.... which is why accounts of the Gospel brought by Jesus.
- The complete Bible (39 Books of the Hebrew Bible and 27 of the New Testament) was compiled into a complete volume long before Prophet Muhammad. The translation in Arabia at Muhammad's time was in Syriac, (known as the Peshita- simple translation). The people holding to this BIble would have been "The People of the Book."

Anyway.... I thought I would start with that..

All the best,

Zack

Offline Student

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 03:12:25 AM »
Thanks Zack!

It's so overwhelming to say the least, and (May Allah pardon me for saying) sounds like it is more complex and chaotic than hadith corpus. I'm expecting a simple answer and perhaps it simply doesn't exist or so naive of me to ask one in the first place  :-[ While waiting for Joseph Sir, let me re-frame my query for anyone to answer:
  • When Quran refers to Tawrat, what does it mean?
  • When Quran refers to Injeel, what does it mean?
  • When Quran refers to Zabur, what does it mean?
  • When Quran refers to Zubur, what does it mean?
  • When Quran refers to Suhuf, what does it mean?
  • When Quran refers to Kitab, what does it mean?
  • When Quran refers to Ahl al-Kitab, does it mean people of all the books (from above) or some of them or something totally different?
In other words, or simply put, I want to have all previous Divinely inspired scriptures (translation, of course) on my desk next to the Quran, which one(s) shall I buy?

Thanks,
Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Zack

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 01:38:56 PM »
HI Student,

Going to your last question first of where to buy, is your prefered language English / Arabic, other or both. If Arabic, this is the best translation for download (although it is not the whole Bible which is generally 39 "Surahs" in the Old Testament and 27 in the New= 66). The link is:

www.secretsofthegospel.com

The articles will explain a lot. If you want to buy a hard copy, you can order it from:

http://www.arabicbookshop.net/main/details.asp?id=177-80

Re your questions Torah, Zabur, Injil.... I believe Quran studies is a work in process, trying to disentangle ourselves from assumptions. Torah Zabur Injil,  literally means:

a) Taurat (The first 5 Books of the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament) 
b) Zabur = Pslams: (The largest book of worship by Nabi Daud in the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament
c) Injil = Gospel (The message Nabi Isa brought, recorded in the New Testament)

So with that if we take 2 verses from the Qur'an as follows:

Say: “O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel (Injil) and what was sent down to you from your Lord.” 
 5:68

If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before you. 
10:94

From what I understand, "The Book" is the Bible (as explained above), and the Bible language in Arabia at the time was Syriac. This is why the Quran speaks of "Now we have a Book we can understand" (54:17 / see article: http://quransmessage.com/articles/why%20in%20Arabic%20FM3.htm)

The Torah, Zabur, Injil are generic terms used by the Qur'an that refer to the contents that is to be followed in the Book.

Hope this makes things clearer.

Wasalam

Zack

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 03:57:21 AM »
Peace be upon you..

It has to be stated that you can't take 5:68 as is, and be like "it means this and this". You have to take 5:68 with all of what is stated around it, all of 5 (and all of the book).  Can I take "قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَسْتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ" (Say: "O people of the book! you have no ground to stand upon) as is, and state "it means this and this"? NO! I need all of 5:68, and 5, and all the book to know what it means!
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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 04:30:56 AM »
Have I misinterpreted your statements?
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Offline Zack

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 09:28:33 AM »
Peace be upon you..

I need all of 5:68, and 5, and all the book to know what it means!

Yes certainly you are correct. What I wrote concerning "The Book" and "Torah" is based on my understanding of
a) the passage,
b) the overall usage throughout the Qur'an and
c) The historical context at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an

Wasalam
Zack

Offline Student

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2016, 12:33:37 PM »
Salaam Zack,

Thank you very much for your clarification and apologies for not being clear in my request, I'm still KG student of Arabic so until I graduate and able to read and understand Arabic Inshallah I rely on English, which again is not my mother tongue either  :P (so keep over looking my mistakes, grammatical or otherwise)

Can you please provide me (English rendition) resources for all the divine scriptures of the past that Quran refers to? So when I need to research/lookup any topic in them alongside Quran I can go fetch it preferably from one place if one such is available. That is my immediate desire.

I only have this trusted resource so far: http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

Thanks once again!
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Zack

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2016, 03:00:48 PM »
Hi Student,

I have given you below a couple of options below. There are plenty of free online, the links are below. Also a recommended Hard Copy translation. However a few thoughts first....

- This link I wrote gives some further input...    http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1889.msg9273#msg9273
- Generally translations are getting increasingly closer to the original manuscripts for 2 reasons: Firstly there is so much more public knowledge, mistakes in translation or deliberate bias's (often to promote Trinity formula) are more easily recognised. Secondly more ancient manuscripts found means more cross-verifying.

With the above points, Bible Options are:

- Hard Copy... Maybe just ask at a Book store for an NIV Study Bible. This will give you extra maps and cultural background.
- Free Digital Version:  In English, you if you want to download a Bible APP, you can get it from:
                           www.olivetree.com/store/home.php?cat=262&free=on
- Free Commentary on the verses: http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/ , a menu on the left has Old Testament Commentary, and New Testament Commentary.

Wasalam
Zack



Offline Student

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2016, 12:45:34 PM »
Thanks Zack, that's wonderful it's now in my bookmarks  :D

What is "Church Epistles" by the way, I see it as 3rd option in the drop down?
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Zack

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2016, 02:41:37 PM »
Thanks Zack, that's wonderful it's now in my bookmarks  :D

What is "Church Epistles" by the way, I see it as 3rd option in the drop down?

They are about 2/3 of the New Testament. Epistle = Letter. So it means "Letter to a particular church," usually the name of the letter is where the letter was sent to. A couple of things to remember on that:

- The word "church" has changed meaning over time.... It basically originally meant "Ummah", but with the "institutionalising / Romanising / Westernising / creation of formal leadership structure".... of the Ummah, the word "Church" has a different connotation now. But basically read all the Epistles as "Letters to the Ummah in ........ "
- These letters are different to the 4 Accounts of the Gospel, as they didn't go through an "Oral Phase", and were considered divinely inspired.
- The letters generally are in the context of the message of Non-Semitic peoples of The Roman Empire following for the first time The Holy Books, and of Isa / Jesus.... breaking free out of the Jewish framework and Jewish law.

The overall theme is Gods love and forgiveness is not limited to any ethnic group or even religion. (Although later centuries at the time of Muhammad the issues were reversed, in the Roman Empire stating that Gods forgiveness was only for them (-:   )

Hope this helps in framing the message of the New Testament as you read.

Wasalam

Zack

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: What is Talmud?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2016, 04:59:09 PM »
Jazāk Allāh brother Zack for picking this thread up and enlightening others with your wisdom.

Dear All - Please do kindly try to keep your questions as open as you can wherever possible as there are some very learned brothers and sisters on this forum that can / may assist. I will always endeavour to assist whenever I can / or if I feel I have anything of substance to add.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell